Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Ramen Tengoku]

So does Travis.
View attachment 176235

But does he also have dual guns?
Elma does

 

[osby]

But does he also have dual guns?
Elma does

You can't have guns in Smash unless they are... whatever the hell Scarborough Fair and Love is Blue are.

 

[Royalty1702]

Isn't that actually true though?

Fire Emblem has 4 unique characters, a semi-clone, and 2 echoes.
Kirby has 3 unique characters.
Zelda has 3 unique characters and 3 semi-clones.
So FE does have more.

I think he is referring to the series in general.

 

[SuperSmashLover]

I just need to ask on thing.

What on earth was Sakurai referencing when it came to that miniature robot action figure? I honestly don't believe he purchased it to help the team create the Ray MK III Mii Gunner outfit.

 

[Flyboy]

I hate how Smash speculation is treated like a competition that needs to be won, and that people have to put down other characters in order to prop up their own. Even in cases where you could make the argument that it's just one or the other (Incineroar and Decidueye), treating it like one just serves to turn the smash fanbase against itself.

Completely agreed. Speculation is a blast but the moment people start debating worthiness vs. other characters is the moment it stops being fun. I campaign for the friggin Wave Race Blue Storm protagonist not because I think he's an icon but because I think a Dolphin Park stage would be fun. People were willing to accept Mach Rider during the Grinch Leak because they had history but are you gonna sit here and tell me that Mach Rider has more relevance or influence than, I don't know, Jibanyan? Or any Alolan Pokemon? Silly. It's all silly.

 

[Androobie]

I just need to ask on thing.

What on earth was Sakurai referencing when it came to that miniature robot action figure? I honestly don't believe he purchased it to help the team create the Ray MK III Mii Gunner outfit.

Who says it’s for Smash? Could be for an Uprising sequel for all we know.

 

[Flyboy]

So does Travis.
View attachment 176235

...What if Travis, Elma, and Lloyd are all in my top five most-wanted for this DLC cycle.

 

[GoeGoe]

Guys, Just stop this for once. your arguments about mooks for smash is nothing but whining about piranha plant as playable mook in smash, it was more like "muh character should deserve the spot, that plant didn't!"

get real for once, anything that sounds like impossible to do can happen possible thanks to Sakurai.

I'm not talking about mooks, BWD is not. And I very much plan on maining Piranha.

1. I mean, in Robobot, using the Waddle Dee amiibo gives Kirby a custom Parasol with a Bandana Waddle Dee costume. So, technically it is but isn't because Kirby is never seen with that Parasol again but Dee is in Battle Royale.

2. The thing is about comparing BWD to Toad is that there are so many Toads but only one BWD. All Toads have the same or similar personalities like regular Waddle Dees but BWD, said in multiple games like Rainbow Curse and Star Allies, is basically meant to have the personality to break the stereotype. I think a better comparison would be Captain Toad if he was more prominent in Mario games or Luigi/Yoshi.

On 1. But that wasn't a long while ago, is it?
On 2. Well, ok, that's what I'm trying to reach. So with all honesty, what do you think about requests of C.Toad in Smash?

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't that actually true though?

Fire Emblem has 4 unique characters, a semi-clone, and 2 echoes.
Kirby has 3 unique characters.
Zelda has 3 unique characters and 3 semi-clones.
So FE does have more.

You read what I said wrong. I said it without Smash in mind and the characters of said franchise themselves.

 

[Deleted member]

I just need to ask on thing.

What on earth was Sakurai referencing when it came to that miniature robot action figure? I honestly don't believe he purchased it to help the team create the Ray MK III Mii Gunner outfit.

It could literally be anything from an assist trpphy to a boss or not even be related at all to Smash. Fans just looked too much into it.

 

[osby]

Fans just looked too much into it.

That's it, this is the Smash speculation.

 

[Blargg888]

I think he is referring to the series in general.

Oh.

...

Well, that's true too.

If we're talking unique characters alone, FE does have more.

If we're talking unique abilities and interesting designs, then Zelda and Kirby beat FE, but if we're strictly talking about unique characters, then FE definitely has more.

 

[RandomAce]

The thing is we've never accepted that BWD was a generic mook and that Piranha Plant would be opening the door to him. I feel like a better argument would be that if a generic mook is a playable character, a character BASED on a generic mook should be fine.


Although once Slime from DQ becomes DLC the argument is dead for sure.

That wasn’t what I was going for...

I was going to add the fact that since Bandanna Dee didn’t fit the generic mook in the first place, that shouldn’t make PP all of sudden break a rule that wasn’t blocking BWD to begin with.

