Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dukeofdeath5]

The spots weren't the big giveaway for the box theory, it was that one was clearly set up to have Ken. I think a lot of people brushed this away, it was designed that way for a reason.

I mean to say when you analyzed the math and placement, you would realize only two spots were left for it to be filled out after Isabelle's reveal

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone please link me the Japanese stream of the full Smash game?

 

[Untouch]

Can someone please link me the Japanese stream of the full Smash game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE
Starts in 2 and a half hours.

 

[Starbound]

why the hell are people expecting free stuff now? no wonder people have ridiculous expectations.

It's almost like people just don't learn.

"guys we can get geno and banjo and isaac and shadow and wolf and snake and ice climbers andandandandandandand"

"what do you mean bayonetta is the last DLC character?!?!?!?!?!?!"

 

[GoeGoe]

Just curious, do we have a list of all the visible characters seen at the start of the story cinematic? I think we have a few MIA’s whose deaths weren’t shown on screen. Like K Rool and Simon for example.

You can save yourself some time and count the red eyes image instead. Play with brightness though.
Btw, K.Rool was among'em on the cliff. Simon too.
They're all dead.. except Kirby... cause Sakurai.
It's in the movie man, don't think too much about it

 

[Potato_]

Just curious, do we have a list of all the visible characters seen at the start of the story cinematic? I think we have a few MIA’s whose deaths weren’t shown on screen. Like K Rool and Simon for example.

What do you think they were doing in thier final moments?

There were some characters that I don't think we even saw at all, like Cloud (although that one is a lot more understandable).

I really want to see K.Rool's reaction to the beam of death though. Feel like his would easily be the most unpredictable.

 

[Robertman2]

oh we know for sure now that ridley's last two costumes were meta ridley placeholders now pic.twitter.com/p40O4NSRHG

— 🕊 (@vivaceharmony) November 2, 2018

So umm... anybody notice this?
This is certainly super odd....

Damn, I liked the grey w/ green one

 

[Deleted member]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE
Starts in 2 and a half hours.

Thanks my dude! Hope the show off some more gameplay of !

 

[A.G.L.]

"considering", KH3 would look ugly on Switch (the current Switch, who knows about the updated ver.). Nintendo has to prove a lot before they "consider" doing that. It'll take a lot, just like DQ11 on Switch.
You got me wrong on that one. I said Zero loss "plus" gain. That's all gain with no loss. I don't think Square would refuse that

Agree the current Switch I don't see it, but we don't know if they'll try to find a way. If they can, and if

"considering", KH3 would look ugly on Switch (the current Switch, who knows about the updated ver.). Nintendo has to prove a lot before they "consider" doing that. It'll take a lot, just like DQ11 on Switch.
You got me wrong on that one. I said Zero loss "plus" gain. That's all gain with no loss. I don't think Square would refuse that

I agree it would not look good with how KH3 is now. I do believe Nomura will try to find a way for it to happen though. If it does happen then I can absolutely see them pushing for Sora to be the next Square rep, due to cross promotion. Right now we just have to let events play out and see where it goes. And yes sorry I miss read what you had said.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Yeah but then it wouldn't be a Nintendo desire. That deal goes both ways, so no. Geno it is.

What constitutes a "Nintendo desire?" A character wanted by Nintendo? A character wanted by fans of Nintendo? But then what constitutes a "fan of Nintendo?" See how such a vague term can be confusing? It seems like you just came up with a buzzword to avoid valid points against your arguments.

While he may love the fans, Sakurai first has a duty to serve Nintendo and get them the most profit possible. Sure, his status gives him wiggle room to include less popular characters, but he's ultimately going to go with what will make the most amount of people happy. It's not like Sakurai's going to back out of a deal if he doesn't get Geno, he's going to go for the next best character. For Sm4sh, it was Cloud, and for Smash Ultimate, it'll be either Sora or Lara Croft.
I think he's come to terms with not getting Geno because he's likely already been denied permission to use him as a playable character repeatedly. For all we know he may have gone for someone with more wide popularity and passed Geno entirely despite his own bias.

