SoCal Melee Community

[Adam M!]

i think falco might have the advantage in fox/falco and sheik might have the advantage in falco/sheik. but im not going to act like i know that much <_<

agreed w/ both. i also feel falco beats marth but fox loses to marth.

why do you put sheik ahead of fox?

fox is mad overrated. his metagame has stagnated. his recovery is worse than falco's (i wish a mutha****a would argue me on this) and any other high tier. sheik outcamps all other characters (including falco), has the best recovery and has the best un-DIable combos. really i think sheik is the only character who can challenge falco for best in the game.

i dont agree that puff is > than sheik. i think it's 60:40 in sheik's favor, but sheik can put up a wall that puff just can't get through. sheiks might think puff wins cuz they get rested like noobs.

honestly i think anyone who thinks puff is one of the four best characters is smoking crack. she has the novelty thing going for but when you get down to brass tacks ladies and gentlem4n she freaking dies at 60-70% and has no true shield pressure. all she has is bair LOL

 

[Jack of Blades!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNOjPUfX7pw

hilarious commentary

You want me to tell you how big these pizza slices are? They are so big... they are so big... forget about it forget about it.

I loved every second of that video.

 

[Kouryuu]

marth sux imo, very very difficult to play at highest level

What do you mean by difficult? Execution wise? If so, then that's irrelevant. Regardless of how difficult a character is to play has no bearing on how good the character actually is.

Marth is a great character (top 5 for sure).

As far as the tier listing goes, I believe it's:

1. Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Puff (no particular order)

2. Peach/Falcon/IC (no particular order)

Melee is very balanced when it comes to these eight characters. After these eight, it will probably be something like...

3. Samus/Ganon

4. Doc

I really don't know/care for the rest.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i love how this debate comes up in any thread completely irrelevant always. i think it just comes up so much since everyone has a different view on the tier list no matter what. and everyone has their own experience with each character differently so everyone has a bias.


to durr;

how do you see falcos recovery as better? i guess ill be that motha****a :D

i tried thinking about it but i honestly can't find a way.

i personally don;t think fox has 'stagnated' either. his metagame has been changing alot for years now. go compare the best fox to something like mango's fox now, i'd say thats drastic. doesn't matter if its mango, it's the fact that fox has that potential.

lastly shiek has the best recovery? i dont think it's better over fox, or jiggs, or a few others actually.

not trying to have sum negative argument, i'm just interested in your points.

 

[pockyD]

his recovery is worse than falco's (i wish a mutha****a would argue me on this)

i'd like to hear it

standard stuff... up-b and side-b are longer, up-b has fire in startup

what does falco have besides a slightly better double jump and maybe a scarier dair (i'm not sure how important this would even be)?

 

[SuperRad]

illusionbird is a meteor!!

 

[LooksLikePit]

illusionbird is a meteor!!

this says it all

falco's recovery>fox's

 

[Adam M!]

i love how this debate comes up in any thread completely irrelevant always. i think it just comes up so much since everyone has a different view on the tier list no matter what. and everyone has their own experience with each character differently so everyone has a bias.

agreed

i personally don;t think fox has 'stagnated' either. his metagame has been changing alot for years now.

i think i'll have to see how broken fox is once people exploit shine out of shield to wd more before i say for sure.

lastly shiek has the best recovery? i dont think it's better over fox, or jiggs, or a few others actually.

non-floaty edition, altho puff's recovery doesn't matter all that much cuz she dies so easily. sheik's recovery is amazing, sheiks just suck with her. turning into zelda helps a lot, but more importantly the explosion in the upb. you can always land on the very edge of the stage or on the ledge; your opponent can never cover both / punish landing on the ledge hard enough for you not to get back the second time. and imagine if someone could master the KDJ (landing close neough to the ledge that you fall on the ledge when your opponent gets off the ledge to punish you).

i'd like to hear it

standard stuff... up-b and side-b are longer, up-b has fire in startup

what does falco have besides a slightly better double jump and maybe a scarier dair (i'm not sure how important this would even be)?