My point, was that I don’t want to see something on the same level as PP again. There was a charm to characters like Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, Game & Watch, and Duck Hunt as they offered something wacky while also showing new bits of Nintendo history, franchises, and games that some people in different times grew up with. They made some sense afterward.

But Pirahna was only really there for a WTF reaction, there wasn’t much of reason aside from that. It really left a sour taste and got a lot of people angsty rather than laugh along, and many of the reactions I’ve seen had people shake their heads. It truly felt bottom of the barrel, and I think it’d be best if Sakurai didn’t go that far for another character on the same level as PP. But at least Sakurai is giving people the option to get PP and can deny getting it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

People make it all about repping things, when really this is a video game that needs to play well, and provide a variety of experiences for any one player to enjoy. If it was about representing, and ONLY representing different series, Smash wouldn’t be what it is, plain and simple.

Characters, and the representation of game series and character is absolutely important to Smash. The game is based on using our favorite characters against each other in familiar atmospheres and listening to familiar tunes while doing it. This often gives us a feeling that certain things are added to represent something from the series.

The problem with representing series, ONLY THROUGH CHARACTERS, like Smash character speculation always does, is that it dumbs down characters to only being picked for one reason. Every other reason, like roster diversity in design, ability, and archetype, is that it basically lumps it into, “TRhe Pokémon cast represents Pokémon.” In reality, Pikachu himself doesn’t not represent Mewtwo. Mewtwo represent Mewtwo. Characters are not adding to be a “rep”. They are added because the design team decides, “Hey, a character who does this would be cool”, and they decide on a character.

There’s also added relevance at the time of addition, or popularity, but arguably I would argue the most important factors are what the characters can do and, well, who they are. Just like any single person, it’s not like every character fits any single mold. Everyone is different.

For example, Piranha Plant definitely get in by the standard of, “Series staple, is popular, is a must-add for the Super Mario series”. Piranha Plant very likely was added because it was an oddball addition like Game & Watch and Wii Fit Trainer (oddball as in completely unexpected) but I also provided attributes that allowed it to not only have a unique move-set, but also a unique play style. That’s an important distinction to make.

Basically, I wish the word “rep” would die in a fire. Sure, it’s just a word. But that word just dumbs down what makes some character suggestions/ideas/additions so great. Everyone was just concerned about who would get in for various series, and ignored what certain characters could do. Incineroar, for example, doesn’t even seem like a Pokémon. He’s almost entirely wrestler based, which allows him to show personality and that Heel Wrestler design that is exclusive to Incineroar.

Sure, characters come from series. But characters should be looked at as individuals, rather than just bits of a larger whole.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Completely agreed. Speculation is a blast but the moment people start debating worthiness vs. other characters is the moment it stops being fun. I campaign for the friggin Wave Race Blue Storm protagonist not because I think he's an icon but because I think a Dolphin Park stage would be fun. People were willing to accept Mach Rider during the Grinch Leak because they had history but are you gonna sit here and tell me that Mach Rider has more relevance or influence than, I don't know, Jibanyan? Or any Alolan Pokemon? Silly. It's all silly.

Yes, I agree, it's silly silly silly.

I vouch for all sorts of random characters, not just because I've never been much of a picky person, but also because I like them/the idea of them and would honestly want for them to be in, whether they happen to be important or not is just incidental. I mean, for instance, don't tell me you just want the and casts to settle their friendly rivalry in the Olympics. Or to not have any Namco character that isn't from a big-name fighting game or Symphonia.

Now, in the meantime, how about we theorise on today's song? Since the DLC news are still far away, I heavily suspect the blog has enough material to last for a good while still.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Yes, I agree, it's silly silly silly.

I vouch for all sorts of random characters, not just because I've never been much of a picky person, but also because I like them/the idea of them and would honestly want for them to be in, whether they happen to be important or not is just incidental. I mean, for instance, don't tell me you just want the and casts to settle their friendly rivalry in the Olympics. Or to not have any Namco character that isn't from a big-name fighting game or Symphonia.

Now, in the meantime, how about we theorise on today's song? Since the DLC news are still far away, I heavily suspect the blog has enough material to last for a good while still.

How many times have you posted that video?

 

[Deleted member]

Now, in the meantime, how about we theorise on today's song? Since the DLC news are still far away, I heavily suspect the blog has enough material to last for a good while still.

It's going to be Street Fighter. I'd prefer EarthBound, but it'll probably be Street Fighter.

