Sonic Matchup Discussion

[Guilhe]

Link to the War Room (main matchup discussion thread): [LINK]

Sorry for taking so long to get to the next matchup discussion. Ladies and gentleman it is Sonic the Hedgehog! Let’s start discussing!

Off-Record: [LINK] Please don't gimp me Niddo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can only use that video if it's an example of how deadly Sonic's spring can be. ;_;

I think it's 5-5 (despite the fact I can't do crap against Espy >_>), but I'm not writing it up now.

 

[Nysyarc]

I fought a really good Sonic player online the other day... wasn't much lag at all so it was good experience. I think Sonic has a slight advantage here, maybe 55-45. His speed means he can punish nearly everything we do from a huge distance; even retreating Fairs are unsafe. The only aerials I used the entire time were retreating short-hopped Nairs and retreating ACd Bairs... and I still got punished if I didn't space them perfectly (which means being at least half the stage away from Sonic when you input them).

I found that his approaches got pretty predictable though. He has no projectile, and so you can play patient and wait for him to approach. Even though he moves fast you can hit him hard if you know what he's going to do. I got that particular Sonic with quite a few sliding Usmashes, where I would bait an approach with an Nair and then immediately slide away from him and Usmash so the top of the hit would catch him as he inevitably did his side B jump cancel (or whatever the heck that is).

Sliding Usmash also works great to punish his neutral B if you catch him using it, although if you see it coming, you can pretty much use anything. This particular Sonic didn't use DA very often and preferred to punish just about anything I did with a dash grab... obviously both his DA and dash grab are slow enough to be avoided and punished with jabs if you can bait them.

His spring off-stage can be annoying but it's very avoidable, especially on certain stages. It's a real ***** on a stage like FD where you can't go under the stage to recover, but if you're on a stage like BF or SV you shouldn't have any problems avoiding his spring as long as you're aware of it. Other than that, he can hit you out of Aether with a Bair but I wouldn't worry too much about it... all-around his ability to gimp us IMO is decent but nothing special.

His recovery is easy to gimp in some ways and very hard in others. The fact that he has at least three recovery options means you'll have to keep guessing as to what he'll do. He could drop down a bit to make it look like he'll spring and then throw a neutral B at you, or vice-versa. Both his spring and neutral B are easy to punish if you can see them coming and time an aerial. He's invincible during most of his upB animation so even though he doesn't sweet-spot, a Dtilt won't get him until he reaches the peak of his jump. I find Fair better for hitting him out of upB, but you can use anything as long as you time it well.

To sum up, stick to relatively lagless moves (Nair, Bair, jabs, a sliding Usmash or two if you're feeling confident). Utilt and Uair work great as KO moves because their hitboxes stay out a while, and Sonic will be spending quite a bit of time in the air. Don't worry too much about being gimped, just be aware of the spring and various moves he can use to hit you out of Aether, don't get predictable. Edge-guarding him is tricky so if you think you have him figured out, go for it, otherwise keep your spacing and stick to what works on-stage.

That's my two cents (more like twenty-seven and a half cents).

 

[da K.I.D.]

posting cus im comign back to this.

 

[Guilhe]

I think you’re messing things up Nysarc, our conventional spacing through aerials doesn’t work much against him so you shouldn’t even bother with Fair and stick with the Nair for sheer autocancelling speed. I don’t think that’s the end of the world though, jab will stop anything that isn’t a shieldgrab and a well timed boosted pivot grab will stop pretty much anything.

My turn to contribute: Sonic can fake and resume approaches quickly so the Ike player try should keep moving always and don’t bother trying to gain stage control as (he would normally do) he’ll be losing time getting overwhelmed by Sonic’s speed to do so. This battle can prove to be quite a test of tenacity as a good Sonic should show few openings for Ike to finish him while still having difficulties finishing an Ike who doesn’t go overflow with readable spot/airdodges or without good DI. This match may take the whole time limit to finish it.

 

[Nysyarc]

I think you’re messing things up Nysarc, our conventional spacing through aerials doesn’t work much against him so you shouldn’t even bother with Fair and stick with the Nair for sheer autocancelling speed.

My posts have been getting misread a lot recently >_>

I never said to use Fair, but a short-hopped Bair is just as good as an Nair IMO because it actually auto-cancels; the only difference is that you can fast-fall the Nair and still have the same short landing-lag. I think Uair and Utilt should be saved for KOing because both come out relatively fast and have lingering hitboxes that could catch Sonic if you read an approach correctly.

