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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
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I anticipated that we'd have another ESRB-situation on our hands at one point. I didn't want another ESRB-situation to turn up, but it felt kinda inevitable.

Even if this turns out to be a fake, the work someone with considerable experience, there's still a good chance that the real complete base roster would actually get leaked at some point later before the release date anyway. Be sure to gear up for that on the off-chance that this leak does turn out to be forged.
 

TheAJJohnson

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Some thoughts I've put together, especially regarding the Banner Leak (because no one seems to be talking about that around here):

Sakurai

I feel like there are two sides to the man: the master and the mischief maker. When the master is present, we get nothing but seriousness. This is the one that shares info about the depth and scope of the game, the mechanics, the little details that just blow our minds (Olimar's helmet, Sonic's stopping sound, Cappy popping up, Bayonetta's guns making different sounds, etc.). This is the man that makes us all worship him as a god of game design and direction.

But then there's the other guy. When he's present, he takes delight in trolling us at every turn. The Waluigi post during Sm4sh ("just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it in the game"), the ZSS "removal announcement" during a Sm4sh direct, and most recently King Dedede literally laughing at us during the K. Rool reveal. The dude likes to surprise and fake out his fans, and we like it too!

WWhy do I say this? Because sometimes the two get confused for one another, and it's fair to see why. Without hindsight, we'll never know for sure. When E3 happened, we all thought we were only getting 3-5 more characters after Ridley. We got 5 in one sitting in August. He said that the pace would be slowing down (which, in terms of reveal frequency, is true). But what better way to blow our socks off by having 1 or 2 directs that UNLOAD hype on us right before launch?

Incineroar/Vergeben

We all put a lot of stock in our boy, Vergeben. He's had a pretty consistent record and we all really liked having a "trusted source". When he said Ken, we all thought, "Sounds realistic." When he said a SE rep, we all thought, "Geno, Sora, DQ...ok. I could see that." But the reality is that I think most of us expected these two things. However, when he finally said Incineroar, two things happened: 1) hardly anybody was excited and, 2) everyone else started parroting the character in their "leaks". Sure, there were people saying it before, but Vergeben effectively killed all other Pokemon speculation with his comments.

Why did this happen? Vergeben has always only had one thing on his side: his word being verified. The reality is that he could be a really good guesser. I know that's unlikely, but there is still a possibility. He's very smart in how he posts, only saying one or two characters or details at a time. He doesn't go on blast like other "leakers", a strategy which, if just a lie, mitigates the chance of him getting caught.

But even if he does have sources, sources can be wrong. It's asinine to assume that a good track record means infallibility in the future, especially when it sounds like he is the middleman to the information.

So where am I going with this? Well it's very, very possible that Vergeben simply got Incineroar wrong. Had he never said Incineroar was in, I honestly don't know how many people would stand behind the character as much as they are.

The Ballot

Let's assume that when Sakurai was interviewed about King K. Rool, his comment about him preforming well on the ballot were from "Master Sakurai" and were 100% truthful statements. (My main justification for this is that I really can't see any reason for him to lie about this detail. It would literally do nothing for anyone if he did.) That being said, it's clear that the ballot is influential in the roster choices in this game, or has been for at least a few characters. Another poster (who I can't identify because I can't find his/her comment...sorry) made a great point. With the evidence we have from online ballots and polls, combined with what we've heard in Smash's social circles, I think it's fair to say that Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, and Richter were NOT ballot champions. Sure, there was popularity there, but nowhere close to characters like K. Rool. The Inklings were a shoe in (because of popularity, both from sales and fans), Simon is kind of classic (and was probably part of the "Snake again" deal), and Ridley was kind of a BIG deal. Outside of K. Rool and possibly Isabelle though, I don't see Sakurai pulling from the ballot for the other newcomers. And we know for sure that Ken and Incineroar were not frontrunners.

And Now The Banner Leak (Conclusion)

Tying this all together, this is why I am part of #TeamReal. (You can read the following statements as one, flowing, cohesive thought. I've "titled" each section with my previous subjects for guidance on why I've come to this conclusion.)

Sakurai - Sakurai wants us to be surprised and extremely happy about what could be his very last (for real this time) Smash game. This has no doubt been a massive undertaking. But for anybody that wants to be a winner - the best of the best - would understand, you either go big or go home. For him, that probably meant fulfilling every possible desire and dream he could in this "Ultimate" version of his "Special" baby.