 

[Wyoming]

Completely agreed. Speculation is a blast but the moment people start debating worthiness vs. other characters is the moment it stops being fun. I campaign for the friggin Wave Race Blue Storm protagonist not because I think he's an icon but because I think a Dolphin Park stage would be fun. People were willing to accept Mach Rider during the Grinch Leak because they had history but are you gonna sit here and tell me that Mach Rider has more relevance or influence than, I don't know, Jibanyan? Or any Alolan Pokemon? Silly. It's all silly.

Seeing people justify Piranha Plant as "iconic".

I mean, ok, I guess it is...kind of? But it wasn't chosen for THAT reason. Sakurai wanted an unorthodox character that he could make something interesting with. And voila.

If Sakurai sat down, asked for a Super Mario minion based on its legendary status, then Goomba or Koopa Troopa would have been selected. But they aren't as fun and versitile as Piranha Plant.

Some characters are more iconic than others, yes. BUT once they're in Smash that helps their popularity. Roy would be an absolute nobody if it weren't for Melee. But in Smash he's iconic.

 

[The_Naraotor]

I want a Mii Mage/Wizard/Sorcerer !

 

[Deleted member]

People make it all about repping things, when really this is a video game that needs to play well, and provide a variety of experiences for any one player to enjoy. If it was about representing, and ONLY representing different series, Smash wouldn’t be what it is, plain and simple.

Characters, and the representation of game series and character is absolutely important to Smash. The game is based on using our favorite characters against each other in familiar atmospheres and listening to familiar tunes while doing it. This often gives us a feeling that certain things are added to represent something from the series.

The problem with representing series, ONLY THROUGH CHARACTERS, like Smash character speculation always does, is that it dumbs down characters to only being picked for one reason. Every other reason, like roster diversity in design, ability, and archetype, is that it basically lumps it into, “TRhe Pokémon cast represents Pokémon.” In reality, Pikachu himself doesn’t not represent Mewtwo. Mewtwo represent Mewtwo. Characters are not adding to be a “rep”. They are added because the design team decides, “Hey, a character who does this would be cool”, and they decide on a character.

There’s also added relevance at the time of addition, or popularity, but arguably I would argue the most important factors are what the characters can do and, well, who they are. Just like any single person, it’s not like every character fits any single mold. Everyone is different.

For example, Piranha Plant definitely get in by the standard of, “Series staple, is popular, is a must-add for the Super Mario series”. Piranha Plant very likely was added because it was an oddball addition like Game & Watch and Wii Fit Trainer (oddball as in completely unexpected) but I also provided attributes that allowed it to not only have a unique move-set, but also a unique play style. That’s an important distinction to make.

Basically, I wish the word “rep” would die in a fire. Sure, it’s just a word. But that word just dumbs down what makes some character suggestions/ideas/additions so great. Everyone was just concerned about who would get in for various series, and ignored what certain characters could do. Incineroar, for example, doesn’t even seem like a Pokémon. He’s almost entirely wrestler based, which allows him to show personality and that Heel Wrestler design that is exclusive to Incineroar.

Sure, characters come from series. But characters should be looked at as individuals, rather than just bits of a larger whole.

I do mostly agree with this, but I don’t think one can fault somebody for wanting, say, a rhythm heaven rep just to give the series something. Imo, I think arguing representation is fine when talking about series that aren’t in smash yet or only have like one character, but the argument gets more iffy when you get to series that have more characters. I agree that looking at reps kinda takes away from the individuality of some characters.
Unless I’m completely misunderstanding what you’re saying in which case whoops.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

That's it, this is the Smash speculation.

Let's see...
The chairs obviously meant Skull Kid...
DK is making that pose that Karate Joe did in Rhythm Heaven Fever
The clouds in K.Rool's Trailer are referencing Rayman
Sakurai bought a mech for research, it's gotta be Elma

I'm mocking this and all, but I did believe the latter one for a while

ow, in the meantime, how about we theorise on today's song? Since the DLC news are still far away, I heavily suspect the blog has enough material to last for a good while still.

Guile's Theme

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Oh.

...

Well, that's true too.

If we're talking unique characters alone, FE does have more.

If we're talking unique abilities and interesting designs, then Zelda and Kirby beat FE, but if we're strictly talking about unique characters, then FE definitely has more.

Agreed, FE could practically have its own Smash game, part of the reason it has so many characters in Smash is because there's such a crazy amount of potential in the series and how character-driven it is at the same time. As far as series in Smash go it's probably only outdone by Pokémon in this regard.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I just need to ask on thing.

What on earth was Sakurai referencing when it came to that miniature robot action figure? I honestly don't believe he purchased it to help the team create the Ray MK III Mii Gunner outfit.

He just wanted an excuse to buy it so that his wife doesn't chastise him for spending money on it...

 

[osby]

I want a Mii Mage/Wizard/Sorcerer !