yeah you're right that no fire in the startup is a big negative.

but first off i need to clarify what i mean by recovery. to me recovery from the ledge is a MASSIVE MASSIVE thing, and no character in the muh****in game does it better than falco cept maybe puff. he just has too many options, and the thing is all his options lead right into aggression if your opponent is the slightest bit off. i think recovering from the ledge is one of the three or four most important things in this game.

his forward b is also just too hard to react to consistently. that plus the ability to shorten it at will... that and his upb being so short is actually a POSITIVE in many respects. it's insanely difficult to cover all his angle options because the timing is quite unforgiving.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

agreed



i think i'll have to see how broken fox is once people exploit shine out of shield to wd more before i say for sure.

For sure. I just recently saw eggm or eggz, forgot which, do the SOOS to WD. Was way impressive. First time i've seen it. I'm sure more will learn it overtime, and it will ****.

non-floaty edition, altho puff's recovery doesn't matter all that much cuz she dies so easily. sheik's recovery is amazing, sheiks just suck with her. turning into zelda helps a lot, but more importantly the explosion in the upb. you can always land on the very edge of the stage or on the ledge; your opponent can never cover both / punish landing on the ledge hard enough for you not to get back the second time. and imagine if someone could master the KDJ (landing close neough to the ledge that you fall on the ledge when your opponent gets off the ledge to punish you)..

never knew about the KDJ thing, yeah my sheik friend complains so hard about the recovery, saying it's terrrrrrrible. And i dont know enough about it to argue it, but clearly it's not that bad. I just feel like the option to do a getup from the ledge - > attack while shiek trys to recover does hurt sheik alot yeah?

 

[Little England]

meh. Falco's shorter upB is in no way better. Just regrab the ledge for invincibility and then react if he goes onto the stage. No guessing/trickiness.

 

[Adam M!]

meh. Falco's shorter upB is in no way better. Just regrab the ledge for invincibility and then react if he goes onto the stage. No guessing/trickiness.

yeah it is, why do you think the vast majority of falcos upb just far enough away where they can sweet spot, go up and get the stage, go forward and get the stage, or do a really sharp angle up where you have to guess if they're going for the stage or the ledge and if you try to attack off the ledge to cover one of the former options you miss and they get the ledge.

watch larry to see what i mean.

all falco has to do is have enough trixies so you can't just sit on his forward b, which is definitely a broken recovery move (see how many frikkin attacks it goes through?).

For sure. I just recently saw eggm or eggz, forgot which, do the SOOS to WD. Was way impressive. First time i've seen it. I'm sure more will learn it overtime, and it will ****.

ya i was spazzing out in comments over it. alex19 does it in some tourneyplay vids too.

I just feel like the option to do a getup from the ledge - > attack while shiek trys to recover does hurt sheik alot yeah?

?

 

[DanteFox]

forward b doesn't "go through" any attacks. the hit box lags behind the space animal itself, so any clashes are the sole fault of the edgeguarder.

at least that's what they tell me.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

That's correct. Same goes for Fox's.
Fox also has a much better recovery than Falco, excluding ledge options. The fire on the startup of Fox's up B has stupid priority.

 

[joeplicate]

i'm pretty good at doing shine oos > wavedash grab

i can get it pretty consistently on sheiks/falcons in friendlies
obviously not 100% though

and u can't **** it up or else you end up spot dodging like a god **** noob

 

[The Greater Leon]

do-does the east coast really talk like that

 

[chiZZLeSD]

i'm pretty good at doing shine oos > wavedash grab

shine oos on the ground is ********.how are you people so technical haha

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

im not scared

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

do-does the east coast really talk like that

LOL you talking about chops in durr's signature? ****s funny they talk rediculous

 

[Adam M!]

forward b doesn't "go through" any attacks. the hit box lags behind the space animal itself, so any clashes are the sole fault of the edgeguarder.

at least that's what they tell me.

duh but it does in practical terms which is all that matters. i knew some know-it-all douchebag would feel the urge to "correct" me. it's way faster than fox's and therefore clanks more often than fox's which is all that matters.