Geno just isn't likely, as much as he is desired by the core Smash Bros. fanbase. And even then, the core fanbase is nothing but a loud minority.

Also in terms of KH on Switch the very least they can do is port Kingdom Hearts 1.5 + 2.5 HD Remix. Portable Kingdom Hearts (that isn't a spinoff) is a huge selling point in of itself.

 

[Deleted member]

My dream for DLC is Elma, Sora, Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, and Doomguy.

 

[Fane]

So did anybody even know what this Granblue game is? Never heard of it, unless it's popular in Japan, don't see why they'd choose a 3rd party DLC character from that rather than something/someone that would actually generate loads of hype and revenue like Sora, Geno, Tails, B&K, etc...

I just hope that DLC isn't disappointing tbh, the final reveals were pretty lacking in sparking a huge amount of hype. Every reaction I've seen so far is either "Ken! That was expected, nice." and "Who? Oh, a new Pokemon." or "Okay so Vergeben was right and Grinch was fake, makes sense."

Steve and a Granblue character don't sound like they'd be much different to me. Dragonquest is a different story, I don't play it, but I'm pretty damn sure it's a very big SquEnix game, right?

 

[Megadoomer]

Just curious, do we have a list of all the visible characters seen at the start of the story cinematic? I think we have a few MIA’s whose deaths weren’t shown on screen. Like K Rool and Simon for example.

What do you think they were doing in thier final moments?

I feel like K. Rool would have been trying to throw Donkey Kong into the path of one of the beams. If he's going down, he's taking someone with him!

 

[WolfCypher]

Just curious, do we have a list of all the visible characters seen at the start of the story cinematic? I think we have a few MIA’s whose deaths weren’t shown on screen. Like K Rool and Simon for example.

What do you think they were doing in thier final moments?

Apparently, Yoshi was not in any of the CGIs.

What does Sakurai have against Yoshi, anyway? As an O8, he definitely gets shafted all the time. He was literally the last character to be seen in the EVERYONE IS HERE trailer, he was the only O8 to not have his Final Smash shown until after November 1st, he wasn't even one of the "franchise characters" featured in the 1st SSB4 trailer (being replaced by Pit/Kid Icarus, even when all the other O8 characters and franchises were present).

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

You seem to have this assumption that characters need to have history with Nintendo to get into Smash, but that's not true. At this point, it's clear that Smash is a celebration of gaming as a whole, not just Nintendo. And so what if KHIII isn't confirmed to be released on the Switch yet? Why would that stop Sora from getting in? I don't think you realize just how much insane hype his inclusion would lead to. The Internet would explode with hype even more than when Cloud was revealed. Geno is a nobody. There is nothing that could be gained by including him in Smash. He is a dead character. He has no games or merchandise coming out soon. More people need to realize this.

Nintendo history was never a major requirement when it came to 3rd Parties: Cloud, Bayo, Ryu/Ken edit: Can't forget Snake

But neither is relevancy: Ices, G&W, Ness, Pitt, Captain Falcon, K.Rool, Ridley

The last two especially are examples of characters getting in not for their relevancy to their respective franchises or even their likelyhood of reappearance in the future (As far as we can tell K.Rool is dead to the Donkey Kong series), it was based on fan demand

Sakurai isn't just basing his picks on the biggest names of the time, if anything PP is also an example of that

 

[Untouch]

Steve I could see selling, but I feel the Granblue audience just doesn't care for Smash at all.
The audience that is super into it and spend a lot of money is small like all mobile games.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Just curious, do we have a list of all the visible characters seen at the start of the story cinematic? I think we have a few MIA’s whose deaths weren’t shown on screen. Like K Rool and Simon for example.

What do you think they were doing in thier final moments?

I think K. Rool was hiding in a DK barrel, hoping to surprise Diddy Kong. Then he died, randomly.

 

[Thinkaman]

Final Fantasy and Street Fighter have long Nintendo histories, and Bayonetta only exists as a series because of Nintendo's patronage. No idea why this keeps getting brought up, it's annoying.

