xxCANDYxx
Smash Lord
well im gonna have to dissargree with everyone and say that the mu is in snakes favor 55-45. I do feel that snake does have anwsers for everuthing...mks approaches are punishable and nado is too.
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Snake vs. Metaknight
- Thread starter Underload
- Start date
Practical application of those options is more important than the options themselves since matchups are judged if players are of equal skill.
Executing the same stuff as MK in this matchup takes more effort imo, though two perfect players playing, Snake should win. MK can just camp and spam tornado and the matchup is still difficult, while Snake has to actually camp really well and read approaches at all times to win.
Executing the same stuff as MK in this matchup takes more effort imo, though two perfect players playing, Snake should win. MK can just camp and spam tornado and the matchup is still difficult, while Snake has to actually camp really well and read approaches at all times to win.
AfroQT
Smash Master
I'd never have a trouble with a MK that just "camped and spam tornado". If MK doesnt use all of his options vs a good Snake, i dont see how it would be difficult for snake.
Im not saying MK cant play campy, but MK has to approach, MK can not (SHOULD not) win the camping battle. Theres just no way if the Snake knows what hes doing. The snake could be losing as long as its not a huge lead, MK STILL has to approach.
How many top MKs have you even played? Play against KaySizzle. I'm not saying it's like winning's difficult relative to the matchup or anything, I'm saying you'll realize that the amount of stuff you can just safely do becomes severely compromised and to avoid a lot of dumb gimmicky stuff you have to play safer than usual (even Utilting tornado becomes dumb when they bait it and space it properly).
And YES MK can win the camping battle, MK can force approaches by threatening time out very easily. He doesn't force snake to try anything ridiculously stupid, but he can force snake to make riskier choices than he usually has to.
Bizkit047
Smash Lord
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Lmao, well speaking of him, I had to play him in tourney on Sat. On SV, I barely lost. However, on FD, I'm pretty sure I 2 stocked him. I really think FD is an amazing stage Vs MK. The only thing MK really has against Snake here is punishing his landings, but it's not too bad if you're good at mixing it up. Then I was CPed to Delfino and barely lost that one too, but it was my fault for not having really learned Delfino too much, and still almost won the set. I played it safe for most of the matches, and it payed off. MK has a lot of setups, but you're still neglecting what Snake is capable of. So MK juggles you in the air from 0 to 30%. Dthrow him twice, even game. Ftilt after, you're in the lead. Or just hit him with a couple nades. Even a full fresh ftilt almost evens that out.
That said, I still believe it's an even matchup right now. Both chars can do nasty things to each other, and both chars can **** each other if the other does not know the matchup. IMO, whoever wins the first match probably wins the set if they both know the matchup. MK can ban Halberd vs you, but then you still have FD. You can ban RC or Brinstar against MK, but they still have the other.
Oh, and about timing out, he meant if the Snake is either in the lead or only a little behind. If you're an entire stock behind, you're in a little bit of trouble. But if not, you don't have to approach. You'd be surprised how easy it is for the MK to mess up a single dodge and get slammed with nades for it.
AfroQT
Smash Master
I beat Ksizzle in a MM at Apex...He ragequit on me in the final match on delfino, i was 2 stocks ahead.
I think your wrong, completely wrong. He can time him out, but i think snake can deal with it quite easily. And i think Snake can deal with the camping 100% safe if time allows it, and if time doesnt allow it, he can still approach with a great deal of pressure if set up right. But obviously should the match be coming to time out and Snake is losing, Snake has to play more offensive.
smashkng
Smash Lord
I can't think MK is Snake's favour simply because MK has better and more good CP stages than Snake has.
I agree with you guys concerning options in everything, but I'm talking about effort.
MK just requires shallow mixup game to win. Some MKs don't even have very good chase game in the matchup, they just rely on gimmicks like nadoing when you land and pulling you away from the grenade (obviously snake has options that beat this, I'm just talking about comparative effort).
Because MK is a better character he just has to think less to win, which is why I'd say the matchup is in MKs favor, even if not by that much. I think more of the problem is just snake players not knowing the matchup tbh which is why I feel that way.
MK just requires shallow mixup game to win. Some MKs don't even have very good chase game in the matchup, they just rely on gimmicks like nadoing when you land and pulling you away from the grenade (obviously snake has options that beat this, I'm just talking about comparative effort).
Because MK is a better character he just has to think less to win, which is why I'd say the matchup is in MKs favor, even if not by that much. I think more of the problem is just snake players not knowing the matchup tbh which is why I feel that way.