Incineroar/Vergeben - Like the September 28th leak says (among the gratuitous profanity), Nintendo really wants to blow our socks off. So when it comes to who's in and who's not, we've looked to leaks until Nintendo tells us something. Most of them have been text leaks, and when it comes to evidence, it's got an "wrong until proven right" kind of thing going on: a leaker is has to be proven correct with official news. But I think we can all agree that, when it comes to leaks, video>image>text. So even though Vergeben has some credibility, and has been our most "trusted source", we have only gotten text leaks from him. Images and video leaks carry much more weight, so if something came out contrary to what a text leak says, then the image/video wins until discredited (which, interestingly enough, goes the other way when it comes to credibility: right until proven wrong). So I think Vergeben, as right as he has been, is up against a powerful foe with the banner leak.

As for ending off with Ken and Incineroar...yeah, no. I honestly think the former was just bad info that got circulated among those in the know anyway. Besides, this would be such a lame ending to a fantastic hype-cycle (possibly the most hyped up game in history, at least in recent memory for me). People have said "but what about ending with Olimar in Brawl" or "Shulk wasn't that cool for Sm4sh", and you've got a point. But the problem with this point is they aren't Ultimate. The game is called "Ultimate" for a reason. It's the final chapter, the end all, the climax.

Watch any movie series and you'll see this at play. Take the MCU, for example. Each individual film is great on its own and has its own exciting parts. Some are better than others. But they are all building up to something greater. And when the 4th Avengers finally hits theaters, we'll get to finally experience the climax, the "ultimate" Marvel movie. Or should we assume, using the same broken logic permeating pessimistic comments, that the final Avengers movie will just sizzle out at the end because some other films have done the same thing? Of course not! Disney and Marvel have made sure that this sicker ends with a bang. Why would Nintendo (the only company with IPs to rival Disney, IMO) not do the same?

The Ballot - And just like the Avengers, we want the most legendary characters the company can get their hands on to be at the party. And when it comes to heavy hitters, we're running low. But there are some with a lot of power still. The holy trinity of Geno, Isaac, and Banjo and Kazooie would break the Internet if revealed within 24 hours of each other, let alone the same direct. They are all very popular among the Smash community (as evidenced by polls and the most recent bracket done on reddit...I wish I had the link or user name to post for research purposes). I would imagine that in the official ballot, they placed pretty high. Why waste that good info and go awol choosing Incineroar or something less popular or obscure? That's not a smart business choice and is contrary to common sense.

As for the other characters, Chorus Kids are neat and extremely unique. Mach Rider is classic Sakurai giving us our WTF character. Shadow and Ken are no-brainer, popular-enough third-party echoes. This fleshes out the roster well and gives it a truly "ultimate" feel, representing gaming in the most diverse, legendary way.

Analyzing the banner roster leak, well let's see...it would definitely be a huge troll on Sakurai's part if it was true (but also make him the absolute master of gaming), it is an image leak with immense amounts of complexity which gives it a lot credibility, it doesn't disappoint with its incredible roster, and it has some of the most requested characters in the Smash community. It checks all of the right boxes. At this point, until something substantial comes out to prove it's a fake, or until the source comes clean, we get to claim it as gospel and bask in its hype-giving life.
 

The DanMan051

Banned via Warnings
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SonicMario

Smash Master
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This Growth item thing is the first thing I've seen that actually kind of ticks me closer to believing this whole leak. But only a little bit. It at least makes it possible that regardless if the leak is fake or real that Isaac might be in (Unless this is going to be a Lip's Stick thing where an item from the series makes it but not the Newcomer). I'm still at a more neutral stance and think this may at least be partially true.

But it's at the very least something that's in favor of this leak. So thumbs up on spotting this.
 

N3ON

Gone Exploring
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Growth Synergy makes it so you can get past obstacles by climbing. In Smash I'm guessing you can use it and a growth can shoot up from the ground with enough strength to shoot up the enemy player into the air?
It could even create a ladder of sorts.
 

Scoliosis Jones

Kept you waiting, huh?
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To those of you saying: has this been brought up yet(?) or “what did I miss?”...

While I am sure some people wouldn’t mind keeping you updated, checking the previous pages would be greatly appreciated. It’s not all that time consuming to check and keeps the conversation on point!

