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[Vermanubis]

Easy, GP. No need for personal attacks. I think A2 is more than deserving of his Smash Researcher spot, because his zeal for the theoretical side of the game is admirable. But A2, I do wanna emphasize the fact that as of right now, it is unfortunately only the theoretical side.

 

[smashkng]

The flame posts have already started... I think we should stop the Dsmash argue here for now, because I haven't learnt anything at all from A2Z's posts about Dsmash or about this Dsmash discussion in general.

 

[Heartstring]

Easy, GP. No need for personal attacks. I think A2 is more than deserving of his Smash Researcher spot, because his zeal for the theoretical side of the game is admirable. But A2, I do wanna emphasize the fact that as of right now, it is unfortunately only the theoretical side.

fine, sorry.
but really, anyone can do as much as looking at a certain move and finding pros and cons, finding uses for it in a competitive match requires extraordinary theorycrafting and admirable results/exp in a top section

i told the ike boards that there are uses for ikes counter, however as much as i tried, you cant make the move better, only enlighten uses for it, and outside of sheer prediction it hasnt got any real use (and even there, its outclassed by his godlike jab)
the only use i could salvage from the situation is that it turns into a normal move with invincibility frames if you counter olimars latched pikmin
its...err...not really worthy of being noted in the metagame
hence, i dont have a smash researcher badge XD

 

[Clai]

Honestly it all stems from people having fundamentally different viewpoints about how they view the character and the fundamental aspects of the game. I obviously can't see the game through A2's eyes, and he can't see the game through mine, so it ultimately comes down to who can debate aspects the best.

Verm, I'm well aware that D-smash is a bad move and punishable. The same pretty much goes for the rest of Ganon's moveset which is punishable against people who space well. The point is D-smash is NOT entirely useless and outclassed, because it fits a spacing that none of Ganon's other moves reaches.

I'm not even suggesting it should be one of the most commonly used moves. I'm just saying that it can and should be considered here and there. What has to be fundamentally understood is that Ganon suffers due to a lack of good anti-air options. Given that Ganon doesn't really have much better to work with, D-smash is not useless.

If Ganon is really in these types of situations, I'd rather maneuver myself out of there and try to keep myself from getting pressured. I'm just going to quote myself here:

Dsmash has far too narrow range of acceptable situations in which it can be used, it will be way too heavily punished for trying to use it outside of this range, and the benefit is not worth it in the slightest. When I'm going against a tournament opponent fearing for Ganon's life knowing he can get ***** at the slightest opportunity, I'm not going to think about when I'm going to get an opportunity to use Dsmash, I'm going to save my mental capacity on moves that don't suck.

Note how I never say that's its useless.

How in the world do people just teleport wherever they please to have consistently and properly spaced Jabs or grabs? The only character who both has the Jabs, tilts, and ground mobility to do this is Sheik. And while this does contribute to her being one of Ganon's worst matchups, she also dominates him with far superior aerial spacing (she legitimately has the best vertical spacing in the game, after perhaps Metaknight).

A combination of stage control and taking advantage of Ganon's garbage mobility, as well as keeping Ganondorf grounded by pressuring him with low-lying aerials and/or projectiles.

Ganon's air game gets wrecked by shield badly as well, and also is worse at going toe to toe with good poke games, specifically other strong aerial poke games.

Ganon's aerial game doesn't get wrecked that badly by shield. In fact, I can say that Nair alone is better against shield than any ground option Ganon has because the opponent can't just say "hold shield, lol at Ganon, **** him"

Furthermore, she WANTS you to be near the edge. Furthermore I don't understand why you say Ganon has so many more options and mobility in the air. He's clearly much worse in the air than on the ground.

Ganondorf's dash speed and foxtrot are terrible- he's really not going to be able to run away from anything. All of his ground options, sans possibly jab and his lolrange grab, are beaten on reaction and thus can be easily baited. Ganondorf in the air has an actually viable frame trap in Uair, a long lasting move in Nair, the ability to create just enough space to get moves like Aerial Wizkick to work by using his second jump; on top of all that, Ganondorf can create much use of platforms because of how superior his aerials are compared to his ground moves. Ganondorf in the air > Ganondorf on the ground.

I don't understand why you say Jiggs is dangerous on crossover when that's the EASIEST way for Jiggs to get punished for free if you know how to U-air out of shield.

She's dangerous because she can throw out an aerial at any point that faster than every single one of Ganon's options (especially Uair out of shield) and you have no idea when she's going to actually hit you. It is absolutely scary having someone that close and not having a move that can cover these options. Jigglypuff's obviously not going to try to hit you with an aerial when Ganondorf can just wait for the block confirm and then hit her with Uair. She's going to try and bait you, and since your moves are slower than hers, there's nothing you can do about it.

Jiggs straight up beats Ganon because she's going to eventually shield poke him with her unpunishable B-air, and she's going to gimp him with her D-air once Ganon is offstage, and Ganon can do nothing to anti-air her.