 

[Ussi]

you can tech down throw in the middle of it. Spring > uair Is challenged by eruption. Sonic's Uair reachs high up disjointedly while eruption reaches down a bit. I believe eruption outranges it. Hell the lingering hitbox of dair will kill at that height

the faster the Sonic plays the faster you have to predict. I'm going 5-5. As the higher level play you reach the more reaction time you need to keep up with Sonic. This is more of a player skill battle.

Though I can see it as 45-55 Sonic as he has leeway with speed at the highest level of play but at lower levels of play Ike will surely dominant.

 

[benaji261!]

I played Boku weeks ago and it came close to me beating him. What seemed to have helped is spamming jabs, since his constant spin dashes get cancelled from the jabs. Also use mindgames. Mindgames work wonders ya know. ;O

 

[Ussi]

Mindgames fall under player skill which cannot be integrated into match up discussions

 

[Berserker.]

Sonic and Ike seems like an opposite:

Sonic runs fast - Ike runs slow
Sonic has low KO potential - Ike has high KO potential
Sonic can gimp - Ike can gimp
Sonic is middleweight - Ike is heavyweight

That's pretty much it. In other words, you have to avoid getting predicted by Sonic and you have to predict his movements. Probably 50:50 or 45:55 Sonic

 

[benaji261!]

Mindgames fall under player skill which cannot be integrated into match up discussions

baaaaw... figured as much.

Well then I'll settle with Jab being able to cancel his spin dashes so jab A LOT.

Sonic and Ike seems like an opposite:

Sonic runs fast - Ike runs slow
Sonic has low KO potential - Ike has high KO potential
Sonic can gimp - Ike can gimp
Sonic is middleweight - Ike is heavyweight

That's pretty much it. In other words, you have to avoid getting predicted by Sonic and you have to predict his movements. Probably 50:50 or 45:55 Sonic

No opposite there...

 

[Tenki]

I played a wifi sonic online weeks ago and it came close to me beating him. What seemed to have helped is spamming jabs, since his constant spin dashes get cancelled from the jabs.

fixed

Spindashes should only be used as an approach if there's lag.
and by lag I mean:
1) Landing lag
2) Miss lag
3) Reaction lag
4) Internet lag

offline, you're more likely to have to fight against a Sonic that uh... shields, grabs, uses aerials, cancels specials, and controls spacing/rhythm with run.

you can tech down throw in the middle of it. Spring > uair Is challenged by eruption. Sonic's Uair reachs high up disjointedly while eruption reaches down a bit. I believe eruption outranges it. Hell the lingering hitbox of dair will kill at that height

the faster the Sonic plays the faster you have to predict. I'm going 5-5. As the higher level play you reach the more reaction time you need to keep up with Sonic. This is more of a player skill battle.

Though I can see it as 45-55 Sonic as he has leeway with speed at the highest level of play but at lower levels of play Ike will surely dominant.

1) You tech downthrow at the end of it- It's 3 ground hits and a launch. If you hold down and tech after the 3rd hit, you (as Ike) get a free jab if you hold A during the tech.

2) U-throw> spring > U-air is called the '08 combo. Your points are valid if he delays a bit. However, if it's a fresh U-throw, I believe there might be enough hitstun to hit you before it comes out (specifically as a Special attack out of hitstun vs an aerial - double check this please.)

And sort of on-topic but not, if you're trying to talk about a matchup against Sonic mains for the sake of winning as opposed to trying to talk about those useless ratios, then don't simply throw away 'mindgames'. Keep in mind the sort of things you have to look out for. Like certain habits that you can punish or try to bait from that character (ex: if the Sonic likes to spindash > U-air, then shield the spindash and FH B-air OoS), or the kind of things that you want to watch out for, like aerial spin charge > shield to bait you to shield/spotdodge/jab.

But if you just want numbers, then ignore that last paragraph.

 

[Ussi]

numbers are just an analysis of a set of options vs the other set of options.

I only dismiss mindgames because how a person uses his options. What really needs to be there is how effective are Sonic's options compared to Ike's options. Knowing the options are also well appreciated.

The way I see it Sonic and Ike have multiple options on each other hence why it's evenish. Sonic has speed to limit Ike while Ike has disjointed range to limit Sonic.

