Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Scoliosis Jones]

Let's take a step back. I was responding to your post where you mentioned that we should (and I'm paraphrasing) consider the rivalries and excitement these characters brought. My response was that, while that's all nice and good, there is a real tangible issue these characters have, which is financial (and legal). From your post you say you get that money is involved, but you are going on about the same kind of things. That these characters are important to Smash. That there would be a creator left if they are gone. That's more an emotional response to a real world issue.

Let's take a hypothetical example. Saw we don't add any new guest characters but we bring the old ones back. We'll ignore Bayo (as Nintendo shares the rights sortof) and Pac-Man (as we'll say Namco is making the game again). Even with that, you still need to license 4 characters from three companies. They will likely want payment for each of those as Nintendo is licensing out those characters. Again, this is before considering if we want to add a new one. One of the reason I said Smash 4 would not be ported is because of licensing. It makes a difference.

So it comes to this question: Is the money worth it to make some fans happy?

Any character getting cut is going to make fans upset. That is unavoidable. And when you have a roster as big as Smash's, you will likely have cuts. So saying something along the lines of cutting Sonic will make a few million people upset, you're missing the point. Any character that gets added to Smash is going to resonate with some people, and cutting them will make those people upset. For instance, I have a friend who was upset when Dr Mario is cut. A lot of people here were fine with it, but it was something my friend didn't like. That is a reality for any character.

But what are the benefits for Nintendo? You talked a lot about fans, but let's look at the company making the game. Do they get any added benefit? As I established earlier, not really. Adding Sonic a third time isn't going to make fans that excite. It's not going to get a lot of headlines and probably wont get trending (or not for long). Seeing something a second or third time isn't going to impress as much. Does it increase sales? Probably not. Smash 4 sold about 14 million between two titles but Brawl sold 13 million on its own. If you assume 50% of the Wii U version bought the 3DS version, its around 11-12 million. So at the very least, these characters don't increase sales. Will the cost of buying them be better than an alternative? Probably not. If Nintendo wants to generate a lot of excitement for the game, all they have to do is announce the big dumb purple dragon and watch everyone lose their ****. So do the benefits justify the cost. Probably not as they give no new advertising potential, they don't increase sales, and Nintendo's own characters will get the job done for less. So when you talk about returning characters, there is less benefit. Conversely, any cut is going to make people upset. If this cut also saves some cash, wouldn't that be a benefit?

And of course there is the issue that even if some come back, all of them wont. Nintendo will likely pick and choose which characters they'd want back and that may be based on other games coming out (maybe Mega Man could help advertise MM 11, but that means kicking Ryu off). Kind of like I said for the port: trying to bring them all back is a licensing nightmare.

So this has kind of gone on for a while, so let me wrap this up. How I see it, this seems like the heart is leading the brain. You can say they are important or people will be upset, but does that change the issue? Does that change the licensing and monetary issues. Again, this was all in response to you telling people to consider these things. Essentially, to consider emotions. But perhaps those folks already have, and they, like me, saw that the real world problems trump the feelings.

If this is your last post with this conversation, then this will be my last post in this conversation as well. If that's what you mean by wrapping it up.

When I said I understand the money/financial aspect of it, I meant it. I understand how Nintendo must make an investment by paying other companies money to use their property. I understand that investments such as these, which require contractual obligations, payouts, as well as planning for merchandising such as amiibo, can be difficult to maintain. I also understand that, with investments, you put money into a potential business venture in order to achieve a goal or potential success from said investment.

Investments can be made for the short term, or for the long term. If it doesn't work out, get out of it. If it does work out, find a way to continue with that success.

Our differences in opinion come down to, "Was the money worth the end result?". I believe it was and that, if the ends justify the means, to continue the investment. You do not, and that is your opinion. I would also like to point out that, in other cases when you believed circumstances with 3rd parties would change, like believing that Sonic and Snake would not return after Brawl, you were (partially) incorrect. You were also incorrect after we got Ryu as DLC. You were incorrect again when it came to 3rd parties when we got Cloud and Bayonetta.

If you don't like 3rd parties in Smash, that's fine. But don't act as if knowing things about economics or investments suddenly makes the "realistic" opinion more validated and important than an emotional one, just as I have, numerous times, addressed the fact that money and business deals are always involved and are important. I can understand and comprehend that and not abandon my emotional resolve.

Furthermore, I see what you are saying with Sonic and Dr. Mario. However, that's not exactly an even comparison. While I would bear sorrow for your friend who enjoys Dr. Mario (I myself enjoy playing him as well), cutting Dr. Mario, a clone character, would not leave nearly the same dent as cutting Sonic. That is effectively indisputable.

