just because something works doesn't mean that something else can't work better -_-
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SMASHPOCALYPSE:: SPOC IX in February? Link to SPOC VIII results in OP
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
Niko45
Smash Master
Sorry if it is unclear from my post but my point is that the median and the mean are not the same thing and that by using the random system over time you will get closer to that perfect advantage level than you will by just using the median stage every time.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
pocky has ignored me and others numerous times in the past while using horrendous logic and trolling the entire time. I am not wasting my time with him.
EDIT: Best example of this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5403502&postcount=1391
...which would be all good if we played 10,000 random matches every match, but based on time constraints getting the median rather than the mean is an acceptable situation (especially with more stages, where it's less likely to be as skewed as your 3 stage example).
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
will there be resets at this event?
pockyD
Smash Legend
Well sure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I agree that the traditional way works fine, and that getting everyone to learn the new system is more of a chore than it seems on the surface, largely because people are idiots.
I only really brought it up this time because people were already discussing rules changes... if you're going to change the rules anyway, may as well change it to something even better
I ALWAYS go out of my way to respond to every point I disagree with, no matter how irrelevant. That's the main reason everyone gets annoyed with me. Saying that I purposely ignore arguments is itself one of the most ignorant statements I've read in a while
the very next post after the one he linked:
i realize he's not going to read it, but i wouldn't trust his meager reading comprehension skills to understand what I'm saying, anyway.
GOTM
Smash Champion
scar do i need to offer my advice here? i think me and you both know it makes the most sense
Niko45
Smash Master
The median is not necessarily that close to the mean particularly in matchups that are heavily stage dependent. either way you look at it you're looking at changing the whole dynamic of tournament sets since the median and mean are not the same thing. Say a character is +2 on 2 stages and -1 on 4 stages the median is -1 but the mean is 0 (even). The whole fight has shifted in advantage by using the median and now that fight more or less doesn't happen anymore.
It would push high tier down and top tier up. ****in bush tax cuts.
It would push high tier down and top tier up. ****in bush tax cuts.
pockyD
Smash Legend
Well, like i previously squeezed in at the end of some post, the current system for some reason assumes all neutrals are equal, and close to some actual level of "neutrality".
The marth vs peach matchup, for example, changes so radically between yoshi's story/battlefield and dreamland that it's hard to fathom that those stages are an accurate subset of the entire stageset from which to draw middle ground
CanISmash
Smash Lord
you know why else this rule is b.s.
because its sort of a safety for people who only play one character. learn someone else or adapt and win with crazy stage disadvantage.
no reason only one player should get a clear cut choice of stages for ana dvantage and the other one to not get it.
if you had another character in your back pocket, jiggly puff getting gayed on yoshi story wouldn't matter to you cause you'd go marth or something.
because its sort of a safety for people who only play one character. learn someone else or adapt and win with crazy stage disadvantage.
no reason only one player should get a clear cut choice of stages for ana dvantage and the other one to not get it.
if you had another character in your back pocket, jiggly puff getting gayed on yoshi story wouldn't matter to you cause you'd go marth or something.
pockyD
Smash Legend
are you talking about the stage strikeout, or the dumb hat rule?
Scar
#HarveyDent
I mean you prob should actually bc I just get the feeling that other people aren't getting it.
My opinions, which are right:
Pakman, I see your points, but the way I see it it's not clear which is better and IMO boils down to risk aversion (personal preference). Either take the chance of having an advantage or being put in a seriously disadvantageous situation, or choose the least disadvantageous stage. In your example one char has more advantageous stages so he has the advantage, this system acknowledged that.
Jona, one can never question too much. Progress is made by ignoring conventional wisdom and innovating.
Pocky, you're mostly right here IMO but we disagree on a fundamental point, the definition of fairness. Items are unfair, random spawning certainly gives one player an unearned advantage or disadvantage at any given time an item spawns. In the long run certainly these things will balance out, but then that is to suggest that all randomness is fair if over infinite trials each party is equally affected.
