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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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SonicMario

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For me, each of the Smash games are better then the last for one reason or another. While I get the criticism of the rather lackluster single player mode. I do enjoy how Smash 4 definitely focused alot on adding a whole lot of characters and diverse movesets. The focus was definitely on the characters and main Smash mode even if that costed less in almost everything else. But I do like all Smash games alot.
 
D

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To be honest, I pretty much love Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. I like all three, and Ultimate's not even out yet, and already it's my favorite. There is no such thing a perfect series, but Smash is closest thing I think we'll get to one.
I don't dislike any of the Smash games either. Like most Nintendo franchises, there isn't really one I can think of that's outright bad. There are ones I feel are better than others, but that's just my opinion and personal preferences talking. None of the Smash games are anywhere near being objectively bad. Each one has it's faults, yes, but they also all have incredible strengths.

How I'd probably rank them is this:

Smash 64
Smash Wii U
Melee
Smash 3DS
Brawl

Honestly, I really think Ultimate has a real shot at becoming my new favorite after it launches. Every character in the series returning along with some of my own dream picks getting in, plus the potential that there may be a singleplayer again? Yes please!
 

Guh-Huzzah!

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I'm actually playing it on my Switch, and my god. That game is actual fire, and for an NES game? That's insane. 3's even better than Super Mario Bros. 2!
i am joking of course because Super Mario Bros. 2 will always be GOTY every year
I played. Mario Bros. 3 and I thought it was boring. I wanna think it’s fun. But I can’t bring myself too. I’ve been spoiled by these new HD graphics and crud.
 

Dee Dude

“Never ask Dee for anything again”
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I still find it odd that Sakurai hasn’t mentioned the Vault yet, maybe they’re doing something different from trophies?
 

Potato_

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Honestly every Smash game has something worthwhile that sets it apart from the others:

Melee: Core mechanics and gameplay feeling the slickest in the series. For many it's the gold standard for what a Smash game should feel like to play.

Brawl: Single Player content, much more complete as a "game" with various modes. For the first time in Smash not only did you have comprehensive multiplayer, but you had a full fledged STORY MODE which was insane at the time.

Smash 4: The characters and expanded possibilities due to the larger amount of third parties. Changed the series from a celebration of Nintendo to a celebration of gaming.

Ultimate looks like it's taking the best of all three however, which is what makes it so exciting. Making a compromise to try and get the gameplay closer to Melee without alienating the casual base, Spirits mode potentially being another story type of mode, and even more crazy characters and worlds with the addition of Monster Hunter, Castlevania, and the various extra content existing third parties got.

(also yeah I forgot 64 but I haven't played it nearly as much as the other 3 so I don't feel qualified to speak on it. If I had to give it something however, I guess it'd be the feeling it gives? Like it feels much cozier than every other game, might just be the nostalgia speaking but the sound effects, models and music all give this feeling for me.)
 
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CannonStreak

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I need to try those games. They're on Steam right?

Plot holes has become a meaningless term at this point tbh.

I agree. Sonic Forces as decent.

Better than Unleashed, Lost World, Heroes and 06
Forces was decent, alright. It was a good enough game. But to me, Unleashed was way better, even with the nighttime stages, which were not bad. The daytime stages, though, had that reflex based gameplay with its speed, which was so fun.
 
D

Deleted member

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And I unironically like 64. Seriously though, its feel is unique compared to what followed afterwards. Every character there looked like they would fit in Mario 64, or were pulled out of N64 games.
> "Every character there looked like they would fit in Mario 64, or were pulled out of N64 games."
> looks at Ness
> remembers EarthBound 64 (Mother 3)

yOgCizM.png


WHY DID YOU **** UP WITH THE DISK DRIVE, NINTENDO WHY
 

staindgrey

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(also yeah I forgot 64 but I haven't played it nearly as much as the other 3 so I don't feel qualified to speak on it.)
Smash 64 was just the first. That's all. There's nothing it inherently does better than any of its sequels. Many games from the 32-/64-bit era are looked back on fondly but really don't hold up to the test of time when compared to what came after them.
 