 

[Lovage]

fox's recovery is better than falco's you're smoking crack adam
i think you're just saying this to overcompensate how ridiculously underrated his recovery was for years and years. it is one of the best in the game, but not better than fox's.

you could argue that falco is the best in the game right now but it wouldn't be because of his recovery

 

[Adam M!]

you cant expect me to take you seriously when you dont even respond to my main point of contention

it's like the tech skill argument all over again

 

[Gishnak]

i knew some know-it-all douchebag would feel the urge to "correct" me.

You're a hypocrite. and you're not as tight as you think you are.

 

[DanteFox]

duh but it does in practical terms which is all that matters. i knew some know-it-all douchebag would feel the urge to "correct" me. it's way faster than fox's and therefore clanks more often than fox's which is all that matters.

let's say I grant you that "practical terms" are all that matter (which I disagree with), so what? So what if falco's side b clanks one or two more times per match than fox's? You still have to convince us that this slight benefit outweighs the huge disadvantage posed by his up b, which is so short and vulnerable that if you're too far or just far enough, you get edgehogged, and if you're closer than that, you're ridiculously easy to gimp. I agree that he is the best char. for getting from the ledge onto the stage though.

 

[Kira-]

Kira, did you notice that your tier list is totally parallel to Sheiks worst to best matchups? lol (minus ICs or course

LOL I suppose you're right. But honestly, to what degree can we attribute character bias? Also which part of my tier list is incorrect?

I kinda agree with Kouryuu in the sense that the top 5 or 6 characters are all balanced enough to the point where skill level matters much more than the character used. Usually it boils down to who knows the matchup better, and even though this is pretty cliche and supposedly well known, I think people overrate the importance of tiers. And even if they did exist, so what? Johning about your matchup doesn't make you a better player. You can john about it all you want and even be perfectly correct, but you're still going to lose to them so it doesn't change anything to know who has the advantage or disadvantage.

 

[debaser]

waveshines out of shield are the new hot ****. hotter than shai drops.

eggm does them really well and eggz can probably do them too. And iirc, replicate pulled off an amazing backwards waveshine oos off the ledge to shine spike gimp on m2k's marth at tourneyplay 4.

 

[Little England]

LOL I suppose you're right. But honestly, to what degree can we attribute character bias? Also which part of my tier list is incorrect?

It was just an observation actually haha. I'm actually so dumb that I didn't realize until after I posted, that you might take that as "hey Kira your tier list is all off of your character bias" which wasn't my intention at all. xD

yeah it is, why do you think the vast majority of falcos upb just far enough away where they can sweet spot, go up and get the stage, go forward and get the stage, or do a really sharp angle up where you have to guess if they're going for the stage or the ledge and if you try to attack off the ledge to cover one of the former options you miss and they get the ledge.

watch larry to see what i mean.

I know exactly what you mean, but this instance becomes a guessing game only if the edgeguarder does not have invincibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOoASGMMWTI 0:36

He had his invincibility to cover the sweetspot option so Mango was forced to go to the stage. And from that distance its really easy to react to. (I had to dig through like 7 videos to find one where a Falco upB'd to recover. lol)

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'm pretty good at doing shine oos > wavedash grab

i can get it pretty consistently on sheiks/falcons in friendlies
obviously not 100% though

and u can't **** it up or else you end up spot dodging like a god **** noob

****in sexplicate

u practice that **** in your room alot or what

 

[Adam M!]

You're a hypocrite. and you're not as tight as you think you are.

You still have to convince us

i present my side of the debate and you either disagree or agree; i never expect to change people's minds. if you disagree on semantics then i can elucidate my argument. if we agree to disagree then so be it.

