Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DrCoeloCephalo]

You speak for nobody except yourself.

The fact people wanted Mimikyu kinda proves otherwise.

 

[osby]

Starter monsters are generally overrated. The only reason they have any place in a story playthrough of Pokemon is because they tend to limit options of other mons of similar or better so much in early game and because Pokemon itself is built to be so easy that any low tier trash monster can just solo the game. They just get extra publicity from being your first option.

The term "overrated" is very subjective and you are using Pokemon tiers as an argument, which isn't a sound one. Also, why they get extra publicity doesn't change that they DO get extra publicity.

 

[Pyra]

you

you know he's from one of the 3d pokemon games right

Yes, I was trying to say I think he’d look awkward moving around in Smash’s 2D plane

I'd wager he'd be awkward to play as in any fighting game tbh

 

[osby]

The fact people wanted Mimikyu kinda proves otherwise.

Not every Mimikyu fan is calling other Pokemon garbage, tbh, I know it from myself.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well bayonetta is sexual, but she never was shown performing actual intercourse in her games to my knowledge.

well I mean if you're choosing realistic bayonetta cosplayers then who are your other options

Bayonetta 3 better have a joke being that Bayonetta doesn't actually know sex is despite her quips in the first game
They could have chosen not to promote Bayonetta like that is what I mean

 

[Bionichute]

Flaws in the game are subjective. We may want characters that are more “accurate” to their origins, but that doesn’t always lend itself to good game design.

Mario has had F.L.U.D.D for 3 games now. Players have grown accustomed to the playstyle and utility that the move offers. I have seen character speculators argue for replacing the down b with Cappy, but that simply isn’t good game design to do that. What utility does Cappy give Mario aside from, “Wow! Nice Odyssey reference!”

Similarly, Toon Link just bringing in items from Wind Waker shows off more of the origin but...what about the game design? Making him a clone of somebody else (even if it’s not serious, I will entertain it) makes him less like a Link or Hero of Hyrule, and more of a Dedede, completely unfitting for the character.

Ganondorf, while not using “spells”, I believe does fit his origin to a degree, as least far better than he used to. While he isn’t a wizard or mage like Robin, he uses dark magic in his attacks, strength he has shown in other Zelda titles. There’s also the fact that I have yet to see an idea for Dead Man’s Volley that works or works well aside from “give him a projectile”. There’s also the fact that he’s actually a force to be reckoned with if they player is good with him.

Characters should only be heavily changed if their bad game design dictates it. Changing characters because of representation is a bad idea for game design. Fighting games like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter don’t necessarily change things (it’s not a mascot fighter but it still relates) because then the people who play are then unfamiliar with a playstyle they’ve been used to for years.

As a Mario player, I would be pissed if they removed FLUDD and put Cappy in unless is allowed for similar utility. But even then, how would the Cappy move even stay true to the material? If they give you power over your opponent, like an accurate representation of Cappy would, it would be OP as hell and not good game design.

While I get what some people are talking about to an extent, the representation of characters so far as excellent, and far better than it could have been. Add in the fact that echo fighters were made solely because they required less time, and I don’t really know that the complaints are founded again, because of game design.

It always comes down to game design over representation. It doesn’t mean characters should do things they aren’t known for, but the team has never done that anyway. Characters have largely stayed familiar to their own characteristics in Smash.

yeah toon link would need an absolute overhaul in order to make him more accurate and also play good. and i do know this would clash with what people who like toon link as he is want out of the character. its impossible to satisfy everyone which is why everything should satisfy me, and thats just something that comes with the nature of mascot fighters, or fighting games in general. this kind of stuff has happened in games like street fighter and mortal kombat as well, any real changes after a status quo has been established will upset people, no matter how better or worse the change actually is

i personally would like to see toon link as a more unique character, but i know there are people that don't, and there's no real way to solve it

 

[Pyra]

well I mean if you're choosing realistic bayonetta cosplayers then who are your other options

unless we can find people with proportionately accurate legs then i think nobody particularly fits the bill

 

[Pakky]

Starter monsters are generally overrated. The only reason they have any place in a story playthrough of Pokemon is because they tend to limit options of other mons of similar or better utility so much in early game and because Pokemon itself is built to be so easy that any low tier trash monster can just solo the game. They just get extra publicity from being your first option.

