SoCal Melee PR 12/29/2013 Update

[Adam M!]

lol once you realize kira is running the whole PR you see how pointless discussing it is

 

[pockyD]

I feel slightly bad for doing this in Socal's thread but oh well

I don't understand why everyone not going to the same OOS tourneys matters. And I think people will have even bigger misconceptions if rankings are overly based mostly on how well you expect people do within their region.

It's just a sub-problem of the "everyone doesn't play strictly the same opponents" problem

I agree but I don't think that argues for either of our positions because all those things will happen regardless of which criteria we use.

I think it does matter; it's much easier for me to say I want to overtake Justin (I'M COMING FOR YOU) when we will be at the same tournaments and I will have the opportunity to prove that I'm of worthy consideration... However, if you are attempting to anticipate OoS performance, with his ridiculous track record, I have absolutely zero chance of ever proving superiority even if I consistently outplace him locally if it's only by a spot or two... I'd have to wait 4 months to pound 4 to make any progress on that front.

If the "I" was too distracting because it's such a ridiculous thought, replace it with "Shroom" or something

If the rankings are based on and reflect local results, then it's simpler to prove yourself locally and be able to see that others respect your accomplishments.

You're exaggerating my position to try to make it look absurd. Local results aren't of "no use at all," just not as much as OOS results. They are still a good indicator of skill, no reason to discard them at all. To me anyway, it seems pretty obvious that how well you do in a match against someone you've never played before is a better indicator of skill than a match against someone you've played several times.

That's debatable... as complex as a matchup can be when you are completely unfamiliar with your opponent, it can be seen as just as complex if you and your opponent both know each other like the back of your hand. It seems that you feel that this just leads to a crapshoot, but it's not difficult for one player to pull away after months or years of going even. Repeated matchups show an ability to adapt and develop your game over time; isolated matches show skill too; it's simply not strictly the same skills, and it's not trivial to determine which should matter more

In practice, the process is a lot more transparent. Weren't you there for one of the PR discussions?

No I've never been there

I hope nobody takes these personally, though I'm sure some people will, but...
My main gripes with the norcal PR are

1) No official mission statement stating the purpose of the rankings - You and Rey have brought up the national thing multiple times, so it should be included in the first post of the thread, as the system is just as important as the results, if not more so. Plus, I don't agree with the system.

2) Reluctance to address issues - Usually the panelists, especially Rey, are quick to defend and explain their decisions within like the first 6 hours of its posting, but after that, they very quickly drop off and leave issues hanging. Phil and Peter never post at all and Justin loves to throw down a 'my way or the highway' when defending the rankings

3) Lack of planned updates - Updates are made on a whim... this doesn't actually bother me that much but I think it'd be better if they were regular

The point is that the process isn't really transparent at all and when rankings are released, it's with a feeling of "when did this happen" and "where did this come from"

Plus, all this ambiguity runs directly opposite to your assertion that the purpose of the rankings is for other regions to see

I think the first question to address is whether you (you meaning anyone participating in the conversation) think the list should be a list based on digesting the previous tournament data, or whether it should be about predicting future results. Personally I don't see much use for the former because anyone can look at brackets,

I agree so far. While the results are certainly a great tool and relevant information in predicting success, that's still the extent of their use. The rankings should interpret what the results mean, not just accumulate the results.

But...

while not everyone has a good handle on the relative skill of the players in their region and other regions, which is the more interesting question, so I think the list should be a prediction on who would on average do the best at a hypothetical tournament where all smashers attend. It seems like Scar agrees with this, for better or for worse.

I don't see how this follows. All your lead-in asserted was that subjectivity should play a significant role, but it doesn't follow that the resulting question to be answered is this mythical hypothetical tournament which includes players that we are completely ill-equipped to make a proper judgment on... For example, what would be a better win; beating Lambchops or beating Scar? As you make this distinction, your criteria becomes even more vague, as you are now forced to interpret the skills of players that you have little to no information concerning.

In addition, as we all know, performance in large tournaments (when you aren't at the 'top 5' level), varies wildly with the randomness of the bracket, and you wouldn't be able to account for all that variedness. Does the fact that fox is wildly popular on the WC but less so on the EC (assuming this is even a 'fact', but I'm sure there is a similar pattern that really exists) mean that being proficient in that specific matchup suddenly matters a lot less? (or more? or really, just matters a different amount?)

So what's the point of this stipulation of the imaginary tournament? Why can't the ranking just be based on who the panel sees as "more skilled", "better at smash", etc.? Add in the varied rulesets of tournaments and it just seems to me that it's a pointless standard

I think I'll make a topic in the Melee BR and see what others think.

great, I can't wait to hear pink reaper's opinion on the matter

 

[Scar]

you are so gay

yeah i just got into arrested development. seems like that sig has been funny for like 2 years but i didnt get it until right now

also funny that that's what im quoting as i'm getting a tobias joke

all part of a grander plan my friend

 

[Lovage]

lol once you realize kira is running the whole PR you see how pointless discussing it is

you're stupid

 

[HugS™]

Hugo and I are 2-2, I've beaten Lucky 4 times so far, neither of us have beaten Larry.

