Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

It hasn't been so for so long after all.

Came back years after their titular game.
andcame back nearly two decades after the GBC game
Same as Ice Climbers

I can go on.

And before people says why they're different from K. Rool. If you really get down to it relevancy doesn't really matter with fiction as a whole since Rocko and Invader Zim are returning with TV specials years after their cancellations.

Or the fact that Ribbon and Adeleine returned in Star Allies with their last appearance having been Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards. Heck pretty certain many characters throughout fiction has been absent for a decade or more and eventually returned. It isn't only exclusive to Smash yo.

You just named all retro characters. You can't justify that with "ALL fiction does this" because that isn't Smash, just other fiction.

Relevancy matters to an extent.

Yeah but I get his point about Ridley. This is a character that was legit touted as "not possible" for the longest time, denied twice by Sakurai, and the butt of jokes for years. Even with his relevance to Metroid, he was seen as an impossibility.

Despite all that though, he's managed to make it in, with basically all the odds against him.

Geno would also be an underdog, moreso than Ridley for sure. But that doesn't make Ridley's story any less of an underdog one.

Absolutely but the point was that it WAS more of an underdog story than Geno which I refuted

 

[AugustusB]

I wouldn't say the game is entirely for the base fans, this is the Switch we're talking about here. The characters they're adding though are definitely scoring points with old hardcore fans and new ones alike.

As for relevancy? Saying it means NOTHING is an oversight. It's less important than before, sure, but relevancy still plays a small role.
Just because a character is irrelevant it doesn't hurt their chances or means they won't get in... But just because a character is relevant, or was at the time of 2015-2016, it doesn't necessarily mean it means nothing to them either.

Perhaps nothing is a strong word. The gist is voices are being heard. How long until they fall on deaf ears again? Who knows.

 

[Luigi The President]

A character Sakurai actually likes.
I honestly felt Geno was more likely than Ridley at E3 up until Ridley was revealed. At least Geno fans had the fact Sakurai stated to like him, and the Mii Outfit to hold on to.

Ridley supporters though? The guy himself said he probably wouldn't make it in due to being too big, something we were all sick of for a pretty long time, and all we had to hold onto was the hopes that Sakurai would change his mind as he did with Villager and Pac-Man.

I understand this but I feel that ONE virtue of "Sakurai likes him though" that people held onto for so long doesn't really substantiate as much as Ridley

 

[Michael the Spikester]

You just named all retro characters. You can't justify that with "ALL fiction does this" because that isn't Smash, just other fiction.

Relevancy matters to an extent.


Absolutely but the point was that it WAS more of an underdog story than Geno which I refuted

*Cough*Ribbon and Adelenine*Cough*

Last I checked they were absent up until Star Allies since Kirby 64.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You guys know that K.Rool might have gotten in, in spite of no recent appearances, instead of it not being a factor, right?

 

[Luigi The President]

*Cough*Ribbon and Adelenine*Cough*

*cough* Literally an entirely different game which brings back characters from ONE series history unlike Smash which brings back a character from a COMPANIES entire history *cough*

 

[alemerltoucanet]

Today is October 23rd.

It is also the 4th anniversary of the 50 Fact Extravaganza

I'm still living in October 22nd lol.

Anyways, they should just drop an Incineroar reveal just for the heck of it like a reference to Mewtwo being revealed.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

And so what if those characters were retro? Fact remains they were absent until their inclusions in Smash.

Ugh this is why I hate the relevancy debate even when characters like K. Rool gets added there's still debate about it...-_-

 

[amazonevan19]

Yeah but I get his point about Ridley. This is a character that was legit touted as "not possible" for the longest time, denied twice by Sakurai, and the butt of jokes for years. Even with his relevance to Metroid, he was seen as an impossibility.

Despite all that though, he's managed to make it in, with basically all the odds against him.

Geno would also be an underdog, moreso than Ridley for sure. But that doesn't make Ridley's story any less of an underdog one.

Ridley was much more an underdog given how Sakurai BTFO'd him from consideration very much up until his inclusion, really.

Geno, on the contrary, has been lathered with nothing but positivity from Sakurai, Mii Costume, the whole shebang.