 

[A.G.L.]

Thank you. I hope Geno fans get this. Though that does make me wonder, why did Sakurai want Geno then? Was it really a pure desire of his? Was it not for the fans to begin with? hmm, who knows.
Well, according to Vergeben. The first DLC is the Square one. A couple of months till that I suppose.

Welcome friend I know how it feels to argue an uphill arguement. And Sakurai has been shown to want characters before and yet not put them in (example balloon fighter). So who knows, iv seen the way Sakurai works is in multiple moves at the same time. He'll be securing a character for Smash, then you will see Nintendo use that character again later. When you think he is doing one thing he's really doing another. It could be that he knows that as a Mii costume will be as far as Geno goes and he wanted to give the fans at least that. We will have to wait and see as to what he is up to.

 

[KMDP]

You know, call me crazy, but I think the choice of actually makes some amount of sense.

But not how you think.

Here's my theory, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen specifically to be a WTF character (although it absolutely serves that purpose); it might have been chosen because some people were asking (in the ballot) to play as Petey Piranha (Boss Pakkun in the JP version), which is obviously unfeasible (the meme argument against applies 100% to Petey Piranha; but unlike Ridley; Petey Piranha is just a bigger form of a manageably sized character).

I thought of this while watching online reactions, someone (I think it was AntDude) referred to Piranha Plant mistakenly as "Petey Piranha" (before the Petey Piranha Final Smash was shown) which is what jogged this thought.

 

[Nethermoosen]

What constitutes a "Nintendo desire?" It seems like you're performing flips and cartwheels to avoid valid points against your arguments

While he may love the fans, he first has a duty to serve Nintendo and get them the most profit possible. Sure, his status gives him wiggle room to include less popular characters, but he's ultimately going to go with what will make the most amount of people happy. It's not like Sakurai's going to back out of a deal if he doesn't get Geno, he's going to go for the next best character. For Sm4sh, it was Cloud, and for Smash Ultimate, it'll be either Sora or Lara Croft.
I think he's come to terms with not getting Geno because he's likely already been denied permission to use him as a playable character repeatedly. For all we know he may have gone for someone with more wide popularity and passed Geno entirely despite his own bias.

Geno just isn't likely, as much as he is desired by the core Smash Bros. fanbase. And even then, the core fanbase is nothing but a loud minority.

Also in terms of KH on Switch the very least they can do is port Kingdom Hearts 1.5 + 2.5 HD Remix. Portable Kingdom Hearts (that isn't a spinoff) is a huge selling point in of itself.

LOUD MINORITIES?! What are you SMOKING!? HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?!
WHERE THE HELL IS GENO AND ISAAC AND BANJO?! IP WAR IS NOT MY VOICE, MYAN!

 

[ButterGeek]

Theory:
The DLC characters are unlocked same way base rosters are, with tiny new sections being added to WoL with Spirits with that fighter as their base
So take Plant for example
It'll unlock a tiny section of WoL with few Spirits based on it (for example: Bellsprout, Chain Chomp, maybe Chomper from Plants vs Zombies if we're doing 3rd party) and then the battle to unlock it. Maybe the 5 DLCs could also have a Boss Fight (Ender Dragon for example if Steve's in). Sakurai's statement would still be true, we would just be getting a Fighter, a Stage and some Music, there would just be a fun way to unlock that fighter.
Tho it's very possible that the fighter just appears in FSS and that's it.

 

[SebasSancy]

Ive never heard of Granblue Fantasy before. It is popular? A new female character would be cool though

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Final Fantasy and Street Fighter have long Nintendo histories, and Bayonetta only exists as a series because of Nintendo's patronage. No idea why this keeps getting brought up, it's annoying.