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah I know, I'm just putting it there so you can becareful of Sonic's gimping ability though you have better KO potential and same gimping ability anyway

 

[benaji261!]

Fine... I went to an offline tourney and played a real good Sonic named AWAL and did a $2 MM with him and he 2-0'd me but both games were really close. I didn't know until mid-match of the 2nd match that he wasn't used to Quick Draw and that I could've used that to gain favor, since he stayed back and his every approach, pretty much, was spin dash attacks.

 

[TX7Killian]

Sonic vs Ike.. 5-5 or 45:55 Sonic.
Sonic can really crush you on Stages like FD, imo. His UpB can gimp Aether very easily, his Speed-Attacks are annoying and his Grabs makes a lot of Damage.

I would say it's more like a 5-5 Match-Up then a 45:55, because Sonic just have advantages on Stages without Platforms(just like FD). You'll need a good spacing game here. Things that also good work is Jab to Grab. If he charges his DownB/SideB, you should do an SH and immediately you jumped push L for an Airdodge. Or make a FullHop and then airdodge, to make a 2nd Jump and attack him. You should mix your jabgame.

Pirate Ship is a good CP for this Match-Up, imo. Try to hold Sonic Offstage. If this still don't work, you can also use the platforms for you.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic vs Ike.. 5-5 or 45:55 Sonic.
Sonic can really crush you on Stages like FD, imo. His UpB can gimp Aether very easily, his Speed-Attacks are annoying and his Grabs makes a lot of Damage.

I would say it's more like a 5-5 Match-Up then a 45:55, because Sonic just have advantages on Stages without Platforms(just like FD). You'll need a good spacing game here. Things that also good work is Jab to Grab. If he charges his DownB/SideB, you should do an SH and immediately you jumped push L for an Airdodge. Or make a FullHop and then airdodge, to make a 2nd Jump and attack him. You should mix your jabgame.

Pirate Ship is a good CP for this Match-Up, imo. Try to hold Sonic Offstage. If this still don't work, you can also use the platforms for you.

- The platform thing goes both ways though. It's advantageous to the person below the platform. Ike doesn't have quick moves that he can drop through a platform with, and Sonic doesn't have reliable attacks to hit below him.

- If Sonic charges his side-B, he can still cancel it. So if you SH/FH and are mentally committed to doing a move (F-air, N-air, Airdodge), a knowledgeable Sonic can just shieldcancel it then punish you for simply moving first.


-------

oh and my internet cut out and i guess i forgot to reply, but my suggestion for Ikes was to make use of retreating pivot grabs to counter running approaches and use more jabs, in general.

 

[★Chaos★]

if you can stop sonic's speedy moves the tides go more like 70-30. sonic's all about speed.take that away and your already halfway to victory.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Fine... I went to an offline tourney and played a real good Sonic named AWAL and did a $2 MM with him and he 2-0'd me but both games were really close. I didn't know until mid-match of the 2nd match that he wasn't used to Quick Draw and that I could've used that to gain favor, since he stayed back and his every approach, pretty much, was spin dash attacks.

this is a contradiction sir.

also, i was gonna post a good amount about this matchup since san is my static doubles partner, but I didnt feel like writing a dissertation when I came in here, an dwhen I reallised that all you guys are looking for is a matchup ratio so that you can move on to the next character., that killed the rest of my desire to do anything.

50-50 even match, jab beats sonic. dont get spring gimped.

yea, sounds about right.

 

[da K.I.D.]

- The platform thing goes both ways though. It's advantageous to the person below the platform. Ike doesn't have quick moves that he can drop through a platform with, and Sonic doesn't have reliable attacks to hit below him.

ike can run off a platform or drop through it and bair. so this statement is incorrect.

if you can stop sonic's speedy moves the tides go more like 70-30. sonic's all about speed.take that away and your already halfway to victory.

wow. I didnt realise that ike had hax like that, to just make sonic not fast anymore...

i hate you. gdiagf.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

if you can stop sonic's speedy moves the tides go more like 70-30. sonic's all about speed.take that away and your already halfway to victory.

. . . .

Excuse me for a second.

*leaves*

*comes back with flamethrower*

*adjusts settings to 'Burniation'*

*aims*

*pulls trigger*

NO

*sweeps away ashes*

Please don't tell me we just got ourselves a comboking 2.0...