You did say I hadn't beaten larry. So i was just clarifying.

Although I will address the majority of your post later, I'm just going to clarify what I meant. Tournaments with higher stakes should have the effects of their wins and losses amplified. I shouldn't have to explain why.


Next point,
I've explained this time and time again. YES, it is difficult to figure out which factors are legit and which aren't. But that is the whole point of the panel, to sit there and figure it out despite things being difficult. If things were meant to be so easy, we wouldn't need a panel at all.

And personal opinion must be a part of the panel system. It's even ok to have a LOT of personal opinion. The control is in having educated personal opinions in good/experienced panelists and having several similar panelists to balance any biases in these opinions.

My mom dies and I do poorly at a tournament, yeah it's a john, but are you really going to consider it a non-factor in my performance? There's no reason for a panel then. You want a point system.

A panel's job is not to simply amass results and put them together. We seem to be at a disconnect on this very important point.

Also, If you are to try and minimize personal opinion as much as possible, go ahead and count the tournament with laggy TV's just as you would count a player's performance at genesis. Some players shared the opinion that the TV's were not laggy and did not affect the players. So to be fair, we must count a win @ Genesis as being equal to a win at a 30 man local with laggy tv's. Let's really try harder to eliminate personal opinion if we say that's what we're trying to do....

Or we could do things right.



And as for why I feel I should be 5th above you, it's because our records against each other are similar, but my wins occured during more important times of the tournament (Losers semis, for the money) and during the most competitive tournament of this period (AG: C2C, also for the money)

When looking at matches against other players:
I lost to fly twice, you lost to him only once, you admittedly have the edge here.
You've beaten lucky on several occasions, though lucky is known to lose early in winners often (ROFL, Fly, Romeo, Yourself). I'm not saying your wins don't count, i'm just saying you should end up placing higher than lucky if your early tourney victories should count as much as a late tournament victory.
I've beaten larry, you haven't.
I've beaten lovage, you haven't this period i'm pretty sure.
I've managed to place higher everytime minus the 14 man tournament.

Again, not attacking you. I'm just listing reasons.

 

[Lovage]

is it ok if we rig the tournament this weekend so i can face fly and kira?

after i beat both of them we can update the list

 

[Zoap]

Phil and Peter never post at all

That hurts pocky

 

[Atlus8]

is it ok if we rig the tournament this weekend so i can face fly and kira?

after i beat both of them we can update the list

Dwaaaam! Watch that or be at the pool? Hmmmm

 

[Zoap]

keep posting ****ers i need something to read, Applied Calculus is esp boring today.

 

[SuperRad]

is it ok if we rig the tournament this weekend so i can face fly and kira?

after i beat both of them we can update the list

Even if you beat kira you dont deserve to be above him

 

[Kira-]

havent read all the posts but,

lol once you realize kira is running the whole PR you see how pointless discussing it is

not true. i wasnt even the person who put myself above HugS, even though that might seem to be the case. I let Atlus and Mango decide for me, since I assumed my decision would inherently be biased. They decided me (or more accurately, Mango decided me). So that's how it went.

I'm just the only one who voices his opinion. Mango defers to other people for decision that might hurt people's feelings, that's just his personality. Dunno about Atlus lol



Hugo your post is pretty legit. havent read all of it but i will later. it's a lot to sift through.

i think the most important (and obvious) thing to do right now is decide on what the mission statement is. after all this is cleared up im sure the rankings will be 10x more accurate in future updates. and norcal should follow suit

 

[Lovage]

Even if you beat kira you dont deserve to be above him

i didnt say that

i just want to keep up my PERFECT RECORD

 

[choknater]

oscar ur so faithful to ur master

 

[Lovage]

i will fight to the very end

 

[Fly_Amanita]

the period starts after the update. So recent would be this period, which would be all the tournaments from July 19th until now. People have this misconception that Genesis was a big marker in terms of ranking period. It wasn't.

Genesis was only a week before then. Discussing this isn't important, so I'll drop it.

By making the last victory the most important, you aren't giving any credit to history.

Recent results are more relevant in Socal's current metagame. This is only important for my perception of what the PR should be, though, namely an estimation of the current skill levels of Socal's top players relative to each other informed by recent tourney results.

You haven't "proved" that you can beat me consistently, there's no reason to rank you higher at this moment. What if you were ranked higher than me and I beat you the next time we play? Then the rankings would instantly become inaccurate. As far as we know, I'm more consistent in our matches against each other, so while your win definitely has merit, it isn't enough to push you over the top.