What determines quality however?

Stats/Movepool? If so depending on the gen the normal 'rat' guy you get can do.., everything.

Design? Eh subjective.

I mean just because someone is yoru first doesn't mean they're overrated. As a lot of them have competency outside of the base game.

 

[osby]

unless we can find people with proportionately accurate legs then i think nobody particularly fits the bill

You can't have realistic Bayonetta or Dedede cosplayers, they are perfect.

 

[Bionichute]

You can't have realistic Bayonetta or Dedede cosplayers, they are perfect.

um excuse me?

(im so sorry)

 

[Pyra]

You can't have realistic Bayonetta or Dedede cosplayers, they are perfect.

I can't be a realistic Dedede but I can definitely do his crouch taunt just fine

close enough

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

What determines quality however?

Stats? If so depending on the gen the normal 'rat' guy you get can do.., everything.

Design? Eh subjective.

I mean just because someone is yoru first doesn't mean they're overrated. As a lot of them have competency outside of the base game.

Stats, man. That's just how it is in any RPG ever. How a piece of equipment or a how a monster looks just doesn't mean jack compared to how strong or how much utility it has to get you through harder battles. Caring about looks or design alone is just shallow. They're overrated because a good amount of the fanbase puts so much value in them despite the fact that they're not even that good. Pokemon just doesn't have to stress its players to care that much about stats and utility because like I said, the game is built so any low tier trash monster can solo the game. Besides, only like 5 Starters are competent outside the story and the rest are either unimpressive or just outright terrible.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

um excuse me?

(im so sorry)

Sorry but it doesn’t match up to the regality of the OG chubby penguin.

 

[osby]

Stats, man. That's just how it is in any RPG ever. How a piece of equipment or a how a monster looks just doesn't mean jack compared to how strong or how much utility it has to get you through harder battles. Caring about looks or design alone is just shallow. They're overrated because a good amount of the fanbase puts so much value in them despite the fact that they're not even that good. Pokemon just doesn't have to stress its players to care that much about stats and utility because like I said, the game is built so any low tier trash monster can solo the game. Besides, only like 5 Starters are competent outside the story and the rest are either unimpressive or just outright terrible.

Literally who cares about Pokemon stats? Most of its fans are kids.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Literally who cares about Pokemon stats? Most of its fans are kids.

Again, that goes back to how easy the game is built so you don't have to care about them, so you're just enforcing my point further. Besides, it's not like a game for kids can't be more challenging.

 

[Pyra]

Literally who cares about Pokemon stats? Most of its fans are kids.

I do.
People can play the game how they want tbh

I'm like a hybrid where I try to beef up the Pokemon that I like the best, and round my team out otherwise with objectively better mons.

 

[segillav]

Well, I beat World Of Light. I might have more concrete thoughts later but I feel pretty good right now.

 

[osby]

Again, that goes back to how easy the game is built so you don't have to care about them, so you're just enforcing my point further.

You said looking at design is shallow and overrated. Which is, like, your opinion, but doesn't enforce anything.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Again, that goes back to how easy the game is built so you don't have to care about them, so you're just enforcing my point further.

It’s kind of like saying that the outfit that the player trainer starts with is overrated, since the player’s outfit also doesn’t matter. It’s fine to say as a subjective opinion, but that’s it.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

You said looking at design is shallow and overrated. Which is, like, your opinion, but doesn't enforce anything.

You misunderstand. I said CARING about designs and looks ALONE is shallow. That's literally the definition of the word shallow. I never said it was overrated. I said starters are overrated
Overrated means putting high value on things that don't merit it. Torterra and Meganium are very popular just for being starters but that doesn't really change the fact they're terrible as far as Grass mons go.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You misunderstand. I said CARING about designs and looks ALONE is shallow. That's literally the definition of the word shallow. I never said it was overrated. I said starters are overrated
Overrated means putting high value on things that don't merit it. Torterra and Meganium are very popular just for being starters but that doesn't really change the fact they're terrible as far as Grass mons go.