While I am not seeking to make this personal, I find it interesting that you respond and end with, "But perhaps those folks already have, and they, like me, saw that the real world problems trump the feelings."

This is, effectively, putting yourself as the "victor" because you focus more on the financial rather than the emotional. I find that, with all due respect, untrue. We're talking about a video game here. Yet, you come into a forum talking about a video game which involves much emotion and discussion, and decide to effectively tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because i'm not speaking in the same terms. I'm not being real. As if emotion isn't real, or not as real as money.

Do you think Sakurai doesn't consider the emotions of a rabid fanbase like Smash fans? I think he does, hence why he has already claimed that it's a painstaking process because of the disappointment a cut can cause fans. The man has a heart.

Obviously, characters not owned by Nintendo are not as easy to obtain. That is obvious. You do not need a degree in economics or business to understand that. I knew this before you quoted me the first time.This, frankly, isn't anything I didn't already know.

Characters that are not owned by Nintendo may be cut. That is another reality, and it's one I hope we don't encounter. At the end of the day, I cannot comprehend why one would believe that one of either business/finances and emotion cannot co-exist with the others. That, in itself, is a shame.

Smash Bros has flourished because it is that mix of business and emotion. If you do not believe that, I believe you are missing the point of the game in the first place.

But I've said my piece. I will leave it at that.
---
Has anybody else been playing Smash more all of a sudden because of the reveal? I certainly have...and I can't stop.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Has anybody else been playing Smash more all of a sudden because of the reveal? I certainly have...and I can't stop.

Honesty I’ve been debating between playing Smash a bunch to manage the hype and not playing nay until the new one so I don’t tire myself out on it.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

The following veterans I feel should be unlockable:
or

throwing these on here too

 

[Pakky]

Have we ever had anyone who could shift their size like Max Brass does?

I think that might be an interesting defense mechanic, become heavier/ larger to cushion being knocked back.

 

[Big-Cat]

Has anybody else been playing Smash more all of a sudden because of the reveal? I certainly have...and I can't stop.

I've been spending my spring break playing Yakuza 0 and Nier.

 

[Deleted member 396530]

Ness will Be strong Now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Opossum]

Ness will Be strong Now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To quote Ness,


"Okay."

 

[Ura]

Has anybody else been playing Smash more all of a sudden because of the reveal? I certainly have...and I can't stop.

Yeah and I got bodied by an FG Ganon.

I don't deserve to play this game.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

To quote Ness,


"Okay."

Uh, actually it's "Okey."

Goodness this is addicting.

(Warning! Strong language at least once or twice in this video)

 

[Cin726]

I'd make Falco a default character and then bring Wolf back as an unlockable.

 

[Chandeelure]

I still think this is great and kinda... weird, like they are trying to say he should be in Smash, I don't know haha.

Why say he is important to the Kirby series, that he deserves a prize and that he is not just a Waddle Dee?
Specially when the others characters like Dedede or Meta Knight have information about their history and stuff like that... not this.

It's like they took all the deetractors's arguments and deestroyed them with one single picture lol.

 

[Radical Bones]

I love unlocking characters. Give me the original 8 as the base roster and I'll do the rest.

 

[Johnknight1]

Ness was stronger in Smash 4 than he was in any previous Smash game.

Lucas was also stronger in Smash 4 than he was in Brawl as well.

If anyone needs help, it is Jigglypuff.

Also, Zelda needs to be cut and replaced with this lovely old hag:

 

[Big-Cat]

She looks pretty good for someone over 100 years old.

 

[Ridel]

People who say Bandanna Waddle Dee is just "another Waddle Dee", don't know who he is.

 

[Danpal65]

Ness was stronger in Smash 4 than he was in any previous Smash game.

Lucas was also stronger in Smash 4 than he was in Brawl as well.

If anyone needs help, it is Jigglypuff.

Also, Zelda needs to be cut and replaced with this lovely old hag:

Definitely my favourite design for Zelda. She is really versatile as well. She has her more active outfit there, then we have her royal dress, her ceremonial gown and then, thanks to the DLC, her warm snow outfit. She just has so much character and, personally, is one of the first times that Zelda has been truly loveable (Skyward Sword did nothing for me...).

 

[Big-Cat]

What do you guys think of their being stages that can only be used in certain types of matchups? Overwatch has different maps that and all have only one objective each match. For example, Temple of Anubis will always be a Capture Point map. It won't be a payload, KOTH, or hybrid map.

In Smash terms, this would mean that Final Destination is always a 1v1 map (with or without items). I think, if Nintendo is looking to take the game in an esports route, I think it would be wise for them to do this. This way, there's no room for debate regarding stage legality.