Dark 3nergy
Smash Hero
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this right here
this is always why when i go into a match i dont think "oh god**** it another mk" i go "OH F YES I GET TO SIT ON ANOTHER BAT ITS GONNA BE ****ING GREAT I LOVE SITTING ON ****ING BATS ALL DAY EVERYDAY F YEA MAN IMMA BE SITTIN ON SOME BATS"
AfroQT
Smash Master
None of those Gimmicks SHOULD work on Snakes that know how to deal with them. Snake can deal with every Nado gimmick MK has ridiculously well, to the point where Nadoing shouldnt even be considered a very safe option for MK.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Razer it's not about how many options, it's about how powerful those options are. If Snake predicts or guesses right, it's a crap ton of damage
you don't need to chase MK in the air when he dair camps, because as I have learned from playing Ally countless times, there are so many things you can do with grenades, especially on stages like Frigate or Castle Seige or Yoshi's with sloped surfaces you can bounce it at them covering a HUGE radius to hit MK on the ground or in the air
Getting a lead and camping is a good strategy except what if you got the lead then camped. Ally and myself and both done this to each other and it is just as effective either way. It's not easy to get a Snake when the Snake is expecting you to go at him cuz you have to.
I do not like poke because forward tilt beats it too often and too easily. It can be good sometimes but most of the time I don't think it is very good to challenge Snake on the ground he dominates there
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
I always saw Snake and Metaknight as polar opposites in the fact that MK requires a myriad of relatively easier reads while Snake needs like 3 decent ones. As jason said its the strength of the options Snake has versus the multitude of MKs. Playing with Tyrant all the time made me realize that. I mean seriously any dthrow string that ends with ftilt is almost half a stock gone. Nade to me are the most useful projectile in the game; theres always a way to utilize them in every situation. Ftilt will always do amazing damage, the one read gets you that guaranteed. And dthrow strings are Snakes few easy reads. This also is where Snake can just slaughter a characters stock.
With all that info id say MK has the advantage; but his sheer weight makes up for it. His character was made specifically to take punishment then take a stock in a second. As has been stated before Snake always has solid ground options. And im glad to hear Afro saying something about MK spacing u outside of ftilt range. I mean its common sense; if someone is right outside your range just walk forward. There is nothing in that amount of time that u shouldnt be able to react to. They space you then you **** up their spacing. Then you punish.
I too am tired of this invincible complex people have with MK. And I definitely dont want to see Snakes coming up with that mindset as he is one of the characters who has a very solid game vs MK. See MK as your equal, because as far as Im concerned, he is in this matchup.
With all that info id say MK has the advantage; but his sheer weight makes up for it. His character was made specifically to take punishment then take a stock in a second. As has been stated before Snake always has solid ground options. And im glad to hear Afro saying something about MK spacing u outside of ftilt range. I mean its common sense; if someone is right outside your range just walk forward. There is nothing in that amount of time that u shouldnt be able to react to. They space you then you **** up their spacing. Then you punish.
I too am tired of this invincible complex people have with MK. And I definitely dont want to see Snakes coming up with that mindset as he is one of the characters who has a very solid game vs MK. See MK as your equal, because as far as Im concerned, he is in this matchup.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
syonryokan is a true manly man
Well excuse me for not being a snake main and for having my perceptions of mix up game in brawl corrupted by maining MK since the beginning of brawl then
if snake walks forward MK can always retreat...and nothing he can do that you can't react to? almost all of MK's options at point blank range are much faster than reasonable human reaction time, his tilts, aerials, his dsmash, dash attack, dash grab, shuttle loop, if you're trying to beat MK on shear reaction you will lose every time.
AfroQT
Smash Master
If you walk forward and MK walks away, you won that situation.
Either way, i don't care what anyone says about the matchup. I've played the matchup, i've played the best players in the matchup (well some of them), and I think its even. Thats just my opinion, if you think its not, thats yours, and thats fine.
Either way, i don't care what anyone says about the matchup. I've played the matchup, i've played the best players in the matchup (well some of them), and I think its even. Thats just my opinion, if you think its not, thats yours, and thats fine.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
hmmm...well. I respect your opinion Afro, but I'm going with either 55:45 or 60:40.
xxCANDYxx
Smash Lord
im still gonna say its 55-45 snake...nado is the best thing mk has on snake and that is extremely punishable if u play right
heck look at ally vs m2k....m2k has practiced the snake mu more than anyone yet ally can still go even with him w/o practicing...its b/c snake outcamps mk and all of mk's approaches ARE punishable
heck look at ally vs m2k....m2k has practiced the snake mu more than anyone yet ally can still go even with him w/o practicing...its b/c snake outcamps mk and all of mk's approaches ARE punishable
Ally is just slightly faster than M2K imo. Snake seems to win at that level but ever other top Snake doesn't punish things the way he does. Everything IS punisheable yeah but the matchup can't be in snakes favor in actual execution.