Ridley def has fan demand and a solid spot on the Metroid roster of characters as benefits, whereas Geno has been dead for 22 years. Therefore I'd conclude that Ridley was much more of an underdog than Geno is now, as you should be weighting director comments much heavier then mere relevance. Doesn't matter if a character is the most relevant to their franchise if Sakurai can't envision a moveset/doesn't want them in.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And so what if those characters were retro? Fact remains they were absent until their inclusions in Smash.

Ugh this is why I hate the relevancy debate even when characters like K. Rool gets added there's still debate about it...-_-

It's because you're focusing on the exceptions and not the norms.

You're saying its BTFO'd.

It isn't. Things just happen in spite of it.

 

[Luigi The President]

And so what if those characters were retro? Fact remains they were absent until their inclusions in Smash.

Ugh this is why I hate the relevancy debate even when characters like K. Rool gets added there's still debate about it...-_-

Because the reason they RETURNED is due to being retro and a throwback

Ridley was much more an underdog given how Sakurai BTFO'd him from consideration very much up until his inclusion, really.

Geno, on the contrary, has been lathered with nothing but positivity from Sakurai, Mii Costume, the whole shebang.

Ridley def has fan demand and a solid spot on the Metroid roster of characters as benefits, whereas Geno has been dead for 22 years. Therefore I'd conclude that Ridley was much more of an underdog than Geno is now, as you should be weighting director comments much heavier then mere relevance. Doesn't matter if a character is the most relevant to their franchise if Sakurai can't envision a moveset/doesn't want them in.

And there's so many other Mario characters with just as much if not more moveset potential than Geno

Honestly I feel that we're getting too ahead of ourselves and jinxing it when Geno may not even be in

 

[Locuan]

For me I never expected or wanted any character to be included specifically with Ultimate. However, when I saw Ridley and K. Rool it was basically, "The flood gates have been open. Anything is possible." Since then I started wishing for Geno and Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If you really do think about it K. Rool could count as a retro in some way.

 

[Noipoi]

Geno's got a lot of things going for him, but he's got some hurdles to jump through too.

 

[Luigi The President]

For me I never expected or wanted any character to be included specifically with Ultimate. However, when I saw Ridley and K. Rool it was basically, "The flood gates have been open. Anything is possible." Since then I started wishing for Geno and Banjo-Kazooie.

When the fella who's been around since 2005 wants Geno you know he's had some constant presence
(and B-K. Love you bear and bird)

 

[CosmicQuark]

My issue with speculating on Geno is while we had an SNES, I had never heard of Super Mario RPG (which makes sense, since it sold a lot more in Japan than the US). Given all of the similarities between Geno and Banjo, if one must make it but not the other, even trying to check my bias, Banjo & Kazooie makes the most sense. Been wanted since Melee, incredibly popular in 2015 during the ballot--I feel like what differentiates them is a) Banjo & Kazooie were heads of their own franchise with two financially and critically successful games and b) a Microsoft character (previously owned by Nintendo) would make the most waves in terms of third party hype, between the two.

All that having been said, I'd hate for one to get in the base without the other, which is why in all of my predictions I try to keep them together, until further evidence leads me to make more cuts (I've already cut it 15 times since August).

The way I see DLC working for Ultimate (at least a big chunk of it) is going to go like this.

-Base game is for the fans. This is incredibly apparent with how Sakurai and his team is building up the game. EVERYONE IS HERE! Little touches to the game that are a luxury to the fan base (Customize Rules at the beginning, Stages get picked first, Chargeable Final Smashes, minor fighter tweeks, 800+ music tracks, 103 (+?) Stages) He did not have to do this, but clearly, Sakurai is listening to the fans.

-Relevancy means NOTHING: Look at . No one was gonna expect him to make the game, But lo and behold. People, who don't know who he is, are HYPE for his inclusion. (I asked around work and random people I met at comic book stores and what not and I get 'he looks cool' or 'I remember him!')

With that out of the way, I see a scenario like this happening.

Geno base, Sora DLC - More people know who Sora is. He will sell like hot cakes to the people wanting them in Smash.

(My Dream, we'll see) Banjo & Kazooie base, Steve? DLC - The biggest boom would be this I feel. 'A former Nintendo character comes back to Smash!'. Now tell me that is NOT an exciting news headline for people to read? Again, people know who Steve? is. More hot cakes to be sold.

This is a rant on my part and an opinion. However you slice it, this game will be amazing for a LONG time.