If you sit in your shield for too long, yeah that's going to happen, but I'm not going to sit around and enable her to do that. I'm going to manuever around the stage and try to create openings and opportunities through positioning, and Ganondorf has a much easier time doing that when there are platforms to enhance Ganon's aerial game.

That's silly. Bowser isn't any worse at Ganon at using aerials low to the ground (read: they are both ****ing terrible at air to ground options), and you're trying to argue that Ganon has more flexibility in the air than on the ground. This is the main flaw of your arguments.

And you're proving my point once again. Ganon's biggest flaw is the fact he can't anti-air **** in most matchups, except Bowser who is big and just bad enough in the air that it's viable and forces Bowser to play on the ground, where he's a good deal less certain about how shut down Ganon convincingly. Stopping people from spacing good air to ground moves counts as anti-airing, and Ganon SUCKS at stopping people from doing that due to how limited his anti-air options are. most other characters have quick tilts and aerials that can be used early in the opponent's jump to stuff their attempts to space. Ganon doesn't have a move like that.

So essentially we're agreeing on the same points but we're arguing semantics? It's kinda the way I'm seeing it. Honestly, I can fully believe that we're pointing out the same weakness, but what you're saying is 'anti-airing' I'm saying is 'having your opponent make you grounded and forcing you into ground options that can easily be baited and punished'. The reason I'm not discussing fully rising aerial spacing is because at that point Ganon can actually hit the opponent with his aerials at the right opportunities, something he can't do when the opponent is close to the ground, and that alone significantly improves his chances of preventing himself from getting pressured too hard.

We're arguing in full circles here, and frankly neither of us are going to reach a consensus because we both view the game differently. I'm not going to be using Dsmash in a battle any time soon, and there's honestly no reason for me to do so. You think there are opportunities to use the move (that aren't against Ganondorf)? Show them to me in a video and I'll probably name several things I would have done differently.

 

[Ugg]

 

[A2ZOMG]

fine, sorry.
but really, anyone can do as much as looking at a certain move and finding pros and cons, finding uses for it in a competitive match requires extraordinary theorycrafting and admirable results/exp in a top section

i told the ike boards that there are uses for ikes counter, however as much as i tried, you cant make the move better, only enlighten uses for it, and outside of sheer prediction it hasnt got any real use (and even there, its outclassed by his godlike jab)
the only use i could salvage from the situation is that it turns into a normal move with invincibility frames if you counter olimars latched pikmin
its...err...not really worthy of being noted in the metagame
hence, i dont have a smash researcher badge XD

Better moves to hype than Counter:

Up-B
U-smash out of shield

Just sayin, you probably would have had more fun with those. Again situational options that people just normally don't consider, but actually have niche utility.

I especially don't understand why I never see Ike players use U-smash out of shield, given there is actually a reasonably common situation where it's really practical in several matchups. Edgetrapping.

 

[Heartstring]

because all of his OOS options are faster and more forgiving should you miss
a.k.a: in that scenario, its not got much use.
plus oos usmash had already been done to death. its a kill move and not much more

 

[A2ZOMG]

But U-smash OOS is completely free on ledge attacks, which people get away with far too much in the current metagame. And it's your strongest guaranteed option for punishing them both in terms of damage and raw knockback. The risk of getting punished is practically zero if you just react well. Sure, it might be like 25 frames startup, but ledge attacks are usually like -30 on block anyway, and it's not like doing a tilt or aerial out of shield is really much faster.

Why does that occur to nobody? I mean seriously, I've landed LUCAS'S Up-smash out of shield using this exact method. G&W's U-smash as well. So extra satisfying on those Snake, Donkey Kong, and Bowser players who all seem to think that ledge attacking isn't a stupid idea.

 

[Heartstring]

if they hold shield, it doesnt hit, unless its an aboe 100% getup attack, in which case you shouldnt even need your shield XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

But you're missing the point. If you react correctly to a ledge attack, U-smash out of shield punishes it. They can't block it because they're -30 on block, while your U-smash takes 25 frames to start up. ALSO, the least safe ledge attacks happen to be the UNDER 100% ledge attacks. Those ones are the most retardedly unsafe on block, and since they start up kinda fast, people will try to use them.

People actually do use ledge attacks and think that they can get away with them since they're not usually punished extremely hard (hell, I had to tell UTD Zac that I was disappointed that he didn't Smash out of shield against Snake's ledge attack). You should be taking advantage of that and show them that ledge attacks not only can be punished easily and safely, but extremely hard at the same time.

What's even better is by shielding next to the edge, it not only is safe from ledge attack, it usually beats ledgehop, ledgestand, and ledge jump. A lot of people will try to ledgeroll once they realize that you can in fact competently shut down everything else with shield reliably. Note that a read ledgeroll is by far the riskiest edge getup option in the game.