Final Fantasy does but not so much Cloud, and I guess the argument could be made that Street Fighter have a history with Nintendo but not in the same way Megaman or Simon do. I should've mentioned Snake too now that I remember

I agree with you on Bayo though, Bayo would have never gotten in if it weren't for her basically becoming a first party rep

 

[SuperSceptile15]

Nintendo history was never a major requirement when it came to 3rd Parties: Cloud, Bayo, Ryu/Ken

But neither is relevancy: Ices, G&W, Ness, Pitt, Captain Falcon, K.Rool, Ridley

The last two especially are examples of characters getting in not for their relevancy to their respective franchises or even their likelyhood of reappearance in the future (As far as we can tell K.Rool is dead to the Donkey Kong series), it was based on fan demand

Sakurai isn't just basing his picks on the biggest names of the time, if anything PP is also an example of that

Piranha Plant is a far bigger name than Geno though. Geno started out as a joke, but then people took it too far to the point where they now want him in Smash and have convinced themselves that he's a necessary pick. SMRPG was a fine game, and Geno was a decent character in it, but it's hardly a game that deserves to get special treatment in Smash when the superior Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door exists. What exactly makes Geno more deserving than other Mario RPG characters like Goombella, Vivian, or Paper Mario himself?

 

[ZephyrZ]

One of my predictions, although really a full expectation, was that we'd get just a single echo fighter for free to build good will with DLC and warm people up to the idea. Instead we got an offer in which we could, for a limited time, get a full fledged character for free.

This is a situation where I was 100% okay with being wrong.

You know, call me crazy, but I think the choice of actually makes some amount of sense.

But not how you think.

Here's my theory, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen specifically to be a WTF character (although it absolutely serves that purpose); it might have been chosen because some people were asking (in the ballot) to play as Petey Piranha (Boss Pakkun in the JP version), which is obviously unfeasible (the meme argument against applies 100% to Petey Piranha; but unlike Ridley; Petey Piranha is just a bigger form of a manageably sized character).

I thought of this while watching online reactions, someone (I think it was AntDude) referred to Piranha Plant mistakenly as "Petey Piranha" (before the Petey Piranha Final Smash was shown) which is what jogged this thought.

I doubt that Petey placed exceptionally well on the ballot, but I could see Sakurai brainstorming how he could work as a fighter and then deciding he wanted to include that.

 

[blackghost]

Since when did having reach in the west have any relevance? Marth and Roy were Japan-only characters. Not to mention we've gotten characters that had a ton of reach in the west but were literally whos in Japan (Little Mac).

bad comparison. little mac had been in the game in brawl before 4, also US and europe market>>>>>>>japan in terms of consumer spending.
also marth and roy weren't dlc. they came with the game. so once again doesnt fit.

 

[Arcadenik]

1. Toad
2. Toad
3. Toad
4. Toad
5. Toad

The point is, any character that is a part of a moveset, is now possible, be it Final Smash or Peach and Daisy's throws and counters.

This. 100x this.

Piranha Plant is a generic species and it still got in. So people need to stop using the "he is a generic species" argument against Toad.

And Piranha Plant doesn't even jump in the games other than certain sub-species like Jumping Piranha Plant (Super Mario World) and Glad Piranha Plant (Super Princess Peach). So people need to stop using the "he can't jump" argument against Captain Toad too.

 

[Dixie Kong]

I think after the initial disappointment, many of us are now thinking things through, and are excited again to play this awesome looking game.

 

[Nethermoosen]

You know, call me crazy, but I think the choice of actually makes some amount of sense.

But not how you think.

Here's my theory, Piranha Plant wasn't chosen specifically to be a WTF character (although it absolutely serves that purpose); it might have been chosen because some people were asking (in the ballot) to play as Petey Piranha (Boss Pakkun in the JP version), which is obviously unfeasible (the meme argument against applies 100% to Petey Piranha; but unlike Ridley; Petey Piranha is just a bigger form of a manageably sized character).

I thought of this while watching online reactions, someone (I think it was AntDude) referred to Piranha Plant mistakenly as "Petey Piranha" (before the Petey Piranha Final Smash was shown) which is what jogged this thought.

I was thinking he was a request on the ballot that was on the opposite end of top ballot pick. Maybe he wanted to surprise those poor folks who just knew he was never getting in.