How? Mage isn't really a fighting game archetype. Three Miis we have are, though: Close, medium, long range combat.

 

[GoeGoe]

*sigh*

Guess I gotta do it to 'em.

Bandana Dee first appeared in Super Star as the first opponent of Megaton Punch. A very small role, but a very early start nonetheless.

Following this, Bandana Dee received an upgrade in Super Star Ultra, where he gained a speaking role as Dedede's right-hand-man. He also was present as the only audience member during the Masked Dedede fight.

Bandana Dee's role really starts to take off in the period after Super Smash Bros Brawl. Keep in mind that since Brawl, Bandana Dee has actually had more appearances than Meta Knight. Yes, he's that important.

Bandana Dee's first playable role was in Return to Dreamland. He immediately sets himself apart from other Waddle Dees as the only one capable of wielding the Spear moveset. In addition, he appears in all of the cutscenes and is viewed as part of the core cast of 4 characters.

Following this, Bandana Dee took a support role in both Kirby: Triple Deluxe and Kirby: Planet Robobot.

Between these two titles, Bandana Dee had another playable role in Kirby and the Rainbow Curse. In this game, Bandana Dee is the ONLY playable character other than Kirby, putting much more of a spotlight on him.

Then we come to the 3DS e-shop titles, Clash Deluxe and Battle Royale. In one, Bandana Dee has another speaking role as a voice of friendly advice in the hub. In the other, Bandana Dee has a speaking role, AND is your in-game partner. He is cemented as Kirby's best friend and gains his own distinctly-colored parasol in addition to his Spear, which he is still the only user of.

Cut to Star Allies, where Bandana Dee is the ONLY Dream Friend available at the start of the game, essentially the de-facto Player 2 character. In addition to this, with the removal of the Spear ability, Bandana Dee's moveset is now entirely unique to the cast. In one of the extra Puzzles that can be assembled, Kirby and Bandana Dee take center stage at the Fountain of Dreams, while Meta Knight and King Dedede are relegated to the background.

Combine all of this with Bandana Dee constantly appearing in group shots with the other 3 core cast members, and it's inarguable that he's distinguished himself as a core member of the cast with his own unique skillset and personality.

Find me a Goomba that does that.

I think I can if I went through Paper Mario and Mrio & Luigi series. But that's not my point. I respect your choice but I still don't get why he's high on demand. My only guess is that fans are suggesting to Sakurai the obvious, which he usually don't look at. Like, hey Sakurai, that's your game, that's your charcater.. choose him.

a piranha plant is literally in the game
a random mook
who's not even the most iconic enemy from its series
who doesn't seem like it would be able to have any SEMBLANCE of an actual moveset
is playable in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch

There are no rules anymore, buddy. To hell with unique-ness

Oohh I so do agree. Way before that, since Brawl.
I do think that Piranha is unique however.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

How many times have you posted that video?

Couldn't say, maybe about half a dozen times. It is definitely useful to emphasize a point, at least.

It's going to be Street Fighter. I'd prefer EarthBound, but it'll probably be Street Fighter.

I guess it might be something from Sonic, nothing shown off from that so far.

Oohh I so do agree. Way before that, since Brawl.

It's telling how exciting 's reveal was to me, compared to how I didn't react much to . The discovery of a new frontier, that.

 

[NineS]

You're all pretty argumentative right now, aren't you?

You know, still baffled I haven't gotten into an argument about why or why not 2B could be in Smash, even before we found out when DLC would be decided.

I haven't even had to do something as outrageous as state why Don chan could be a fighter.

Instead, we've argued about characters that actually make sense and all have high chances, treating them as entirely unlikely or impossible in favor of another character, with all these headcanons about how smash works.

 

[staindgrey]

Agreed, FE could practically have its own Smash game, part of the reason it has so many characters in Smash is because there's such a crazy amount of potential in the series and how character-driven it is at the same time. As far as series in Smash go it's probably only outdone by Pokémon in this regard.

I'd legit get hyped for a Fire Emblem fighting game.

Long as it didn't pull a Warriors and make the roster suck.

 

[Royalty1702]

On 1. But that wasn't a long while ago, is it?
On 2. Well, ok, that's what I'm trying to reach. So with all honesty, what do you think about requests of C.Toad in Smash?

1. Rainbow Curse came out two years ago and Battle Royale one year ago.

2. My thing is that I don't know how he would play. Captain Toad mainly relies on Power-Ups while characters like BWD uses his spear and parasol. Even Piranha Plant has shown his own attacks without the use of Power-Ups. Don't get me wrong, using Power-Ups is alright but if that's your only way of attack then I'll just be confused.