CosmicQuark

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Trying to discuss something different. I had a shower thought, trying to imagine what the current Smash roster would look like if Microsoft never bought Rareware. Off the top of my head, we would probably have:
-Banjo-Kazooie obviously
-Gruntilda
-Conker
-Rash, Zitz and Pimple
-Jago
-Glacius
-Spinal
-Riptor (for Yoshi v Riptor)
-Joanna Dark
-Junno
-Maybe a Viva Piñata character if that game would have been made anyway.

I feel like if Rare stayed with Nintendo, it would be like a Pokemon thing where each game had a different character.

Melee: Banjo & Kazooie
Brawl: Joanna Dark
4: Conker
Ultimate: Gruntilda

What a wonderful part of the wave function that universe would have been. *sigh* That being said, if Banjo & Kazooie are in Ultimate, it'll have been worth the wait and they would hold a special place being third party Nintendo All-Stars making up for the decades-long mistakes of Microsoft/Rare.
 

WolfCypher

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Well, Ultimate, for one. Someone else said it before, but the game introduced and removed a lot of stuff that sometimes shouldn't have. Comparing Brawl's stage builder to Smash 4's, you can easily see where some faults lie, a lot of questionable choices for the stage roster - I'm mainly looking at it from what did these games have to bring to the table and what they've done for the franchise, and Smash Wii U really didn't do a good job.
I should have known I wouldn't have liked Smash 4 as much as either Melee or Brawl before the game even came out. I remember when the game's very 1st E3 trailer dropped, and the only new characters revealed in its 1st trailer was Villager, Mega Man, and Wii Fit Girl? Really? Compared the Melee's debut trailer showing Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Bowser and Peacher, and Brawl's debut trailer showing Meta Knight, and critically revamped Pit, Zero Suit Samus (who was also used to tease super moves for Smash with Samus' Zero Laser), and Wario, then SNAKE of all people, three newcomers for 4's debut felt wimpy, especially when two of them were just Villager and Wii Fit Girl. Even Mega Man seemed meh compared to the Thunder Snake's surprise confirmation for Brawl brought. You just couldn't top that (IMO, even Sonic's confirmation for Brawl couldn;t hold up to Snake...Sonic people could have wrapped their minds around. Sonic, people fantasied being in SSB...who on Earth would have ever predicted or imagined Solid Snake in a SSB at that time???)

None of the reveals that came later really triggered my excitement for 4. The only time I finally felt legit hype was when the 50 Smash Facts ended revealing Greninja was playable. There were multiple times Melee's pre-release news excited me, same with Brawl. Hell, even following Smash 4's blog post were boring. They were usually just singles pics; coming from Brawl, where Sakurai would fill an entire page discussing how something as small as the Maxim Tomato worked, it was huge drop down. And finally, when that infamous ESRB Roster leak happened, it was official; this was not going to blow me away the way the second and third installments did.

All this before I even played the game. I recognized it wasn't a bad game, just every single aspect about 4 felt inferior to Melee and Brawl, and I had to even roll with it or drop the game.
 

Mariomaniac45213

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Can you explain how its aged poorly? I'm not trying to trigger a debate (since Smash 4 is my least fave, I'm not defending it). Its just I quit Smash 4 barely a year into its release, so as far as I'm concern, it wasn't for me from the get-go. So what else made the game objectively worse over time? I abandoned it too soon to know how it didn't hold up with age.
While I certainly don't speak for him. I don't think Smash 4 is bad it's just REALLY bland. My problems with the game lie with:

- The newcomer roster was TOO much of an advertising campaign to me. Even besides that for a gamer like me who can't stand JRPG's or 3rd party characters in Smash well I was **** out of luck with newcomers. Here's Robin, Lucina, Shulk, Cloud, Greninja, Corrin, Lucas, Mega Man, Bayonetta, Ryu, Pac-Man, ugh. The only characters I personally cared for were Bowser Jr., Villager, and Little Mac (probably my fave of the group). Rosalina I was "meh" about. Wii Fit Trainer, Dark Pit, Palutena, and Duck Hunt (since becoming a main of mine) I was extremely indifferent to.