Anyhow, most of the Ikes here have the right idea. We need to limit ourselves to mainly jab, grab, and nair in this fight. Sonic is fast. Annoying slow. Unless he's on the far side of FD, the hedgehog can punish your Fair with a dash grab. It's stupid, I know. But get used to it. Bair is also usable, but I find the lack of lingering frames causes it to be less useful then Nair.

Utilt, Uair, and Usmash will come in to play, but only a few times. Utilt and Uair are mainly for hitting the platforms when Sonic is stuck on one above you. Usmash is you're best shot at KOing's actually, through the use of Hyphen Smash. It has a huge hitbox: Sonic doesn't. If he's coming down from the air anywhere near you, Usmash can work. Hyphen it to get into the perfect spot and bam! Flying blue fuzz ball is heading for the blastzone.

I might add here: Bthrow -> Dash Attack doesn't work on Sonic. One of the 5 characters that it simply never hits with. No clue why, don't use it. Instead, throw him onto a platform, or all of the stage.

As seen in my outstanding video, Sonic's spring is a pain. Even with SAFs it sucks when recovering. It's also the reason why Pirate Ship isn't a sure fire win against Sonic: he can use it to keep you in the water as the ship is rising. Try to time the aether so your SAFs absorb the blow, or better yet: QD when safe to do so.

Gimping Sonic: easier if he's lost his second jump, a pain if he hasn't. If he hasn't, he can Spin Dash -> Jump -> Aerial/Spring. If he has, all he can do is spring unless he's really up high. Walk-off Fair is the most usable technique here. Yays for big hitbox vs small hitboxes? Dair is basically not worth the attempt, the spring has some invincibility frames, or something like that.

His KO moves are Fsmash, Uair, and Bair. The later of the two are usable out of spring, and he can position himself for either one. Even so, most of his KOs will be gimps. Which sucks.

Overall: Don't commit yourself to anything, wait for Sonic to slip up and nail him. 5-5

Neutrals: Avoid FD at all costs. He has too much stage control. Smashville is most likely in the same boat. Aim for Battlefield or PS1.

CP: Pirate Ship is usable, just watch out for that spring. Delfino has the same warnings. Norfair apparently is a bad stage for Sonic because the platforms don't let him run around as much. Green Greens might work in the fact that there isn't much room to be gimped in...but he can also KO you sooner. It's a gamble.

Strike: FD. Instantly. It's just a bad idea.

Overall: 5-5

 

[Ussi]

this is a contradiction sir.

also, i was gonna post a good amount about this matchup since san is my static doubles partner, but I didnt feel like writing a dissertation when I came in here, an dwhen I reallised that all you guys are looking for is a matchup ratio so that you can move on to the next character., that killed the rest of my desire to do anything.

50-50 even match, jab beats sonic. dont get spring gimped.

yea, sounds about right.

if I gave that impression I'm sorry.

 

[Guilhe]

but I didnt feel like writing a dissertation when I came in here, an dwhen I reallised that all you guys are looking for is a matchup ratio so that you can move on to the next character.

You're in the Ike boards. We traditionally don't bother with ratios as much as good write-ups, so please post your dissertation.

I might add here: Bthrow -> Dash Attack doesn't work on Sonic. One of the 5 characters that it simply never hits with. No clue why, don't use it. Instead, throw him onto a platform, or all of the stage.

Wait, how? I’ve already killed Sonics with Bthrow - > DA, doesn’t every character eventually get to a percentage Bthrow -> DA is a true combo? Who are the other four characters? When Sonics happened to escape my Bthrow -> DA, they did it through the spring. So if Marth can’t escape it through DS at the right percentage, how can he?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I just remember that for 5 characters, it doesn't work because they don't fly in the correct arc when still in range. For some reason, I remember Sonic being one of them. I could be wrong, but it could be that the Sonic simply didn't know he could dodge in time. *shrugs*

 

[da K.I.D.]

ikes spotdodge to (reverse) jab can beat the vast majority of what sonic does.

sonic can also kill with down smash, but the only way sonic can hit with it, is if ike airdodges or spotdodges into it. I dont know about most ikes, but san is a spotdodge fiend, so if you play like him watch out for charged smashes or run behind f smashes to beat your spotdodges.

if you get too happy with your SH aerials, sonic can run in and fair you before your fair/nair. you can jab to hit him before he jumps for the fair, but then you leave yourself open to running shield grabs. it like a 50-50 game.

ps, i hold shield to power shield bthrow - DA and i di Down to grab the ledge when he does it offstage.

ive been hit by it like 3 times ever, always just i jumped into it.

