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Snake vs. King Dedede

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
Nade Cooking > DDD

Thats it, carefull Ftilt and Grab Mix Ups also work well against DDD, but if you fail, you get punished hard, so only us it if you can be 100% sure you wont get grabbed afterwards, or there is something that messes up his CG (Like a stage change on PS1/Delfino etc.)

As for Numbers, its even.

Stage: Really I think, the stage doesnt matter vs. him. I think FD works best in terms of getting out of his grab range since there is a lot of space to go. Platforms... well, you can camp on them, but remember DDDs Up-Air, Bair und UpTilt are nasty too.

Usualy I play the match-up like this:

Staying near the edge and cooking nades. When DDD approaches I try to punish. Works well, I'm not spamming Utilt to get the kill like in some other matches, I just wait for it (Snake really has enough other kill options)
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
I'm really good at this matchup but personally I think it's probably close to 60:40.

Toolwise both characters are adequately supplied to counter each other, but when you play good Dededes (Seibrik/CO18) it's really gay and frustrating when you get grabbed out of dash attacks/dashgrabs. This makes a lot your mixup game just running up to their shield and sidestepping. The alternative is dashgrabbing, which just isn't safe by itself.

The matchup is mad close because snake has ridiculously heavy hitty moves like Dair and Nair but they're also extremely high risk high reward. Snake risks more with every step in this matchup and his reads have to be far more on point, which is why I say 60:40.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
3,367
Location
Allston, MA
NNID
yumewomiteru
Alright time to write a few thoughts on this cute yet annoying fat penguin clown. Rather than putting a regular matchup, I'll write a summary on how to fight King Dedede.

I believe this is our worst matchup, because both his ground game and his air game is better than ours.

If you have not faced an experienced Dedede player, you will most likely get wrecked hard. Because of his ridiculous grab range, you will be punished for things that your not used to being punished of. First thing you need to do is learn the range of that grab, its huge.

Both Snake and Dedede should rely on punishing in this matchup, cept Dedede can do it better than we can because of the cg and edgeguard. Your best chance of winning is to camp him until you find an opportunity to grab him or knock him in the air. Then you should do everything you can to keep him in the air and not let him reset. This is not easy however, as he has a few good options when hes above you:

1. Bair, never Usmash him, he will ff bair to outprioritize the mortar AND hit you in the ending lag, that move lasts a looonnggg time, longer than our air dodge iirc.

2. Double Jump Dair, you can shield it on reaction, and punish it with OOS uair if you are fast enough, Dair's hitbox doesnt last as long as its animation, so learn when its gone so you can punish it.

3. Stall with multiple jumps, because of his 5 air jumps, you cannot predict his landing as easily, so just stay under him and wait for him to land, dont hold shield because he can hit you when your shield gets smaller.

4. FF AD, Dedede falls like a rock, he can land on the ground really quickly this way, and if you dont react fast enough he can buffer a grab and grab you when he lands. It's best for you to stay on the ground, because if you jump, he can land before you can and punish you.

5. Inhale, Basically a grab that he can start in the air, it has some startup lag so you should be able to react to it. As long as you are playing it safe and not running into him you can punish it. Know that it has a grab hitbox and a wind hitbox that draws you in, you can shield the wind hitbox, then roll away from it or sometimes roll behind him.

Aside from keeping him in the air, you should try to put him offstage. When he's at high percents and you sent him off stage to the side, nikita immediately, if the nikita gets to him before he gets to the stage, he will have to airdodge it and use up b to recover. When he uses Upb he will either have to land on the stage or cancel it to grab the ledge. If you predict he will grab the ledge, get there before him and take that stock. If hes going for the stage you can time a uair/utilt or shield the hitboxes and punish his landing. You can also nair him, but he can get out with good SDI. Or if hes coming from really low, grab him as hes coming up, then dthrow ->ftilt and force him to upb again.


Thats pretty much it for keeping him in the air/offstage, I'll write summaries on what you should do to recover and what to do when your both on the ground laters.

btw, I think this matchup is 60:40, but I'm willing to take 55:45 if assuming that I'm a worse player than my playing partner DaWall.

As for stages, you don't want to play him on Rainbow Cruise, Delfino isnt good against him either. Other than that it's preference, none of the other stages doesnt really sway the matchup that much.
 

ErikG

Smash Ace
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
615
Location
Agawam, MA
How would Halberd act as a CP? The low ceiling and short length of the flying portion of that stage would help us with U-tilt kills and it shortens his chain grab a smidgen. The only thing against that I can think of is that his U-tilt also kills early.

edit: saying Halberd is a good CP is like saying money let's you buy stuff.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
3,367
Location
Allston, MA
NNID
yumewomiteru
Personally I don't really like Halberd as a CP vs Dedede. First off, the reason Dedede's cg hurts us so bad is because it puts us off stage, each dthrow deals like 4% after its staled a little, so the damage is not that big of a deal. I rather have a bigger stage so I can land better against him, plus that platform in the middle hurts because if we land on it it puts us in a bad position. So no on Halberd imo.