 

[A Distant Demon]

What do you guys think of their being stages that can only be used in certain types of matchups? Overwatch has different maps that and all have only one objective each match. For example, Temple of Anubis will always be a Capture Point map. It won't be a payload, KOTH, or hybrid map.

In Smash terms, this would mean that Final Destination is always a 1v1 map (with or without items). I think, if Nintendo is looking to take the game in an esports route, I think it would be wise for them to do this. This way, there's no room for debate regarding stage legality.

Not a fan. Would be really annoying to not be able to play a stage because im not "playing the right mode." Gotta remember this is a game mostly for casuals

I know there sort of is for 5+ player smash, but that's partially because of technical problems.

 

[JavaCroc]

What do you guys think of their being stages that can only be used in certain types of matchups? Overwatch has different maps that and all have only one objective each match. For example, Temple of Anubis will always be a Capture Point map. It won't be a payload, KOTH, or hybrid map.

In Smash terms, this would mean that Final Destination is always a 1v1 map (with or without items). I think, if Nintendo is looking to take the game in an esports route, I think it would be wise for them to do this. This way, there's no room for debate regarding stage legality.

They already did this to a small extent in SSB4, where only certain stages can be used in 5-to-8-player mode. As long as there's a good variety in the stages, I don't see a problem with this. This should probably only apply in certain modes though, like online competitions or 8-player - I don't see a need to restrict Final Destination to 1v1 for on-the-couch-with-friends play, for instance.

 

[Chiroz]

What do you guys think of their being stages that can only be used in certain types of matchups? Overwatch has different maps that and all have only one objective each match. For example, Temple of Anubis will always be a Capture Point map. It won't be a payload, KOTH, or hybrid map.

In Smash terms, this would mean that Final Destination is always a 1v1 map (with or without items). I think, if Nintendo is looking to take the game in an esports route, I think it would be wise for them to do this. This way, there's no room for debate regarding stage legality.

This is not a good idea.

Nintendo setting up specific stages as the: "1v1 competitive stages" would have 0 impact on what the scene decides are the best stages. They could correctly predict what stages the competitive scene would like to use and classify them, basically letting people know what they believe will be the ones we choose once the game is done, but in the end if the scene deems a stage as horrible for competitive play they will still not choose it even if it's classified as a "1v1 competitive stage".

The one reason I don't think this idea is good is because, even though it will have no impact on "bad" stages, it could have the potential of eliminating "good" stages where for some reason the developers decided it wasn't good for competitive play but all of the scene thinks it's super good (this actually happened to very few 8 player variation of stages that could have been used for competitive play, but weren't because of how hard it was to choose them for 1v1/2v2).

 

[Radical Bones]

The competitive community only really need like 5 or 6 stages. It shouldn't be that hard to make 6 maps that are nice and plain without any gimmicks.

 

[Chiroz]

The competitive community only really need like 5 or 6 stages. It shouldn't be that hard to make 6 maps that are nice and plain without any gimmicks.

It would be great to have at least 5 starters and at least 4 CPs. That would be the dream.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I've gotten a bit of heat here recently for my views on clones and third party characters, so I decided I'd properly explain where I'm coming from.

Regarding third party characters, my only real problem was with characters that are literally just alternate costumes. Prior to the launch of Smash 4, I was perfectly fine with Lucina, and only had a problem with Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. However after playing Uprising and seeing that Dark Pit was his own unique character, I ended up being okay with his inclusion and even looking forward to playing as him. But I was still iffy about Dr. Mario, since it was literally Mario in a doctor's coat, even despite the different moveset.

The best way I can describe my issue is the annoyance I'm sure a lot of us felt with characters such as Metal Mario, Tanooki Mario, Cat Peach, and the infamous Pink Gold Peach.

As for Bayonetta, I never really had a problem with her, but rather for what she represented. I was afraid we'd get all kinds of third party characters that didn't mesh with Smash Bros. However, I realize now that I was a bit short sighted, and in this age of modern Nintendo, Bayonetta is, despite her third party status, an honorary first party Nintendo character. Really, my only problem with third parties is getting characters like Minecraft Steve, but that really comes down to personal perference.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Here, have a weirdly relevant picture.

Brawl in the Family may or may not have been what made me realize how much I wanted Waluigi in Smash.

Holy...LMAO I'm dead


Now I want Waluigi in more than ever

 

[Radical Bones]

I think the thing about Waluigi is is that he's the perfect troll and no one would be mad to see him in the game. And if you are mad... well you took the bait.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Waluigi's B move should be tossing a whiskered eggplant (eggplant with a Waluigi 'stache).

It could replace the hit opponent's B move with whiskered eggplant, as well as giving them a Waluigi 'stache.

The way to get rid of the move is to hit someone else with a whiskered eggplant.

Perfect troll move.

 

[Danpal65]

I think Waluigi's B move should be tossing a whiskered eggplant (eggplant with a Waluigi 'stache).

It could replace the hit opponent's B move with whiskered eggplant, as well as giving them a Waluigi 'stache.

The way to get rid of the move is to hit someone else with a whiskered eggplant.

Perfect troll move.

So basically be this guy?

Spoiler: Big Picture

 

[Mega Bidoof]

She looks pretty good for someone over 100 years old.

Honestly, as I was playing through BotW, I thought the ending might have you defeating Ganon and freeing Zelda, only to see her walk out as an frail, elderly woman, not unlike Impa, before she thanks you and peacefully dies in your arms.

Happy endings are cool too.

 

[Starcutter]

Krystal and/or Decidueye alts would be pretty cool to see.

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

 

[Radical Bones]

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

Hello feel free to do this for a wide variety of characters such as Mimikyu, Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, King K.Rool and more love you.

 

[Danpal65]

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

It so pretty!

I really think that what is most effective in selling people on a character is a moveset with visuals and palette swaps. They just seem to make the possibility of them being a character feel so much more real.

 

[Hinata]

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

Ooooooh, very nice. I'm in the business of making recolors like this myself, but yours are far more inspired than mine ever were.

 

[Deleted member]

Opossum

Thanks for shining up the thread with Waluigi time.

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

The Shiny could use some more depth and color, but I like the pallets overall!
The Empoleon one is my favorite alt out of the bunch.
While it seems unlikely that the Empoleon alt could make it in, I really like where these alts were based on. Also the Snowy Owls alt is a creative idea and I could see Sakurai basing it off that.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not a fan. Would be really annoying to not be able to play a stage because im not "playing the right mode." Gotta remember this is a game mostly for casuals

I know there sort of is for 5+ player smash, but that's partially because of technical problems.

What about labeling stages as intended for different modes but can be used otherwise?

 

[A Distant Demon]

What about labeling stages as intended for different modes but can be used otherwise?

It would be good for official Nintendo Sponsored tournaments I guess if they want to enforce very specific rules.

Otherwise im not really sure. Letting the competitive community work things out for themselves is usually better, and casuals are usually pretty good at figuring out what they do and do not want to play.

IMO of course

 

[AadmM]

BOOM.

Spoiler: Inspirations

1 - Default
2 - Shiny
3 - Blaziken
4 - Empoleon
5 - Talonflame
6 - Noctowl
7 - The season of Autumn/Fall
8 - Snowy Owls

Honestly, I think I could have done better on 3, but I really like 4 and 5.

Pretty sick work here, man! Especially a fan of 3, 4, 6, and 8. In general I love the mixture of muted tones and subtle brights on the facial features.

 

[Retroend]

so i need to ask you guys something. i know the switch can now use the gamecube controller. however i do not believe 8 player smash will come back due to the fact that you can only plug in one of the gamecube adapters. whats your guys intake on this?

 

[Lyndis_]

so i need to ask you guys something. i know the switch can now use the gamecube controller. however i do not believe 8 player smash will come back due to the fact that you can only plug in one of the gamecube adapters. whats your guys intake on this?

You can plug two Gamecube adapters in docked, there's another USB on the inside of the dock.

...However it wouldn't matter anyways, since there's literally every other controller that they're going to prioritize over the Gamecube controller. That's if the GC controller even gets officially supported past the "it technically works" thing it has on Switch.

I don't think 8-Player Smash is ever going to leave, it just has too much advertising power. I'd also honestly be devastated to have it go.

 

[Chiroz]

so i need to ask you guys something. i know the switch can now use the gamecube controller. however i do not believe 8 player smash will come back due to the fact that you can only plug in one of the gamecube adapters. whats your guys intake on this?

The GCC adapter works with only 1 USB, the second one is for rumble.

There's also wireless controllers.

There's also hubs and extenders for USB.

I personally have an extender that transforms 1 USB into 3, so I can plug in 2 GCC adapters with rumble feature and still have 1 USB port left for my Switch Pro which is what I am going to use for Smash Switch.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

If Rex makes it in, or Zelda actually speaks assuming she's in her BotW incarnation, or if Fox still has his Smash 4 voice, I hope dual audio will be a thing like Melee. The dream would be changing only specific characters' voices so that you can keep the best of both worlds, but I doubt that would happen.