 

[san.]

I don't recall spot dodging THAT much o_O

 

[CeroPhantom]

if you can stop sonic's speedy moves the tides go more like 70-30. sonic's all about speed.take that away and your already halfway to victory.

How exactly do you plan to take away Sonic's speed? Does Ike have the ability to pressure Sonic more than Sonic already pressures Ike? I could say that you can take away Ike's killing power and make it a 100-0 matchup for Sonic, but I don't have any evidence to back that theory up.

I'll agree that this is a 50-50 matchup. Sonic can't kill, Ike can, but Sonic can get some early gimps on this matchup. Spring is most likely your best friend in this matchup if you can get it past Aether's SAF.

 

[tankzortz]

id still think sonic would win regardless imo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....

This is what happens when you have a MU discussion between two characters with some of the largest fanbases in Brawl.

All of the new, not educated in the ways of the board people show up. >_<

 

[CeroPhantom]

I'm sorry, I didn't know opinions and trying to help the boards were frowned upon, please forgive me.

 

[san.]

Ike shouldn't be gimped by spring very often at all. If one assumes correct DI(aka top corner of the map), there aren't many circumstances where spring will actually be successful. Spring should only work if the Ike was barely going to make it anyways, and most of that is simply covered just by grabbing the ledge.

I think bthrow to dash attack doesn't work on sonic. I tried it multiple times before, but only got powershielded.

 

[benaji261!]

I can just stick with 50-50 as the MU. Seems fair on both sides.

 

[Ussi]

I'm sorry, I didn't know opinions and trying to help the boards were frowned upon, please forgive me.

I don't think he was referring to you... if he was then

you actually had a good counter argument

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm sorry, I didn't know opinions and trying to help the boards were frowned upon, please forgive me.

opinions and trying to help the board are frowned upon when you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and no clue as to what you are talking about.

not saying you fit the description, but in general... yea...

and san, yes you really do spotdodge, THAT much.

 

[Teh Brettster]

... You realize every character can punish spot dodges in their own ways.. and spot-dodging is specific to player habits.
I have no idea why you're including spot dodging habits, especially of one specific player in a match-up thread. That's just dumb.

 

[Guilhe]

That Bthrow -> DA needs some testing, and I've just got an idea from this spring gimping stuff. What if we just QD into it to gain some extra travelling distance?

 

[Teh Brettster]

I've just got an idea from this spring gimping stuff. What if we just QD into it to gain some extra travelling distance?

No.
What?
No.

I don't see what that would even begin to accomplish. If you still get hit by the spring... there's no difference. And if you miss the spring, well, awesome job of QDing to your death and looking like a **** moron instead of at least -trying- to recover, which is easy anyway, because spring gimping seriously isn't difficult to survive....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

because spring gimping seriously isn't difficult to survive....

I'm too scrubby to survive spring gimps.

 

[Slaps]

Sonic and Ike seems like an opposite:

Sonic can gimp - Ike can gimp

?!?!?!?!?!?!? OPPOSITES?!?!?!?!?!??!?! Lol

His recovery is easy to gimp in some ways and very hard in others. The fact that he has at least three recovery options means you'll have to keep guessing as to what he'll do. He could drop down a bit to make it look like he'll spring and then throw a neutral B at you, or vice-versa. Both his spring and neutral B are easy to punish if you can see them coming and time an aerial. He's invincible during most of his upB animation so even though he doesn't sweet-spot, a Dtilt won't get him until he reaches the peak of his jump. I find Fair better for hitting him out of upB, but you can use anything as long as you time it well.

I wouldn't normally try D-tilt just considering most of the time it is avoided by the spring, and some times if not time correctly (early or late) he can spring up and Fair, Bair, or Uair you. Most of the time if I am on the ledge, and i see the spring jump coming for his recovery. I know your thinking ledge hop spike, but no! That is also unlikely, so most of the time I ledge hop Uair and his spring basically propells him straight into it. and it either kills or just damage racks. But Fair is also good, it is just my preference to use Uair.

 

[Teh Brettster]

If Sonic's second jump has been eaten and he's going to need his spring to recover,

hold eruption and say LAWLAWLAWLAWL.

Doesn't happen often at all, but. In case it does.

Wow, I really don't even like match-up discussions anymore.