Hey how about you stop dissing my big ass tree friend?

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

It’s kind of like saying that the outfit that the player trainer starts with is overrated, since the player’s outfit also doesn’t matter. It’s fine to say as a subjective opinion, but that’s it.

That's not really a good example because outfits don't do anything in Pokemon and ultimately don't matter or change anything for battling outside of visuals unlike in games like SMT where your outfits actually make a stat and elemental resistance difference. If the outfit had terrible stat buffs compared to an outfit players claimed was uglier but everyone chose the low stat one anyway because they liked it more, that outfit would be overrated.

Hey how about you stop dissing my big *** tree friend?

It's not necessarily MY fault Torterra is how it is when Game Freak is the one that hasn't given it any Mega Evolution, bettter Abilities or stat buffs of any kind to make it more usable and it's certainly not like I'm the only one that thinks Torterra isn't worth using since people going to tournaments and winning certainly aren't giving it the time of day.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Pokémon is great because it's such an accessible series while simultaneously having good competitive depth, you can play it however you want. Like, I'm most definitely someone who just picks whichever Pokémon I think is coolest, only time I don't do so is if I'm doing a challenge like a Nuzlocke, but I do appreciate both aspects of the game, and I do love to watch and hear about the competitive aspects of it, I'm just not dedicated enough to compete myself, as well as being the type of guy to put down an RPG after it says The End.

If it wasn't the complete package it wouldn't have the same appeal at all, it's the same with Smash for that matter, regardless of which side you're on pretending like the other one doesn't matter means you don't get the whole view of what it actually is. I don't think there's any wrong way to play it, and from a developer point of view I think putting too much emphasis one way or the other would disrupt the great balance it has. I personally think that's been an issue for the past three mainline installments actually (counting Let's Go), Pokémon should be for everyone rather than creating a narrow target audience, which in recent years has been the younger audience. It's not gone completely overboard just yet mind you, but it's been heading that way, and Let's Go is awfully close to doing so.

 

[Pyra]

we talking about big ass trees now?

let's talk about how this boi shoulda been playable

 

[osby]

You misunderstand. I said CARING about designs and looks ALONE is shallow. That's literally the definition of the word shallow. I never said it was overrated. I said starters are overrated
Overrated means putting high value on things that don't merit it. Torterra and Meganium are very popular just for being starters but that doesn't really change the fact they're terrible as far as Grass mons go.

One: don't double post
Two: you can't just use Torterra and terrible in the same sentence and expect me to take you seriously

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's not necessarily MY fault Torterra is how it is when Game Freak is the one that hasn't given it any Mega Evolution, bettter Abilities or stat buffs of any kind to make it more usable and it's certainly not like I'm the only one that thinks Torterra isn't worth using since people going to tournaments and winning certainly aren't giving it the time of day.

Ok but go away my tree friend is just here for the ride while doing whatever the **** it wants

 

[fleshdude.gov]

we talking about big *** trees now?

let's talk about how this boi shoulda been playable

Spoiler: Image Condensed

I see your Alolan Exeggutor and raise you Trevenant.

seriously though Trevenant would be cool

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

One: don't double post
Two: you can't just use Torterra and terrible in the same sentence and expect me to take you seriously

1. Very well.
2. Then prove me wrong if what I'm saying isn't seriously worth listening to. Try actually going to an official VGC Doubles tournament with Torterra when it's legal and win with it. If entering a $5 local VGC tourney isn't an option, try using the official Battle Spot ladder and get a high ranking with it on your team. You won't tho.

Ok but go away my tree friend is just here for the ride while doing whatever the **** it wants

Not really because Game Freak is the one that decides if it gets a Mega or not, regardless of the fictional monster itself "wanting" one.