Plus i’ve been seeing it all the time and find it just a tad lazy, no offense to anyone. I always look for the topics at hand myself. What do I know?:estatic:
 
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Untouch

Smash Master
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Messages
3,783


It is strange that two new items would both use such a similar looking sprout. But clearly they're different.
That really looks like an animal crossing tree sprout.
I'm also reminded of bubble bobble (for some reason).
 

IcyBrawler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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To those of you saying: has this been brought :estatic::estatic:up yet(?) or “what did I miss?”...

While I am sure some people wouldn’t mind keeping you updated, checking the previous pages would be greatly appreciated. It’s not all that time consuming to check and keeps the conversation on point!

Plus i’ve been seeing it all the time and find it just a tad lazy, no offense to anyone. I always look for the topics at hand myself. What do I know?:estatic:
Hey, been away for one page -- have I missed anything yet?

EDIT: Hey did you guys see that Chorus Kids render? should we PACK IT UP?
 
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Pyra

Aegis vs Goddess
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It is strange that two new items would both use such a similar looking sprout. But clearly they're different.
I went and double checked to see if it was actually clearly a sprout in an orb (just to make sure for my own sake), and it is.
That's interesting indeed.

It's very clear this is different from what they already have on the site as the healing field.
 

N3ON

Gone Exploring
BRoomer
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That really looks like an animal crossing tree sprout.
I'm also reminded of bubble bobble (for some reason).
To my memory, saplings in Animal Crossing come in small pots (or in bags?). An orb would be a bit strange.
 
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Luigifan18

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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What? Gamefaqs hates Verge and they're ripping him a new one right now. They just hate everything I think.
I miss _BTT_, BrunomasterX, and pokemonzx from the Brawl days. I see _BTT_ on DeviantART from time to time, but I have no clue what the other two are doing.
 

Luigifan18

Smash Master
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The major problem is that gaming in general is a millennial thing, so it's hard to separate "generations" of gamers.

I was born in '89 and I am old compared to most of the people I Smash with. Yet I'm also quite young compared to many of the people I met at the Portland Retro Gaming Expo this past weekend.
Jeez, you're making me feel old for having been born in 1990!
 

CosmicQuark

Smash Master
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This Growth item thing is the first thing I've seen that actually kind of ticks me closer to believing this whole leak. But only a little bit. It at least makes it possible that regardless if the leak is fake or real that Isaac might be in (Unless this is going to be a Lip's Stick thing where an item from the series makes it but not the Newcomer). I'm still at a more neutral stance and think this may at least be partially true.

But it's at the very least something that's in favor of this leak. So thumbs up on spotting this.
The one thing that annoyed me about Box Theory and others of the ilk was that they were comparing things like "Ganondorf's leak" even though one was something they were actively trying to hide (according to the theory) and the one they were comparing it to was something they completely missed. Here's a case where it's actually something they could have "just missed" making it (if it's not a ploy by Nintendo to distract us from the leak that is).
 

Luigi The President

Smash Hero
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First image has been thoroughly debunked, as it's from the bus that's using an older/pre-Isabelle version of the banner. The rest are what's being discussed.

Though I'd remind people that it's not the first time there's been an item without a character from that series: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Lip's_Stick
One of these series doesn't have a newcomer who has been heavily requested throughout over a decade of Smash.
Reminder is genuinely appreciated but it's very obvious they're not the same.

Wait a minute...
If that new item looks simliar to growth syngery, I believe that confirms the Isaac being in the smash.
Hold your horses buddy we don't even know what it is yet
 
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Tree Gelbman

100 Percent Done
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If it is Growth from GS

And we have Isaac using Growth on this mural

That'd...

That'd certainly be something huge in it's favor.
 

Luigifan18

Smash Master
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First image has been thoroughly debunked, as it's from the bus that's using an older/pre-Isabelle version of the banner. The rest are what's being discussed.

Though I'd remind people that it's not the first time there's been an item without a character from that series: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Lip's_Stick
And, hoo boy, the support thread has been salty about that. They haven't taken the Grinch leak well, either.
 

IcyBrawler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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Hey not calling anyone out but earlier I made a joke and made sure to state I was joking so no confusion would happen. Someone replied to me with something along the lines of "don't worry about letting us know you are joking"

Now I make a joke WITHOUT stating I'm joking and people think I'm being serious even though I made a similar joke earlier.

What gives SmashBoards, should I let you know or not? Jeez, just signed up today and you guys are already giving me a headache.
 
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