Was this directed at somebody else? I see a few quotes from my post with this response to another person's quote thrown in the mix.

I believe it should be their performances, and their performances alone. Subjectivity will not carry a PR very far. If you can give me good reasons why it should be something other than that, please do so.

Okay, you're getting somewhere, but this is still pretty vague. There's more than one method of listing people in accordance with their performance. Also, how would you propose avoiding subjectivity?

 

[TheBOSS]

why is atlus a panelsit still, gtfo

 

[Atlus8]

why is boss hosting tournies still, gtfo

 

[JDM]

why doesn't atlus enter tournies, gtfo

 

[Alex19]

for the record i kinda helped with this pr then

i had to do homework

-mango

=D

 

[Kouryuu]

^LOL

I just read through the whole thing and all I have to ask is... why the hell are Kira and Atlus panelists anyway?

 

[Lovage]

what's wrong with kira being a panelist

he's extremely active in the community and not stupid



you should stop posting

 

[ConnorTheKid]

I agree.

Atlus should enter more tournaments.

 

[The Greater Leon]

nevermind.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

ok i only got the ones on the PR right now
they're all seperate images

i'd try to get bigger ones but i'm not THAT bored

How come we never used these? =(

 

[joeplicate]

lol once you realize kira is running the whole PR you see how pointless discussing it is

hahahaha qft


kira's fine as a panelist, because at least someone cares about this, but he definitely needs someone to check him hard
i don't think miguel went to anything after genesis
why hugo's not on here i have no idea, he is by far the best choice

 

[Alex19]

is it ok if we rig the tournament this weekend so i can face fly and kira?

after i beat both of them we can update the list

lol good **** lovage

illl make this **** someday lol

 

[Kouryuu]

what's wrong with kira being a panelist

Nothing.

I just want to know who/why appointed the current Panelists to be part of the Panel. It's not that I think Kira is a bad panelist (I don't expect a single person to accurately gauge the strength of Socal). I just want to know who's in charge here.

Though I earnestly don't think neither you nor Miguel are fit to be panelists.

 

[DJMirror]

I think mango appointed both kira and Atlus when they were making the first pr



@ joe

go be a panelist!

@ Kouryuu

You too!

 

[The Greater Leon]

Though I earnestly don't think neither you nor Miguel are fit to be panelists.

Though I earnestly do think either you or Miguel are fit to be panelists.

basically i just want

my sig to show up ~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I don't think I deserve spot #2 right now, but I guess this is motivation to live up to it.

 

[LuCKy]

theres nothing wrong with kira or atlus going being panelists

i mean kira ***** lol he goes to most of the tourneys every week from what i know

atlus goes to what he can go to but always checks results im pretty sure since he likes to keep check on these thinks to try n make the pr legit

its not like theres anyone who goes to more tourneys anyways

i mean mango hugo kira atlus maybe like lovage would be a fine pr panelist

you all are ****ers for complaining about kira though

n zhu shut up u still **** lol just cuz you lost to pnoy n lovage one tourney dosnt mean anything . . .get motivated or something >.>

 

[joeplicate]

@ joe

go be a panelist!

i can't *****! i'm not from ur region

 

[HugS™]

Oh, and Joe should be ranked because he was active in socal during this period.

He certainly couldn't be ranked in norcal since he hasn't been playing there, so I don't see why he'd just float around without being ranked.

And the panel should really consider a top 15 at this point. The talent is increasing. You got ROFL, macD, Bone, Joe, alex, S2j, and P, who coulda been ranked for a while if he wanted to be.

 

[pockyD]

if you rank joe, you shouldn't rank zhu (or macd)

it really just makes no sense to rank both

 

[The Greater Leon]

dont rank joe because he cant be ranked in norcal if hes ranked in socal

the 'we'll leave when both matches are done at the same time' syndrome will be in full effect

 

[Lovage]

i hate that ****

one TV just has to be the bigger man

 

[HugS™]

I don't see why he can't be ranked in both regions.

If he took residence in the region, and he attended enough tournaments to be considered active, he should be ranked.

Zhu attended 2 active gamers tournametns in socal, and had become a resident towards the end.
MacD has clearly been a resident of Socal as well.

They could both be ranked in socal, as well as norcal for this period.

Or are we trying to rank players that currently represent our region? In a way where you'd rank joe based on his performances in Socal as if he was a Norcal player playing out of region?
I guess that works.

 

[Zoap]

We traded MacD and Zhu for Tofu and Joe, with the eventual pickup of lovage.

This is pretty much common knowledge.

 

[The Greater Leon]

bascially theyre dum and wont rank him

 

[HugS™]

LoL zoap, this ain't a league where you can trade around players.

This sounds like something Mango agreed to.