Btw, forgot to mention something, when you hit Dedede offstage, dont immediately snakedash and dont stay too close to the ledge. Dedede can Dedecide you if you're not careful, and he can ledgehop Dedecide you if you are too close to the ledge.
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
Drop a nade at the ledge if you're fighting a dedecide happy DDD. They'll just swallow it and die.
 

RATED

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,627
Location
The Grand Line... PR
granade grab > DDD's running grab

DDD's Standing grab > granade grab

Snake boost grab(the one used to chain grab air release falco) > DDD's running grab and a great tool to techase easily.

DDD's Ftilt > granade stance waiting for grab

granade stance backwards > DDD's ftilt if u shield that tilt since the explotion will hit DDD

DDD's running grab > granade stance backwards


I continue later XD correct me if I am wrong.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
if he spaces an ftilt perfectly it doesn't matter if you pivot nade or not, he's safe, you could backwards walk at him but that's just insanely limiting your options
 

yummynbeefy

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,150
Location
DEY TUK ER JERBS!!! (Tampa, FL)
from what i understand

i remember talking to seibrik about this matchup one time and i remember him saying

"it really isnt bad for snake at all when he gets past the chaingrab its REALLLL even"
 

RATED

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,627
Location
The Grand Line... PR
This is what happens when Snake knows the matchup and Dedede doesnt'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQgMDcOhEP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9UBNSHnlDw

It's still definitely in Dedede's favor, though reads still play a huge part in the matchup and other than Dedede's grab range there aren't any gimmicks.
I watched the first one( I will watch the other later) and I have to say that, it was awesome , not only the fair, the last minute at all.

I hope someday I could ditto u and that's the day that I move to florida, when I finish my studies in Puerto Rico. in 2012( srsly)
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,025
Location
Melbourne, Australia
@RATED: you forgot to mention the actual speed of the moves in your comparison. d3's grabs are all faster than snake's, and his running grab is faster than a nade grab (remembering it takes time to move forward to actually get more range). and he'll rarely running grab anyway; shield then standing grab is faster and the range is similar.
 

6Mizu

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
2,975
Location
Somewhere in the SubspaceEmissary(NC, Morrisville)

Master Raven

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
3,491
Location
SFL
from what i understand

i remember talking to seibrik about this matchup one time and i remember him saying

"it really isnt bad for snake at all when he gets past the chaingrab its REALLLL even"
When did he say this? He did used to think it was even, but last time I talked to him about it a few months back he changed his mind and now thinks it's clearly DDD's advantage.
 

AvoiD

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
1,441
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Houston, TX
NNID
AvoiDMe
Florida's the best CP vs Dedede...yall didnt know?
Fixed. Flawdah got Snake and D3 matchup down hardddd.

Mampam gave me da digg. Halzy bring him next time plz.

And I never saw you use mortar, which benefits Snake alot. I'll go into detail why later prob.
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,742
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Malmö, Sweden
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Smashsk
3DS FC
0318-7423-9293
Snake can camp DDD pretty well, and DDD is one of the easier to tech-chase with Dthrow. And if he waists all his jumps offstage you can stall with Dthrow to jab every time he tries to Up b. IMO it's 55/45 Dedede, due his insane weight, his ability to do huge damage both offstage and with CG, and easily kills Snake offstage at higher percents. If he couldn't gimp Snake that well, it'd be 50/50.

DDD can shield grab many moves that Snake has, but if Snake can predict it he can still hit DDD with them. Prediction is extremely important in this matchup.
 

RATED

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,627
Location
The Grand Line... PR
Snake can camp DDD pretty well, and DDD is one of the easier to tech-chase with Dthrow. And if he waists all his jumps offstage you can stall with Dthrow to jab every time he tries to Up b. IMO it's 55/45 Dedede, due his insane weight, his ability to do huge damage both offstage and with CG, and easily kills Snake offstage at higher percents. If he couldn't gimp Snake that well, it'd be 50/50.

DDD can shield grab many moves that Snake has, but if Snake can predict it he can still hit DDD with them. Prediction is extremely important in this matchup.
I think this MU is 60/40 Dedede. even if both have tools to manage with each other, I have seen and experienced what a DDD that really knows this MU can do to a snake that knows the matchup too.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,294
Location
cg, MN
I cant see this being even at all. Snake may have a few things on DDD, but eventually you're gonna **** up and get sent into the air or Chaingrabbed into being sent offstage, where you might as well be ****ed into taking tons of damage or just losing your stock. He's probably the worst when it comes to juggling snake IMO, and he builds up damage sooo fast.
 
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