On paper yeah but in practice I wouldn't stretch it past even. Possibly even though.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Redhalberd you need to think of characters at top level rather than low level, because top level is what matters and it's what the matchup actually is.
and I'm ****ing good vs snake it's easily one of my best matchups if not my very best one, and my most practiced one
**** fighting snake on FD though
and I'm ****ing good vs snake it's easily one of my best matchups if not my very best one, and my most practiced one
**** fighting snake on FD though
I am thinking top level, just you and Ally are a level above everyone else.
Im trying to compare normal top level (Seibrik/Dojo/Ksizzle) vs (Candy/Hrnut/Razer). Unfortunately there's not as much data for these matchups and it never gets recorded, so my opinion is a little biased.
Trying to assume that everyone is the same skill when you evaluate matchups messes things up but I'm averaging.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
lolnormal top level
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Lol Seibrik luvs to troll/lurk.
this threads discussion is actually going somewhere, how nice. Everyone saying snake has options to beat metaknight...you do forget that mk has even more to beat snake right? And these options are generally just as effective if not more....thats what I think anyways...I guess. Somewhere in my mind i'm still convinced its slightly mk's favor overall, but it very well may be even like alot of good players say
6Mizu
Smash Champion
this is so true its not even funny. this is how we should discuss mus. and in this sense, its most definitely mks favour.
Bizkit047
Smash Lord
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I'm going to have to say even too, right now, having played a couple top level MKs, as well as every MK in my region. I think Snake "wins" on FD/Halberd, SV is even, other neutrals are pretty even, we "lose" on Brinstar/RC/Delfino.
Like I've said, both players really need to know the matchup or one person gets *****. Top level or not, it doesn't matter.
Like I've said, both players really need to know the matchup or one person gets *****. Top level or not, it doesn't matter.
This is the problem with theory crafting too much. Just because MK usually has more options doesn't mean as much as you think. Snake has more options than quite a few of his matchups, yet they're still 50:50.
AfroQT
Smash Master
what the **** is this a joke post?
That logic is so terrible like wtf.
Essentially what you are saying is that both are putting in equal effort Snake loses, which isnt true, thats the whole point of me saying its even.
AND even if it was, thats DEFINITELY not how you talk about Mus, holy ****.
Thats definitely not how you discuss "Mus" at all, but okay.
That logic is so terrible like wtf.
Essentially what you are saying is that both are putting in equal effort Snake loses, which isnt true, thats the whole point of me saying its even.
AND even if it was, thats DEFINITELY not how you talk about Mus, holy ****.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Identifying options isnt theorycrafting, if you want to talk theorycraft, look at how our current Matchup thread is.
"Do this when they do this"
Okay
What i do is the OPPOSITE of theorycraft by immediately identifying that thats NOT how it works at all, and by informing you of the options you have, and telling you what they counter, and what the opponent can do to counter them. Thats not theorycrafting...like...at all.
AfroQT
Smash Master
What does that even mean?
Ive seen the matches, i definitely dont think Ally is "faster" (w/e that even means). It just seems like he knows the matchup, knows that he can scare MK just like every other character, realizes that MK just like every other character has to play defensive when **** hits the fan, and utilizes all of his options vs MK. Same goes likewise for M2k.
The first step is to admit that MK isnt some huge juggernaut of a character, and recognizing he has weaknesses, he can be punished, can be baited, blah blah. Thats for everyone, not just redhalberd.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Edit: Nice triple post.
Yeah, that is basically theorycrafting to nappy. He has been thinking that ever since I can remember.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Triple post cuz im legit, and yeah thats not theorycrafting at all.
So guys, I Heard theres this thing called a troll...can someone tell me what it is?
kthx when you come to an offline tournament xeylode your opinion will matter
I said theory craftin all day with no response to anything, it was stating an opinion on how I was trolling and implying I liked it
kthx when you come to an offline tournament xeylode your opinion will matter
I said theory craftin all day with no response to anything, it was stating an opinion on how I was trolling and implying I liked it
AfroQT
Smash Master
you werent trolling, but i get it
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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I have no opinion, I merely have been anaylzing stuff for a long time. Although, I have given up on Smash for the time being. If you ever see someone else from around here, let me know, until then, never.
I dont think you can be in the position to tell me that you understand what i'm thinking, but then again i doubt you're being serious anywaysyou werent trolling, but i get it
I do believe that to better a matchup talk there has to be alot of WRONG talk to get things RIGHT. It shouldn't necessarily be bad that some people post incorrect things, because it can all be corrected and let people see whats REALLY helpful in the matchup and come up with a much cleaner, and better summary. I dont think you should be so critical about people who contribute incorrect data and try to say its why you dont participate in a matchup thread you like you said earlier.
Although it does seem like you started to help out with it more which is good, I guess