 

[Heartstring]

well yeah, but so few are that bad on block, and the fact that almost no-one uses that because ledgehopped attacks are much better options...always
so at a good level on play, it wont matter

 

[Clai]

What's even better is by shielding next to the edge, it not only is safe from ledge attack, it usually beats ledgehop, ledgestand, and ledge jump. A lot of people will try to ledgeroll once they realize that you can in fact competently shut down everything else with shield reliably. Note that a read ledgeroll is by far the riskiest edge getup option in the game.

Of course they can just camp the ledge for a while and wait for your shield to run low, in which they can poke it with a ledge-dropped aerial, so shield doesn't beat every single option the opponent has on the ledge. It's a giant option select, and yes some options are less risky than others, but people are going to get away with some unsafe options because the opponent is trying to cover something else.

Shielding next to the edge is a very good option, I agree, but it's not a panacea for what the opponent can do on the ledge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

well yeah, but so few are that bad on block, and the fact that almost no-one uses that because ledgehopped attacks are much better options...always
so at a good level on play, it wont matter

Really? There's quite a few characters who CLEARLY don't have better ledgehopped attacks. Snake happens to be one of them, and he's very common in tournament. Yeah you could argue that he might ledgejump more, but that option happens to be universally the easiest to react to.

And I don't get what you're saying. EVERY under 100% ledge attack is in fact around like -30 on block. Some over 100% ledge attacks are safer than that, but the majority of them aren't. The point is you should be picking options that not only work reliably but are rewarding. The fact I don't see strong characters (well, Ganon's U-smash kinda doesn't have enough range to be reliable for this) implementing U-smash out of shield for edgetrapping baffles me when in fact ledge attacking is not particularly uncommon.

 

[Heartstring]

ledge attacking is extremely uncommon in good players, also, people arent gonig to be preparing to punish that, because good players (read: m2k) will play to punish the opponents best possible option

 

[A2ZOMG]

Good players don't play to simply punish the "best" option. They play to cover as many options as possible consistently. The reason why people can copy M2K and actually benefit from it is because his strategies are good at covering multiple options.

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure I had to tell UTD Zac that I was disappointed he was merely sheildgrabbing UltimateRazer's ledge attacks, when he could simply U-smash out of shield for the kill. I don't think ledge attacking is nearly as uncommon as you're trying to say it is, especially since Snake is considered tournament viable.

 

[Heartstring]

yeah, but tournament viable characters are allowed weaknesses. snakes being his inability to get to the ground once he's off it

 

[DLA]

A quick tip on the Snake matchup:

If flame choke -> jab knocks Snake offstage at a high enough % that he needs to cipher to recover (usually 50%+ if you're near the edge), then I'm pretty sure you have a guaranteed Fair on him. Assuming that the Snake is smart and ciphers as soon as he can. If he doesn't, you should bait his air dodge and **** him anyways.

If the Fair lands, Snake is in a really bad position. Don't be afraid to ganoncide him out of his cipher, because when the cipher hits you, it grab releases Snake and you survive while he dies unless he C4 recovers (most of the time they won't know better, or won't have enough time to C4 recover).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ganonciding when you still have your dj near the lower blastzone is priceless. Because not only do they die, you (might) recover.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Ganonciding when you still have your dj near the lower blastzone is priceless. Because not only do they die, you (might) recover.

Could you explain and/or demonstrate what you mean?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I just mean it's impossible for them to C4 recover, they can't get it out and blow it up before they hit the blastzone.

 

[DLA]

He means ganonciding their cipher near the bottom of the screen.

I actually do this a lot if I get a wizkick -> WKC -> DJ spike on a Snake at low %'s. In other words, I wizkick them off the stage, wizkick cancel on the edge, double jump, and Dair spike. If they don't die, they'll recover with the cipher, which is when you go for the ganoncide. You usually don't even need a double jump to get back after you do the ganoncide.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I just mean it's impossible for them to C4 recover, they can't get it out and blow it up before they hit the blastzone.

He means ganonciding their cipher near the bottom of the screen.

Ooooooooooooooh. I didn't catch that we were still talking about Snake and his cipher. My bad.

 

[Makke]

.................

 

[Supreme Dirt]

That actually looks legit. Like, you'll have to chase because of DI. Also, I'm pretty sure they can shield. But out of a techroll... Wow. An absolutely godly techchase option.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The problem with that combo is that your opponent can almost definitely airdodge or hit you before you can footstool them.

 

[Makke]

...................

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, it's just another option. Like, I actually haven't really thought of the applications for footstools as Ganon, so if they don't see it coming, they get wrecked.

 

[Makke]

.....................

 

[A2ZOMG]

Depending on how late you hit, you have 23-28 frames of ending lag after connecting fullhop D-air. When sent into tumble, you are committed to tumble for about...12 frames before you can initiate an airdodge. 24 frames before you can initiate an attack. If you do hit at like the very end of D-air, they might not be able to attack you before you can footstool them, but they can always airdodge it no matter what.

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[Z1GMA]

Bait more with Utilt when edgeguarding.
Ppl hanging on the ledge tend to try and punish you like there's no tomorrow, only to eat a Fsmash.