- Most of the new stages in Wii U were either bland (Mario Circuit Kart 8, Wii Fit Studio, NSMBU stage, Pyrosphere) or just plain bad (Pac-Land, Great Cave Offensive, Orbital Gate, Windy Hill). They are my least favorite stages in Smash history.

- Smash Tour sucks.

-Lackluster single player options and trophy rush, target smash were VERY mediocre

- Custom moves are a chore to collect and aren't even that fun to use no one used them.

-Lot of the new items were OP as hell

- Classic Mode was terrible in this game.

- Bayonetta and Cloud both broke Smash essentially making the game "pay to win"

- Most of the music remixes were pretty forgettable

- Online was subpar in matches that aren't 1v1's

Plus many more. Smash 4 is my least favorite Smash game if I'm being honest.
 

WolfCypher

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I feel like if Rare stayed with Nintendo, it would be like a Pokemon thing where each game had a different character.

Melee: Banjo & Kazooie
Brawl: Joanna Dark
4: Conker
Ultimate: Gruntilda

What a wonderful part of the wave function that universe would have been. *sigh* That being said, if Banjo & Kazooie are in Ultimate, it'll have been worth the wait and they would hold a special place being third party Nintendo All-Stars making up for the decades-long mistakes of Microsoft/Rare.
I feel like, in this wonderful world where Nintendo bought Rare, by the time Ultimate was in development, Rare would have had newer franchises for Nintendo to pick a newcomer besides just more Banjo-Kazooie. By this time, a Nintendo-owned Rare could have come out with any hypothetical new IP that could have given us a Ultimate rep.
 

TheCJBrine

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The Mother series also went through a very tough development cycle each game.

The same is happening with the Mother 4 fangame which is gonna get rebranded and lose Mr. Saturn :crying:
 
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PsySmasher

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My first Nintendo game was actually Super Mario Galaxy. It took me almost 2 years to complete the first level, because I though I would actually get electrocuted when Mario walked into the electric fence. :nervous: Thankfully that wasn't the case. I ended up completing the game a couple months month later along with Galaxy 2.

Brawl was actually the second Nintendo game I ever played.

For handheld, my first game was Pokémon SoulSilver, but that was like in 2011.
 

amazonevan19

Smash Ace
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Messages
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I guess so. December never seemed so far away...

So, if you were to change some characters moveset, who's moveset would you change and how would you change it?
late reply but I'd change back Wario's side smash to the Brawl shoulder bash. It was so much better than the giant fist :(
 

ZoroCarlos

Smash Lord
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I feel like if Rare stayed with Nintendo, it would be like a Pokemon thing where each game had a different character.

Melee: Banjo & Kazooie
Brawl: Joanna Dark
4: Conker
Ultimate: Gruntilda

What a wonderful part of the wave function that universe would have been. *sigh* That being said, if Banjo & Kazooie are in Ultimate, it'll have been worth the wait and they would hold a special place being third party Nintendo All-Stars making up for the decades-long mistakes of Microsoft/Rare.
Gruntilda would be like how Ridley and K. Rool are nowadays lol. "We need more villain reps, Sakurai plz"
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Fixed. When the man feels like writing a story, he completes it, so he musn't be pestered about it.
The 9-year wait was definitely worth it, IMO. The fact that there's an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to the development of Mother 3 says a LOT. The man deserves the vacation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Mother_3

I should have known I wouldn't have liked Smash 4 as much as either Melee or Brawl before the game even came out. I remember when the game's very 1st E3 trailer dropped, and the only new characters revealed in its 1st trailer was Villager, Mega Man, and Wii Fit Girl? