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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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FreeFox

Smash Lord
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Anything happen today?
We got information that a video relating to the posible leaker about the company he currently works in has been taken down for unknown reasons. I Will let you decide what this could mean.
 
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doomedtacox

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the only reason why melee had a hellish development schedule and why sonic was a last-minute addition to the game was because there was no way to add characters post-development. in the era of dlc, it makes no ****ing sense whatsoever to pressure and overwork your team with a last minute character addition when all of their focus and time should be on polishing and finishing the game up. it's just bad planning that is very uncharacteristic of someone like sakurai.
Adding Banjo late seems like the kind of challenge Sakurai would love, the dude is a workaholic.
 

lurxy

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Considering the whole cut Incineroar debate right now: Has anyone considered that Microsoft maybe made it their condition to have Banjo in the base game because they would get more royalties that way?
If i remember correctly, companies only get the royalties for the DLC if their character was added later on and with this they would get the full share.

Has this been considered yet?
 

Pakky

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He uses a completely different model, though.

Also, let's not kid ourselves, Inklings were the top priority, regardless of who was the most popular.
True, though I meant the animations.

But yeah just based on well everything Inklings were on top

#Woomy
 

Arcanir

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To believe that Sakurai put in Banjo at E3, you have to believe:
A) That Sakurai was able to craft a moveset, design a model, program said character and balance it in less then a fourth of the time it takes to make a character (sakurai stated it takes over a year).
B) That he sidelined a character that was likely much farther along and could've been finished in that timr instead of pushing it off to DLC.
C) Managed to not delay the game despite the Sonic example doing just that.

I'm sorry PapaGenos, but I don't buy that. If Banjo is in the base game he likely was done much earlier then E3, assuming that he was done in four months flies in the face of what we know about Smash's development.
 

StarLight42

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I'm not sure if I buy Genos' theory.
I find it hard to believe that they'd start development on a brand new character as late as June 2018.

Then again, we never knew how late they started development on Sonic in Brawl, so I simply don't know.
 

John Dylan Smith

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Real talk, if the next Direct confirms that the leak is real, and Isaac and Banjo & Kazooie get revealed, I will lose my mind.
I still think we need to see them release a 100/50 facts Extravaganza video for Smash Ultimate like the one they gave us for Smash For Wii-U/3DS (There's still alot more things aside from new characters we need information on such as the new modes)!
 

Noipoi

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He uses a completely different model, though.

Also, let's not kid ourselves, Inklings were the top priority, regardless of who was the most popular.
Their mechanic had to be meticulously crafted to work on every character on every stage. Including bosses and single player stuff.
They absolutely got top priority.
 

Mc.Rad

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Considering the whole cut Incineroar debate right now: Has anyone considered that Microsoft maybe made it their condition to have Banjo in the base game because they would get more royalties that way?
If i remember correctly, companies only get the royalties for the DLC if their character was added later on and with this they would get the full share.

Has this been considered yet?
Honestly if this was the case we would have seen max shilling with rare ips... which we see less and less of due to Microsoft rare’s History...
 

Idon

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Again, how do you know SEGA didn't want 2 of his specials to be that similar? Maybe they just didn't accept any other ideas Sakurai made for specials, forcing two of them to be similar.
Because it's not just that. A significant amount of his moveset in Brawl revolves (pun intended) around turning into an easily animated sphere including up smash, down smash, neutral air, dash attack, down throw, getup attack, ledge attack, and the aforemented specials.

Unless Sega forgot a ton of stuff Sonic could do and denied a more varied moveset, it seems pretty likely he was rushed.
 
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doomedtacox

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That's what gets me too.

No offense to anyone, of course, but I feel like a lot of the "anti-insider" crowd really are just saying that cause they're challenging their desires.

I'd go as far as to say I would consider every insider's actions, including people like PapaGenos, under the same filter.
It's really not hard to understand. So many of the insiders come off as condescending and elitist. Papa comes off as the exact opposite, a down to Earth dude who's just trying his best to get to the bottom of this, all the while being completely honest.

So many of the insiders refuse to talk about why the leak is fake beyond "it's missing some characters". That isn't very helpful.

If an insider took the opposite side as Papa and doesn't come off as a jerk and explains their thought process, I doubt they'd be harassed themselves.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Megaman: his moveset represents the weapons that he uses in the main series plus a move from MvC.

Pac-Man: moves based on Namco’s arcade games, Pac-Man and Pac-Land.

Ryu: takes from his moveset in the Street Fighter games.

Cloud: moveset that can be upgraded with a Limit mechanic.

Bayonetta: moves taken straight from the games.

Belmonts: moves that use the Vampire Killer and many weapons from the Castlevania games.

Sonic: Besides the bouncer... He turns into a ball for most of his moves.


Overall: i find Sonic’s moveset more basic than the ones from the other Third Party characters.
 

Confirmation

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Going with that...one thing I gotta say is if you compare Papagenos to the other insiders he's doing the same thing. Telling you to trust him without providing additional evidence.

Now I don't blame him! It's what insiders have to do. But it's interesting he comes out as a hero for it because he's agreeing with the leak opposed to the insiders who are considered "smug, elitist, rude etc".

I'm just saying I don't see what Papagenos is doing that other insiders aren't...if someone could clarify I'll take it back, not trying to seem like a jerk or anything!
Going with that...one thing I gotta say is if you compare Papagenos to the other insiders he's doing the same thing. Telling you to trust him without providing additional evidence.

Now I don't blame him! It's what insiders have to do. But it's interesting he comes out as a hero for it because he's agreeing with the leak opposed to the insiders who are considered "smug, elitist, rude etc".

I'm just saying I don't see what Papagenos is doing that other insiders aren't...if someone could clarify I'll take it back, not trying to seem like a jerk or anything!
He's openly said he's doing it just to get info out and has taken a real personal stance in spite of the risks to his reputation considering the very real risk it's false. Heck, he even demonetized the video which puts him miles above the rest in my eyes.
 

Cosmic77

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Going with that...one thing I gotta say is if you compare Papagenos to the other insiders he's doing the same thing. Telling you to trust him without providing additional evidence.

Now I don't blame him! It's what insiders have to do. But it's interesting he comes out as a hero for it because he's agreeing with the leak opposed to the insiders who are considered "smug, elitist, rude etc".

I'm just saying I don't see what Papagenos is doing that other insiders aren't...if someone could clarify I'll take it back, not trying to seem like a jerk or anything!
Well, you're not wrong.

I'm trying to take what every insider says seriously, Papagenos included. Everyone seems pretty adament about being right, so I don't doubt for a minute that most of these guys have a lot of faith in their sources.

That being said, I don't see how people can attack other insiders for being wrong with this leak and then turn right around and claim Papagenos knows what he's talking about. Aside from where he stands on the leak, how is he different than any other insider who we've recently deemed as crazy and unreliable?

Maybe Papageno's source is bigger than I realize, but he did admit that this person was a fairly new source for him. Compare that to the insiders who have sources who have already proven multiple times that they know what they're talking about. I feel like this is something people should acknowledge more often, especially if they want to use Papagenos as evidence for this being real.

Papagenos is nice, and I'm sure he thinks his source is honest. It's just that I don't know what else this person has gotten correct before. Until I do, I honestly can't put too much credit into what the source says, or at the very least, not as much as the other guys who've already proven themselves.
 
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DiamondJoyride

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Because it's not just that. A significant amount of his moveset in Brawl revolves (pun intended) around turning into an easily animated sphere including up smash, down smash, neutral air, dash attack, down throw, getup attack, ledge attack, and the aforemented specials.

Unless Sega forgot a ton of stuff Sonic could do, it seems pretty likely he was rushed.


just like his games
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Their mechanic had to be meticulously crafted to work on every character on every stage. Including bosses and single player stuff.
They absolutely got top priority.
I mean, let's not forget that people talked about how their mechanic wouldn't work in 4 during its speculation cycle, after what happened in regards to some characters that would strain the 3DS (Samus and Zelda got their alter egos split up, Ice Climbers were a no-show, so were most of the Pokémon Trainer crew). It was a fairly educated guess. So it would make sense that the Inklings came first.
 
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Dejime

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Something I find strange about the theory of Incineroar being cut from base game, be it left for DLC or cut completely is that Game Freak is a second party of Nintendo and is not 100% owned by it, so they could have a lot of marketing and merchandising plans in motion once the Pokemon gains more fame from Smash, it could affect the relationship between the companies. If a character is cut or delayed it would be more logical for it to be one 100% owned by Nintendo, like Mach Rider or Chorus Kids...
 
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lurxy

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Honestly if this was the case we would have seen max shilling with rare ips... which we see less and less of due to Microsoft rare’s History...
Except that it is completely different to allow another company to use your IP, do all the work for you and earn you money or to develop a completely new game from the scratch. If you ask me, those scenarios are barely comparable.
 

Chrollo.

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To believe that Sakurai put in Banjo at E3, you have to believe:
A) That Sakurai was able to craft a moveset, design a model, program said character and balance it in less then a fourth of the time it takes to make a character (sakurai stated it takes over a year).
B) That he sidelined a character that was likely much farther along and could've been finished in that timr instead of pushing it off to DLC.
C) Managed to not delay the game despite the Sonic example doing just that.

I'm sorry PapaGenos, but I don't buy that. If Banjo is in the base game he likely was done much earlier then E3, assuming that he was done in four months flies in the face of what we know about Smash's development.
Thats why I think if the theory is true, Sakurai and Microsoft already had a handshake deal months beforehand and only just got around to finalizing the paperwork at E3. Handshake deals are still legitimate, they’re just not as strong as paperwork. With a handshake deal they could’ve easily started on him months earlier. I also doubt Incineroar was cut purely because of Banjo and moreso a combination of things.
 

Pyra

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We live in an era of booming DLC. If Sakurai wanted to make a last-minute addition (i.e. Banjo), then DLC is the best possible method.
Okay, sure, but I don't think it's terribly hard to believe they could accomplish a character addition mid development, especially they did end up swapping Incineroar's development time for Banjo's or something.

It would be different if there was actually a net gain of one character.

I'm not saying it's happened, but I don't think it's that much of a stretch tbh

I don't think any of us actually know the metrics as to how long it takes for them to develop a new character in this development cycle specifically.

It's really not hard to understand. So many of the insiders come off as condescending and elitist. Papa comes off as the exact opposite, a down to Earth dude who's just trying his best to get the bottom of this, all the while being completely honest.

So many of the insiders refuse to talk about why the leak is fake beyond "it's missing some characters". That isn't very helpful.

If an insider took the opposite side as Papa and doesn't come off as a jerk and explains their thought process, I doubt they'd be harassed themselves.
I don't disagree with some of them being asses, but how bad they make people feel doesn't make what they say any more or less valid as far as I care.
Those insiders are also in a significantly more elevated position than people like Papagenos. And you can't make me believe they wouldn't have been harassed anyway. Haha
 
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Paperluigi11

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Haven’t been here in a long time. One plausible thing I can see with what papagenos is saying about incineroar being cut would be that incineroar would have likely been mostly complete even when being dropped for Banjo’s development. This could lead to incineroar being day 1 dlc by being finished up after the game had gone gold. I also think incineroar would be the one most likely to be made day 1 dlc to tie in with the Nintendo online subscription as he would probably be the best candidate to draw people into the subscription. Basically choosing incineroar wouldn’t have been about who would be the character who would have been the least missed from the base roster, but the character who would draw the most people to Nintendo’s online subscription out of the remaining fighters.
 

CosmicQuark

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Well, you're not wrong.

I'm trying to take what every insider says seriously, Papagenos included. Everyone seems pretty adament about being right, so I don't doubt for a minute that most of these guys have a lot of faith in their sources.

That being said, I don't see how people can attack other insiders for being wrong with this leak then and turn right around and claim Papagenos knows what he's talking about. Aside from where he stands on the leak, how is he different than any other insider who we've recently deemed as crazy and unreliable?

Maybe Papageno's source is bigger than I realize, but he did admit that this person was a fairly new source for him. Compare that to the insiders who have sources who have already proven multiple times that they know what they're talking about. I feel like this is something people should acknowledge more often, especially if they want to use Papagenos as evidence for this being real.

Papagenos is nice, and I'm sure he thinks his source is honest. It's just that I don't know what else this person has gotten correct before. Until I do, I honestly can't put too much credit into what the source says.
Again, the reason why people don't believe the insiders who are against the leak because when they give the reasons they're allowed to share in public--it doesn't directly contradict the banner. And their complete dismissal of the banner is disproportionate to the actual information they are sharing in public. They may know stuff in private--but we don't know, and so we can only speculate on what they give to us.
 

G Rank Zinogre

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To believe that Sakurai put in Banjo at E3, you have to believe:
A) That Sakurai was able to craft a moveset, design a model, program said character and balance it in less then a fourth of the time it takes to make a character (sakurai stated it takes over a year).
B) That he sidelined a character that was likely much farther along and could've been finished in that timr instead of pushing it off to DLC.
C) Managed to not delay the game despite the Sonic example doing just that.

I'm sorry PapaGenos, but I don't buy that. If Banjo is in the base game he likely was done much earlier then E3, assuming that he was done in four months flies in the face of what we know about Smash's development.
Yeah, I still find the whole idea pretty out there as well. But on your first point, Sakurai *did* manage to draft Greninja's moveset in a single night, so I don't think that part is necessarily impossible. Especially in B&K's case, when he has things to pull from.
 

TVDart

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PapaGeno's theory has a lot of assumptions within it. While it's plausible, I don't think it sounds legitimate. That being said, I commend him for coming up with an interesting idea for how this could all make sense; it's just a very convoluted theory.
 

Pyra

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I'm doubling down on something interesting happening this week, and this week specifically, either over the course of it or at Nintendo Live.
 

Yoshisaurus Rex

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Just gonna say that there should be no way the game would be delayed to fit in a character when DLC is much more common now.

Before I forget, Happy Birthday @JDCabrera
 
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CosmicQuark

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Yeah, I still find the whole idea pretty out there as well. But on your first point, Sakurai *did* manage to draft Greninja's moveset in a single night, so I don't think that part is necessarily impossible. Especially in B&K's case, when he has things to pull from.
They could essentially rip their moveset directly from Banjo-Kazooie and it would work naturally in Smash. Though, I think what takes the years of work and development is balancing. Adding a character is like multiplication, balance-wise. We'll have to see, though. :upsidedown:
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I think part of the theory kind of sounds like a compromise so that "insiders" don't look like liars or fools. Just not informed of more recent happenings.

I don't think it's really a do or die type of thing.
 

Fenriraga

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To believe that Sakurai put in Banjo at E3, you have to believe:
A) That Sakurai was able to craft a moveset, design a model, program said character and balance it in less then a fourth of the time it takes to make a character (sakurai stated it takes over a year).
B) That he sidelined a character that was likely much farther along and could've been finished in that timr instead of pushing it off to DLC.
C) Managed to not delay the game despite the Sonic example doing just that.

I'm sorry PapaGenos, but I don't buy that. If Banjo is in the base game he likely was done much earlier then E3, assuming that he was done in four months flies in the face of what we know about Smash's development.
As a counterpoint, :ultbayonetta: and :ultcloud: and :ultcorrin: certainly had much less than a year of development time, and they all turned out fine. (Well, "fine" being subjective in the case of Bayo :V)

And that was with a supposedly smaller team since they were DLC.
 
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D

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I'm doubling down on something interesting happening this week, and this week specifically, either over the course of it or at Nintendo Live.
TBH I've been feeling like Nintendo Live is gonna have something for a few days now. I think chances are pretty good we could at the very least get a Direct date there, similar to 8.8's EVO announcement.
 

Cosmic77

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Again, the reason why people don't believe the insiders who are against the leak because when they give the reasons they're allowed to share in public--it doesn't directly contradict the banner. And their complete dismissal of the banner is disproportionate to the actual information they are sharing in public. They may know stuff in private--but we don't know, and so we can only speculate on what they give to us.
But that still doesn't mean you should automatically believe them less than a source who lacks the same track record. It's not fair to say, "You're being incredibly vague and not giving me the answer I want, therefore nothing you say should be taken seriously".

Base your opinions on what they've gotten right before, not what lines up with what you think is right.
 

DiamondJoyride

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They could essentially rip their moveset directly from Banjo-Kazooie and it would work naturally in Smash. Though, I think what takes the years of work and development is balancing. Adding a character is like multiplication, balance-wise. We'll have to see, though. :upsidedown:
i've never played a banjo game. how do you think it'd go?
 

doomedtacox

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sakurai is a good planner, not a mindless workaholic. also can we stop romanticizing overworking yourself? especially since sakurai has actual physical injuries thanks to his work schedule.
You can plan around extra work. It's not impossible that they hired extra people specifically to account for this. There's no way of us knowing for sure.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Megaman: his moveset represents the weapons that he uses in the main series plus a move from MvC.

Pac-Man: moves based on Namco’s arcade games, Pac-Man and Pac-Land.

Ryu: takes from his moveset in the Street Fighter games.

Cloud: moveset that can be upgraded with a Limit mechanic.

Bayonetta: moves taken straight from the games.

Belmonts: moves that use the Vampire Killer and many weapons from the Castlevania games.

Sonic: Besides the bouncer... He turns into a ball for most of his moves.


Overall: i find Sonic’s moveset more basic than the ones from the other Third Party characters.
I think his Rider Kick-esque dair is kind of cool.

They could essentially rip their moveset directly from Banjo-Kazooie and it would work naturally in Smash. Though, I think what takes the years of work and development is balancing. Adding a character is like multiplication, balance-wise. We'll have to see, though. :upsidedown:
Especially given that Tooie gives them even more to work with. At that point, it's a game of pick and choose.
 
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