Edit: and to everyone saying that we should just pick up secondaries, I love smash because I claim that the options are so limitless and the characters are so free that there are no situations that cannot be overcome by skill. The proposition of playing another character implies otherwise.
As I get better and better at Smash I see that this is less and less true, but then to follow your advice is simply to say that everyone should play Fox and simply learn only those characters that counter him on a given stage, and the ones that counter those.
And actually now that i think about it game theory predicts that even then, we would all just play Fox and the chars that counter him on any given legal stage.
Cia
das kwl
can someone please tell me if spoc will be using this new rule or not. it's kind of important.
pockyD
Smash Legend
Er, this is the exact same as one of the arguments I used to justify not using the stage randomizer -_-... where do we disagree?
Scar
#HarveyDent
you said items are fair and they aren't, likewise the stage randomized isn't fair. Unless you said exactly what I said haha in which case I have phone johns, I'm not on a computer.
Vanz we will be using standard SPOC rules. Ban neutrals. Or ban a cp and get a stage strike.
Vanz we will be using standard SPOC rules. Ban neutrals. Or ban a cp and get a stage strike.
pockyD
Smash Legend
well...
I guess I didn't explicitly say it, but what I meant by my post was that the term "fair" is too generic, and that the type of fairness we are seeking runs deeper than simply giving both sides equal chances to gain an advantage
Scar
#HarveyDent
Phone johns we completely agree. I have decided that hat's rule isn't great. Also I may use the 1st stage rule on 4/04. Just to test it.
Heart Break Kid
Smash Lord
Yea ok, then Scar makes a rule that Fox is banned and you cnt use him at SPOC. Yea you'd be b*tching then while the majority of us wouldnt give a f*ck lol
Scar
#HarveyDent
Also Fox will be banned.
This includes JFox unless he can get Isai to come.
This includes JFox unless he can get Isai to come.
Cia
das kwl
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
as usual i concur with spam
the end
spam we must team one day just for the fact that we have similar logic haha
the end
spam we must team one day just for the fact that we have similar logic haha
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
lolol, he edited his post to say "FOD"
Sure, that sounds like fun.
Scar
#HarveyDent
I usually agree with everything Spam says, it's just that what he says is irrelevant. This my beef with AZ, he uses Spam logic.
Everyone: Metaknight is a broken character in Brawl. He has like no bad matchups.
AZ: Diddy Kong can beat him, therefore MK is not broken. Therefore you guys are wrong.
Wow, thx AZ. Failure because the point was made in general, it is a RULE, and as we all know there are exceptions to rules.
Similarly this is Spam's argument for the fairness of randoms.
Me and Pocky: In certain character matchups, even neutral stages give one character an advantage.
Spam: On DL64, Jiggs and Peach can't kill off the top, I camp the top platform and they can't do anything about it. Therefore you guys are wrong.
Spam's first statement is correct, but it fails to address the general point. His counterstatement to an entire claim is based around matchups vs only 2 characters vs his specific playstyle.
Providing an exception to a rule does not disprove the rule.
Everyone: Metaknight is a broken character in Brawl. He has like no bad matchups.
AZ: Diddy Kong can beat him, therefore MK is not broken. Therefore you guys are wrong.
Wow, thx AZ. Failure because the point was made in general, it is a RULE, and as we all know there are exceptions to rules.
Similarly this is Spam's argument for the fairness of randoms.
Me and Pocky: In certain character matchups, even neutral stages give one character an advantage.
Spam: On DL64, Jiggs and Peach can't kill off the top, I camp the top platform and they can't do anything about it. Therefore you guys are wrong.
Spam's first statement is correct, but it fails to address the general point. His counterstatement to an entire claim is based around matchups vs only 2 characters vs his specific playstyle.
Providing an exception to a rule does not disprove the rule.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Just for the record
1 - A character is not broken if they lose matchups. If they only lose one matchup then that means that they're a very good character but not broken.
2 - MK loses to Snake.
3 - Diddy can't beat Meta.