 

[Iridium]

we talking about big *** trees now?

let's talk about how this boi shoulda been playable

Or, the godlike Missingno. for our playable glitch rep.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

1. Very well.
2. Then prove me wrong if what I'm saying isn't seriously worth listening to. Try actually going to an official VGC Doubles tournament with Torterra when it's legal and win with it. If entering a $5 local VGC tourney isn't an option, try using to the official Battle Spot ladder and get a high ranking with it on your team. You won't tho.


Not really because Game Freak is the one that decides if it gets a Mega or not, regardless of the fictional monster itself "wanting" one.

Torterra speaks for the trees. The trees say shut the **** up

Or, the godlike Missingno. for our playable glitch rep.

We have Sonic for that

 

[Wademan94]

we talking about big *** trees now?

let's talk about how this boi shoulda been playable

He’s still my favorite idea for a Pokéball, being a massive wall and everything, it’s just brilliant.

We have Sonic for that

Wrong answer,

EDIT: Never mind

 

[Pyra]

Not really because Game Freak is the one that decides if it gets a Mega or not, regardless of the fictional monster itself "wanting" one.

...Either you intentionally ignored the point of her post or... something, because I'm not entirely sure picked up on what the point was.

We have Sonic for that

He’s still my favorite idea for a Pokéball, being a massive wall and everything, it’s just brilliant.

yeah, same here haha

 

[osby]

Or, the godlike Missingno. for our playable glitch rep.

I thought it was Isabelle.

EDIT: 'd.

 

[fleshdude.gov]

Or, the godlike Missingno. for our playable glitch rep.

Yes please.
TBH I've unironically wanted Missingno. as a playable fighter (specifically fighter #0) for years.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

...Either you intentionally ignored the point of her post or... something, because I'm not entirely sure picked up on what the point was.

Unless I'm mistaken, the "point" was a joke that completely overlooked and ignored everything I said and didn't actually argue or refute anything but correct me if I'm wrong on that. If you're so well versed in the points other people are making then please share and elaborate to help avoid misunderstandings instead of just saying "You're missing the point." like anybody could say without any actual proof.

 

[Iridium]

...And I found out this was a thing a while ago.

Spoiler

I'm thinking some things right now. Make this our MK rep.

 

[Pyra]

Unless I'm mistaken, the "point" was a joke that completely overlooked and ignored everything I said (it was on purpose because it wasn't an argument) and didn't actually argue or refute anything (so the post accomplished its goal) but correct me if I'm wrong on that. If you're so well versed in the points other people are making ("no u") then please share and elaborate to help avoid misunderstandings instead of just saying "You're missing the point." (otherwise known as "i can't believe you responded to that as if it was a genuine attempt at argument or something") like anybody could say without any actual proof.

"I don't care about your point that you're being aggressive about and I like ass tree turtle anyway thank you" - Cutie Gwen

Wait does this mean the shorter reply I make the longer the essay will be or...

 

[Deleted member]

Pokemon is fun, and TBH that's all I look for in a game. I could care less about story, art, music or whatever if I'm not having fun. I could also care less about how "different", "ambitious" or "how much depth" a game is/has if I'm having fun. Call me old fashioned, but gameplay tops everything for me. I'll take simplistic graphics and lazy/poor writing any day of the week if it means the game itself is fun to play.

The only problems I have with Pokemon is the reliance on grinding and RNG for its competitive environment. A rework of the IV and EV systems would do the series wonders, but I honestly doubt it will ever happen. Pokemon's main target demographic is kids, which the online fanbase likes to forget a lot when they demand more depth or darker themes, and that definitely includes me, as I'm fully aware my wants for the series are unrealistic. However, the games are still fun, so I stick around.

Now, to avoid being completely off topic, Dunsparce is objectively the best Pokemon and if he isn't your most wanted Smash DLC, you're doing it wrong.

 

[LetterO]

Speaking of Pokemon, I find myself enjoying playing as every character from it in Smash besides Pikachu and Pichu.

 

[Wademan94]

Now, to avoid being completely off topic, Dunsparce is objectively the best Pokemon and if he isn't your most wanted Smash DLC, you're doing it wrong.

Man that’d be even more of a joke character than