 

[GoeGoe]

You seem to have this assumption that characters need to have history with Nintendo to get into Smash, but that's not true. At this point, it's clear that Smash is a celebration of gaming as a whole, not just Nintendo. And so what if KHIII isn't confirmed to be released on the Switch yet? Why would that stop Sora from getting in? I don't think you realize just how much insane hype his inclusion would lead to. The Internet would explode with hype even more than when Cloud was revealed. Geno is a nobody. There is nothing that could be gained by including him in Smash. He is a dead character. He has no games or merchandise coming out. More people need to realize this.

You seem to have the assumption that your explanation of my staement is what you've written, that's not true.
Insane.. explode.. !! Ok. you could've said "I'm a Sora fan". But hey, I'm not a Geno fan but I won't call him a nobody. If so then Sora is a nobody too, I don't see a Sora costume in Smash. Why do you diss other's wishes? You like Sora, fine. So does Geno fans, they like Geno.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Dude, I remember someone saying a while ago that when the next Direct would come people would forget there even was a box.
That guy was wrong.

The fact that the box theorists were right honestly makes me feel humiliated. I’m not even sure why, perhaps it’s because most of them were so smug about it.

I’m surprised that box theory was real because it seemed like it would be one of those fan theories from the last two release cycles (Brawl and Smash 4) that invariably turned out to be fake because they were based on faulty assumptions. I mean it seemed inconceivable that Nintendo would show off the box render if it could be used to deduce the roster size, but honestly these are the same people who have allowed Lucario and Ganondorf to leak before in stupid ways, so maybe I should just generally stop overestimating companies when it comes to this stuff.

 

[Koopaul]

Maybe Sakurai had great moveset ideas for a plant so he added Piranha Plant just to satisfy those ideas.

Maybe Piranha Plant was super easy to make and decided to add him as a bonus.

 

[Flyboy]

My dream for DLC is Elma, Sora, Dante, Ryu Hayabusa, and Doomguy.

Solid selection. I like it a lot. It's not my preferred reps for Capcom and Bethesda but it's a unique and varies roster.

(I just want Phoenix too much...)

 

[KMDP]

I doubt that Petey placed exceptionally well on the ballot, but I could see Sakurai brainstorming how he could work as a fighter and then deciding he wanted to include that.

All it takes is for a few crazy people (or kids) to make such an absolutely insane request and for Sakurai to see it. Then for Sakurai to say "Hey, that's not such a bad idea..."

I was thinking he was a request on the ballot that was on the opposite end of top ballot pick. Maybe he wanted to surprise those poor folks who just knew he was never getting in.

Also this.

I didn't say it was a top pick or "ballot winner" or something, just that people were voting.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

You seem to have the assumption that your explanation of my staement is what you've written, that's not true.
Insane.. explode.. !! Ok. you could've said "I'm a Sora fan". But hey, I'm not a Geno fan but I won't call him a nobody. If so then Sora is a nobody too, I don't see a Sora costume in Smash. Why do you diss other's wishes? You like Sora, fine. So does Geno fans, they like Geno.

There are far more Sora fans than Geno fans, and Kingdom Hearts is far bigger and more popular than a spinoff game released at the end of the SNES's life cycle. It's a fact. Most Mario fans don't even know who Geno is.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

You seem to have the assumption that your explanation of my staement is what you've written, that's not true.
Insane.. explode.. !! Ok. you could've said "I'm a Sora fan". But hey, I'm not a Geno fan but I won't call him a nobody. If so then Sora is a nobody too, I don't see a Sora costume in Smash. Why do you diss other's wishes? You like Sora, fine. So does Geno fans, they like Geno.

What?

Your argument as to why Geno is more likely than Sora has devolved into you accusing your opponents of blind fanboyism and saying that they're "attacking others wishes?" When you did the very same thing by saying that Sora isn't possible because Sakurai loves Geno too much?

There's no point arguing against you if you're just going to argue nonsense.

 

[Nethermoosen]

All it takes is for a few crazy people (or kids) to make such an absolutely insane request and for Sakurai to see it. Then for Sakurai to say "Hey, that's not such a bad idea..."