Then again, Falcon's moveset came out of thin air, so I guess this point is moot.

I think besides that Captain Toad's alright.

 

[Will]

Goomba with a hat arguement? Seriously?

**** it ill just post two images back to back and be done

Listen, I gotta play devil's advocate here.

You're implying BWD is a joke character. Piranha Plant being a mook is the joke.

 

[staindgrey]

You're all pretty argumentative right now, aren't you?

You know, still baffled I haven't gotten into an argument about why or why not 2B could be in Smash, even before we found out when DLC would be decided.

I haven't even had to do something as outrageous as state why Don chan could be a fighter.
View attachment 176239

Instead, we've argued about characters that actually make sense and all have high chances, treating them as entirely unlikely or impossible in favor of another character, with all these headcanons about how smash works.

I think people only argue with "threats". As if they're convincing themselves your character pick has a lower chance than their character pick just as much as they're trying to convince you.

When you ask for 2B or I ask for Hawke, people are just thinking, "Aw, that's adorable. Now back to that Geno discussion."

In the buildup to Smash 4, I remember getting a lot of flack here for daring to ask for Daisy. She's undeserving, just another Peach, just from sports games, isn't Geno, etc. That's because she actually had a tangible chance of "usurping" a more "deserving" character, since she was a well-known Nintendo property.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's going to be Street Fighter. I'd prefer EarthBound, but it'll probably be Street Fighter.

I'm going to suffer anxiety until we get confirmation Rashid's theme is or isn't in the game

 

[FalcoXP]

I just need to ask on thing.

What on earth was Sakurai referencing when it came to that miniature robot action figure? I honestly don't believe he purchased it to help the team create the Ray MK III Mii Gunner outfit.

Well, we still dont know anything about the DLC content...

So, we will see...

 

[-BigSharkZ-]

Hey all. I haven't posted in here since the Brawl days, so this feels a bit nostalgic to me.

I made a poll with over 500 choices (excluding Assist Trophies), wondering who you'd like to see in the Fighter Pass? You can vote for more than 5 characters:
https://www.buildquizzes.com/poll2136023x67984Ab7-60

Let me know if there's any obvious character missing, tried my best to cater to everyone's tastes.

 

[Idon]

Listen, I'll be the first to admit I don't like PP. Either as an individual character or as what people are saying is a "representative to the iconic Mario series enemies."

But honestly you can't really take its inclusion as a sign of anything to come.
He's a shock/joke character and Sakurai realizes this. Pulling off the same thing wouldn't work as well the second time.
He's an exception, not a rule.

 

[staindgrey]

I'm going to suffer anxiety until we get confirmation Rashid's theme is or isn't in the game

Am I the only SFV player who really doesn't care for Rashid's theme?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I'd legit get hyped for a Fire Emblem fighting game.

Long as it didn't pull a Warriors and make the roster suck.

An Arcsys FE games would be incredible, I'm not even that big of a fan of the series, but that'd be a Day 1 purchase for me.

 

[Idon]

Am I the only SFV player who really doesn't care for Rashid's theme?

RA
SHID
NO.

 

[FalcoXP]

It's going to be Street Fighter. I'd prefer EarthBound, but it'll probably be Street Fighter.

I think we need more "battle themes" of the universe of Earthbound. The majority of Mother Universe music are music of places or towns.

Would be happy with a mix/medley

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Guys, I think I figured out a really good list of reasons why Sakurai picks characters-

1) He thinks they'll make for really fun characters to play.
2) He wants to try to give the fanbase what we want as much as he can.




...
3) It markets an upcoming Fire Emblem game or the most recent Pokemon game.

There doesn't have to be a 'reason' as to why Piranha Plant, or any other character makes it in. If Sakurai thinks they'll be fun to play, or if the fanbase makes it extremely clear what we want, Sakurai will implement a character with the ultimate goal of just including as many fun ideas as possible. We can postulate all we want that 'Piranha Plant is there to blow away the mook argument', or 'he's there because he's an iconic gaming minion', or even 'he's there because lmao gotta have a weird character' but at the end of the day it should at least be agreed he's here because Sakurai believes he'll be fun, and it seems like he's done his job because the fanbase seems pretty excited for Piranha Plant (for the most part).

EDIT: GoeGoe Having played each of them, you won't. Paper Mario has no major recurring characters beyond the 4 mains and a few cameos, and Mario & Luigi only have Fawful and Starlow for major recurring characters. The closest either has to a vaguely important recurring character based on a mook is the Elite Trio from 2 Mario & Luigi games, and they do barely anything in the 2 games they appear in.