That's how I feel. I feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Banjo & Kazooie. They're popular or unpopular, moneymakers or not, depending on what argument suits someone wanting them for DLC. Of course, my bias is I want them in the base, so I have to check my bias. But I'm consistent, agreeing with you--base game is for fan characters, DLC are for the money-makers. I'd have less of a problem with Steve in the game if Banjo & Kazooie were the priority, given their history with Nintendo and popularity in 2015, two very key aspects of them. And while it should go without saying, all of this is my opinion--not making any objective claims, except for the facts I can cite (e.g., popular since Melee, popular in fan polls, financially/critically successful)

EDIT:

If a leaker can't get their leaks right, they can't expect me to care about getting their name right.

****ing gold.

 

[Luigi The President]

If you really do think about it K. Rool could count as a retro in some way.

He literally couldn't by this standard so would almost every other character
I'm thinking about it and it just isn't lining up chief

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If you really do think about it K. Rool could count as a retro in some way.

Eh....

Do you consider a retro?

I think K.Rool was constant enough to not be considered one. He was included on his own merits. Not to fill a quota like some of the others.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Anyways I don't want to continue with this relevancy debate. Nothing good ever comes out of it and I don't want to get riled up and seeming like a condescending jerk which happened once...

 

[Idon]

And so what if those characters were retro? Fact remains they were absent until their inclusions in Smash.

Ugh this is why I hate the relevancy debate even when characters like K. Rool gets added there's still debate about it...-_-

Yes, but none of them are in an even remotely similar situation as Geno:
Being both 3rd Party and non-relevant.
Either alone, would make logical sense to include, "3rd party, but he's kinda iconic" or "not relevant, but has fans."

You've got to separate Sakuraism picks like retro characters like Icies and GnW, or popular characters like Mac and Shulk,
And 3rd Party legends like Sonic, Cloud, Snake, Megaman, Sichter

Had Nintendo owned the character of Geno, I would say his chances of getting in would be 101%, but with SE holding the rights, it's a completely different story.
Even if relevance might not matter to Sakurai (it does, if not a little), it would probably matter for Square Enix.

 

[Luigi The President]

My issue with speculating on Geno is while we had an SNES, I had never heard of Super Mario RPG (which makes sense, since it sold a lot more in Japan than the US). Given all of the similarities between Geno and Banjo, if one must make it but not the other, even trying to check my bias, Banjo & Kazooie makes the most sense. Been wanted since Melee, incredibly popular in 2015 during the ballot--I feel like what differentiates them is a) Banjo & Kazooie were heads of their own franchise with two financially and critically successful games and b) a Microsoft character (previously owned by Nintendo) would make the most waves in terms of third party hype, between the two.

All that having been said, I'd hate for one to get in the base without the other, which is why in all of my predictions I try to keep them together, until further evidence leads me to make more cuts (I've already cut it 15 times since August).



That's how I feel. I feel like there's a double standard when it comes to Banjo & Kazooie. They're popular or unpopular, moneymakers or not, depending on what argument suits someone wanting them for DLC. Of course, my bias is I want them in the base, so I have to check my bias. But I'm consistent, agreeing with you--base game is for fan characters, DLC are for the money-makers. I'd have less of a problem with Steve in the game if Banjo & Kazooie were the priority, given their history with Nintendo and popularity in 2015, two very key aspects of them. And while it should go without saying, all of this is my opinion--not making any objective claims, except for the facts I can cite (e.g., popular since Melee, popular in fan polls, financially/critically successful)

See you have very valid and very good points except one's a Microsoft character and one isn't
I feel this singlehandedly places Geno above Banjo in likeliness

If Steve's in though that changes everything of course

 

[ZephyrZ]

I always found the argument of "why would Square want to promote Geno over someone else" to be very strange. It'd be Nintendo asking Square to use Geno, not Square offering a character to Nintendo. Besides, the same could be said for the mii costume. "Why would Square give Nintendo the rights to use Geno instead of someone like Tifa".

I'm not really expecting Geno, but copyright seem like a really silly reason to shoot him down at this point.

 

[Good Guy Giygas]

I still find it odd that we're still having discussions about relevancy this late in the speculation cycle. We've already seen that Ultimate is catering to both sides of the spectrum, adding characters that are indeed more "relevant" (Inkling, Isabelle) but also those who are deemed "irrelevant" (K. Rool, with the possibility of others like Geno, Isaac, etc.). I feel like relevancy is not really something worth debating anymore.

 

[Potato_]

Ridley was much more an underdog given how Sakurai BTFO'd him from consideration very much up until his inclusion, really.

Geno, on the contrary, has been lathered with nothing but positivity from Sakurai, Mii Costume, the whole shebang.

Ridley def has fan demand and a solid spot on the Metroid roster of characters as benefits, whereas Geno has been dead for 22 years. Therefore I'd conclude that Ridley was much more of an underdog than Geno is now, as you should be weighting director comments much heavier then mere relevance. Doesn't matter if a character is the most relevant to their franchise if Sakurai can't envision a moveset/doesn't want them in.

I think the Square factor immediately makes Geno even more of an underdog, considering they'd have to deal with them if they want him in.

Geno's a side character from one game 20 or so years ago. Try selling that one to Square and they'd most likely point you to Sora or the like. Someone they can actually market to the public in a big way. I'm not saying that they wouldn't let Sakurai use him at all, but there'd no doubt be a lot more discussions that come along with it. Of course Square would love to make profit off of a character they're not using at all, but they have more to gain from including a bigger name.

Sure Sakurai likes him. But it's not just Sakurai's word, it's Square's and Nintendo's. There's a lot more moving parts to it than just "oh the fans really want it and they keep asking about him so we'll do it" like with Ridley.

Oh, and the Mii Costume thing. Notice how we got that along with Cloud and the Chocobo stuff? I have no doubt Square were fine with Nintendo using Geno's likeness after they already agreed on Cloud. Sort of a "you scratch my back I scratch yours" kinda deal.

 

[Luigi The President]

I always found the argument of "why would Square want to promote Geno over someone else" to be very strange. It'd be Nintendo asking Square to use Geno, not Square offering a character to Nintendo. Besides, the same could be said for the mii costume. "Why would Square give Nintendo the rights to use Geno instead of someone like Tifa".

I'm not really expecting Geno, but copyright seem like a really silly reason to shoot him down at this point.

Y'know. The Mii costume point is big brain.
Why WOULD they...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I always found the argument of "why would Square want to promote Geno over someone else" to be very strange. It'd be Nintendo asking Square to use Geno, not Square offering a character to Nintendo. Besides, the same could be said for the mii costume. "Why would Square give Nintendo the rights to use Geno instead of someone like Tifa".

I'm not really expecting Geno, but copyright seem like a really silly reason to shoot him down at this point.

To be perfectly fair.

Many companies charge different prices for things that references other characters and direct appearances of that character.

 

[Luigi The President]

To be perfectly fair.

Many companies charge different prices for things that references other characters and direct appearances of that character.

Would the splash screen going "HEY IT'S GENO" not kinda...imply it to be a direct appearance?
Who am I kidding this is stupid and doesn't really hold up
But I feel it's a valid point regardless (the one Zach made)

 

[AugustusB]

Note to self: If I want to rile people up, mention relevancy.

Won't do that again. Lol

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Would the splash screen going "HEY IT'S GENO" not kinda...imply it to be a direct appearance?

Sure but the thing is...

It isn't Geno. It's still a Mii.

It's how some shows can get around blatantly referencing things like Mickey Mouse or Star Wars without paying a cent, but if they show the character, they need to pay.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I always found the argument of "why would Square want to promote Geno over someone else" to be very strange. It'd be Nintendo asking Square to use Geno, not Square offering a character to Nintendo. Besides, the same could be said for the mii costume. "Why would Square give Nintendo the rights to use Geno instead of someone like Tifa".

I'm not really expecting Geno, but copyright seem like a really silly reason to shoot him down at this point.

I believe it's just some taking it out of context situation regarding the reaction of ... Nomura, was it? When Sakurai asked for Cloud instead of a FFXV rep.

Promotional representation is a thing. Just look at "Donte" in PSASBR. Doesn't mean it's always the case. Megaman is proof of that.

In the end, it all boils down to whoever approaches who to ask for X character in Smash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Anyways all I'll just say is I'm just grateful my boi is in which combined with his inclusion and popularity may lead to him returning in future DK games.