Let me explain my logic. You have made a claim that the neutrals aren't fair and therefore the stage strike system should be put into place. It becomes your responsibility to prove to me that the neutrals are not fair. The only evidence given to support the claim that the neutrals aren't was the statement that Jiggs and Peach have an advantage on Dreamland 64. I refuted that with facts. I cannot read your mind and claim to know everything else in your head to support your argument to also respond to that. I need you to actually write it out so I can tell you why you're wrong.
pockyD
Smash Legend
spam is dumb
If fair is a "yes" or "no" quantity...
...then at most one stage in the game can be fair, because it's fairly well established that different stages offer different dynamics, and it's impossible to them to produce the same relative outcomes. In this case, "fair" would be an arbitrary choice; whichever individual stage you WANT to be "fair" would be fair, while in that context, every single other stage would inherently be unfair because it does NOT produce the exact same results as the "fair" one. Therefore, choose one stage and hold all game 1s on it (not a truly horrible idea, btw, but inferior to stage striking IMO).
If fair is a relative quantity, on a sliding scale or something...
...then no two neutrals are "equally" fair. Subsequently, finding the "most fair" stage is a noble goal. The most practical effective way is for each player to ban the stages that are most "unfair" towards them, and take the middle ground.
Is the median different from the mean? certainly, but in a setting where the individual game matters, and not the accrued results of thousands of games, it's best to take what you have in the absence of an actual perfectly "neutral" (or "fair") stage.
If fair is a "yes" or "no" quantity...
...then at most one stage in the game can be fair, because it's fairly well established that different stages offer different dynamics, and it's impossible to them to produce the same relative outcomes. In this case, "fair" would be an arbitrary choice; whichever individual stage you WANT to be "fair" would be fair, while in that context, every single other stage would inherently be unfair because it does NOT produce the exact same results as the "fair" one. Therefore, choose one stage and hold all game 1s on it (not a truly horrible idea, btw, but inferior to stage striking IMO).
If fair is a relative quantity, on a sliding scale or something...
...then no two neutrals are "equally" fair. Subsequently, finding the "most fair" stage is a noble goal. The most practical effective way is for each player to ban the stages that are most "unfair" towards them, and take the middle ground.
Is the median different from the mean? certainly, but in a setting where the individual game matters, and not the accrued results of thousands of games, it's best to take what you have in the absence of an actual perfectly "neutral" (or "fair") stage.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
I decided that in addition to not reading pocky's posts I am continually going to link to this post when he posts in the same thread as me: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5403502&postcount=1391
pockyD
Smash Legend
seriously, back to 4th grade kid
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
lawl i remember that debate.... it was pretty epic
Niko45
Smash Master
regardless of the logic behind doing this I think it would be extremely gay if it actually became the rule. Having basically a default stage for r1 of every matchup would be really boring. Pick up secondaries or get amazing with your main and stop worrying about stages so much.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
ironic how scar(secondaries green falcon) is arguing for stage limitation. no hating goin on, just stating fact.
i personally like a little randomness. makes things kinda interesting. ppl who main lower tiers probly like it too. magic the gathering has it and its a great game!!!
indianunit
Smash Journeyman
i approve of this message
Yeah that is what it came down to for me. I prefer the randomness of the stages. I like the variety and I like the fact that I won't end up playing scar on dreamland or battlefield first match every time we meet in tournament.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
nah son let them argue, i havent seen an argument i havent started in like some months lol
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
I am teh_spamerer and I approve of this message.
pockyD
Smash Legend
oh crap i forgot i was here to please you!
sorry, resume high-fiving each other
sorry, resume high-fiving each other
I want to have all of PockyD's babies whenever I see him post. And I go to the bathroom and throw up every time I hear Spam try to argue ANYTHING.
Since when is ignoring the other side of the argument something to admire or be proud of? Pocky is 100% clear on his arguments and actually provokes some god**** thought about the game, stop sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la" and actually l2read plz.
Since when is ignoring the other side of the argument something to admire or be proud of? Pocky is 100% clear on his arguments and actually provokes some god**** thought about the game, stop sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la" and actually l2read plz.
JFox
Smash Hero
this is silly. everyone stop squabbling...
Scar
#HarveyDent
JFox please don't spam my thread.