Also this.

I didn't say it was a top pick or "ballot winner" or something, just that people were voting.

I do wanna clarify, when I said opposite end of top ballot, I meant opposite of top in general. As in bottom pick. Lol.
You probably got that, but I just wanted to make sure my terrible English was corrected.

 

[Flyboy]

What constitutes a "Nintendo desire?" A character wanted by Nintendo? A character wanted by fans of Nintendo? But then what constitutes a "fan of Nintendo?" See how such a vague term can be confusing? It seems like you just came up with a buzzword to avoid valid points against your arguments.

While he may love the fans, Sakurai first has a duty to serve Nintendo and get them the most profit possible. Sure, his status gives him wiggle room to include less popular characters, but he's ultimately going to go with what will make the most amount of people happy. It's not like Sakurai's going to back out of a deal if he doesn't get Geno, he's going to go for the next best character. For Sm4sh, it was Cloud, and for Smash Ultimate, it'll be either Sora or Lara Croft.
I think he's come to terms with not getting Geno because he's likely already been denied permission to use him as a playable character repeatedly. For all we know he may have gone for someone with more wide popularity and passed Geno entirely despite his own bias.

Geno just isn't likely, as much as he is desired by the core Smash Bros. fanbase. And even then, the core fanbase is nothing but a loud minority.

Also in terms of KH on Switch the very least they can do is port Kingdom Hearts 1.5 + 2.5 HD Remix. Portable Kingdom Hearts (that isn't a spinoff) is a huge selling point in of itself.

I'm not gonna lie, if they could get Birth By Sleep on Switch that'd be great. Of course, then I'd be practically begging for playable Aqua over Sora but that's life.

 

[ShinyRegice]

Now that the Direct is over here's my updated bingo:

Spoiler

(To be sure everyone doesn't misunderstand t's Shovel Knight who's supposed to say "At least I'm in the game")

There are some spaces I haven't checked as valid or invalid as I wait for more info, but the Stealth Rock and Pokémon boss spaces seem pretty unlikely at this point. That said, regardless of what happens, I know I don't get to fill an entire line.

About the box hypothesis, I remember the arguments I had with some other people, it turned into a debate about semantics for word like "turning out", "now" and "total"; I was arguing the way words were used suggested we were getting nothing more for the base game, while other people argued that the SSS would look weird and that it didn't look like Sakurai would do. And guess what? We were BOTH right, considering stages are planed as DLC... as long as we get one more stage besides the five promised DLC ones. (There are six spaces) Part of me believe it would be the stage builder icon, but I'd be surprised if it ends up not being talked about in the last Direct in retrospect. Maybe we'll get an isolated new stage not sold with a character like how it seems like Piranha Plant looks like it'll be the only fighter sold alone; maybe we'll get a location from Metroid Prime 4 or the next region of Pokémon, if we can't get characters from these due to being too recent, but if this potential bonus stage was also decided in advance like the DLC characters were then it's not happening either.

One more thought about Spirits since some Geno and Dixie Kong supporters (among others) seem to be freaking out that they've been seen as Spirits. As they're this game's equivalent to trophies and those didn't prevent Mewtwo and Lucas from getting in then I think it's unlikely that they deconfirmed those characters; in addition it was already pointed out that some playable characters already have Spirits too, like K. Rool, WFT and Inkling. However it may be interesting to note that these Spirits are not based on the default apearance of their respective playable characters (Kaptain instead of King, male instead of female, squid instead of kid respectively); if we get spirits for things like the Koopalings, Helicopter Mario, female Corrin, Skyward Sword Zelda or Morph Ball Samus but none for their default appearance then we might have a reason to be worried. That said I think the default position should be that Spirits are not deconfirmations for DLC, and I would like to see a Piranha Plant Spirit to confirm it.

Also I can't be the only one who thought about that when seeing Yoshi's new Final Smash:

Would have fit better if I found footage where the victim was an actual king like Dedede or K. Rool.