 

[NineS]

I can't tell if we're arguing for Geno's inclusion or against it...

This has become a jumbled mess seemingly fueled by bias, and I'm guilty of bias too.

 

[CosmicQuark]

See you have very valid and very good points except one's a Microsoft character and one isn't
I feel this singlehandedly places Geno above Banjo in likeliness

If Steve's in though that changes everything of course

Except, if we agree Verge's rumors are credible and likely (always possible we don't, so if so, that's a difference), then Microsoft is involved in some form and unless they came in late in the game, I would imagine a character would be a part of the deal (always possible it's not, but it's how I feel about it). Talking to a rival is a big deal, and I feel like what makes the most sense for Nintendo to go to Microsoft is if Sakurai saw Banjo's popularity in 2015 and began talks. I just can't see any other big impetus to go to Microsoft, of all companies, out of the blue. Of course they can, and that always has to be a possibility. But it's why I feel like Banjo & Kazooie are much more likely than people expect, but still a long shot.

Also to the point about likeliness--in terms of likeliness, Geno is in the 90% range, whereas Banjo's hovering over 50% (as shown in my sig). When talking about Geno, I wasn't talking about likelihoods, more what I feel sounds right when comparing the two. Ultimately, I want them both in, because I just feel like Ridley, King K Rool, Geno and Banjo & Kazooie go back such a long ways together.

EDIT:

I can't tell if we're arguing for Geno's inclusion or against it...

This has become a jumbled mess seemingly fueled by bias, and I'm guilty of bias too.

My post probably didn't make the most sense (because I was saying a lot at once... as usual). I'd argue for Geno's inclusion, but if I was forced to choose between him and Banjo, even trying to put my biases aside, I'd personally choose the latter given my reasons stated. Of course, I don't want to have to make that choice, as I want both in.

 

[Potato_]

I can't tell if we're arguing for Geno's inclusion or against it...

This has become a jumbled mess seemingly fueled by bias, and I'm guilty of bias too.

As a dude with literally no attachment to Geno, the only thing I'm saying is that his inclusion would no doubt be the nuttiest thing in Smash.

The fans literally got a one-off, relatively unknown to the general public, third party character from 20 years ago into the game.

There's basically no limitations if that happens. (Well besides the "game" rule).

 

[Momotsuki]

Anyways I don't want to continue with this relevancy debate. Nothing good ever comes out of it and I don't want to get riled up and seeming like a condescending jerk which happened once...

Hey, you ain't as bad as that pillock who was touting their predictions as total fact and putting down anybody who had other predictions or called them out on their snobbiness.

 

[Idon]

I can't tell if we're arguing for Geno's inclusion or against it...

This has become a jumbled mess seemingly fueled by bias, and I'm guilty of bias too.

Personally, I don't care either way if Geno makes it in or not. I've never beaten SMRPG fully, but I know that he has a lot of dedicated fans, and that his inclusion would make them happy.

I'm just stating why I'd doubt his chances as a playable Smash character.

Plus I'm super bored, and it's good conversation.

 

[Radical Bones]

I've always seen Retro characters in Smash as one or two off characters with NES origins, like Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, Pit and ROB.

K.Rool doesn't fit the bill, and neither does Simon.

I want Excitebiker, Mach Rider or Balloon Fighter gosh darnit.

 

[NineS]

There will come a point where we're going to end up arguing the likelihood of Agumon in this thread yet again seeing the route we're going down.

We might even argue the chances of a character like, uh, Popuko.

By the way, if anime characters ever get in Smash, this is the one I want.

 

[Momotsuki]

There will come a point where we're going to end up arguing the likelihood of Agumon in this thread yet again seeing the route we're going down.

We might even argue the chances of a character like, uh, Popuko.

By the way, if anime characters ever get in Smash, this is the one I want.

I've said the same thing forever ago on a Discord server. If there's ever a non-game character in Smash (heaven forbid) it needs to be Popuko.

 

[Locuan]

When the fella who's been around since 2005 wants Geno you know he's had some constant presence
(and B-K. Love you bear and bird)

Haha yea. I grew up with Bear and Bird. And funny story with SMRPG. As a kid I rented the game but since I had never played RPG's before I had no idea how to play them and gave up since mechanics didn't make sense. It wasn't until early last year that I played the game and it quickly became one of my favorites.