I agree that he is the best char. for getting from the ledge onto the stage though.

then we merely disagree with how big of an impact that makes.

I know exactly what you mean, but this instance becomes a guessing game only if the edgeguarder does not have invincibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOoASGMMWTI 0:36

He had his invincibility to cover the sweetspot option so Mango was forced to go to the stage. And from that distance its really easy to react to. (I had to dig through like 7 videos to find one where a Falco upB'd to recover. lol)

nah most of the time falco is slightly closer and slightly higher so he can sweetspot. because most of the time the opponent does an attack off the ledge. so you can sweetspot and then train them to cover that sweet spot, so then you do another option and get there safely. even if they do a ledge attack that covers both the sweet spot and the straight forward option then you can angle it high and diagonal and fast fall and and land on the ledge. that one in particular is really tricky / hard to stop.

edit: cuz the thing is if you do it right you can angle up and STILl land on the stage by holding forward, or you can hold back and grab the ledge. too good.

 

[Little England]

I'm not ALL the way there with you yet. We'll play tomorrow.

 

[joeplicate]

****in sexplicate

u practice that **** in your room alot or what

nope

i just used to (still do?) have a really terrible shielding habit, and i found out how tight and easy abusing shine OOS was, so i got good at it. eventually people were like "you should do that on the ground, and link it to a grab or something."

*shrug* i try

 

[The Greater Leon]

good **** dave

its all about whether they are fine or not

also **** falco

hit that ***** off the stage once and hes ded

 

[LooksLikePit]

I understand what Adam is saying

But why is falco's up b better than fox's? If a fox did his upb where falco's magic spot is, how would it be different? He would just go farther if he chose not to go to the edge.

 

[embracethe12]

up b isn't

no flame no game

falcos just has a tiny +

but ain't betta, no way

 

[Deleted member]

fox's recovery i think is better even with better ledge geton options simply because falco more often won't even get onto the edge

and fox has way more options since his up-b goes farther and has flame protection

 

[bbb]

I thikn fox is way WAY more orange than falco

 

[Adam M!]

okay it aint better

his forward b is way better tho

and his options from the ledge

two outta three aint bad

 

[Jack of Blades!]

Hmm if we are counting from the ledge as part as Fox/Falco recovery argument, then I have to agree Falco is better. He obviously is better at coming from the ledge than fox, and fox obviously has a better up b. I also find it easier to cancel over b with Falco rather than Fox, but maybe that's just me. Also it can kill people who mess up going out there to try and hit you. Yeah I think Falco's over b is a little better than Fox's.

edit: The question is, does Fox's better up B outweigh the over B and ledge options Falco has to determine which one is better at recovering overall?

 

[practice_mAn]

dude i just went into vs mode with falco and i see what adam means. in the magic spot he can either sweetspot the ledge, he can go straight forward, he can angle diagonal up & towards the stage, angle diagonal & up and go back to the ledge. It's pretty good!

one problem is that falco can be hit out of his up b in that spot pretty easily if the opponent reads it

 

[joeplicate]

so i'm about to leave to go back to socal for da weekend

i'll get in at around midnight, probably
things i have to do: get **** from my house
hang out with my grandpa on saturday

i'ma try to spend as much time at dunk's as possible

 

[Adam M!]

dude i just went into vs mode with falco and i see what adam means. in the magic spot he can either sweetspot the ledge, he can go straight forward, he can angle diagonal up & towards the stage, angle diagonal & up and go back to the ledge. It's pretty good!

one problem is that falco can be hit out of his up b in that spot pretty easily if the opponent reads it

yeah. but then everything has a counter in this game.

the threat of falco's forward b is much bigger than falco's, however; if hit high into the air you can stall with shine (and edge cancel more effectively), randomly up b making your opponent guess since you can fall ridiculously fast, or forward bing in his face and making him edge guard you perfectly. like vs a marth you can forward b there on purpose, they jab, then you forward b but shorten it and sweet spot the ledge. obv fox can do the same thing but speed kills.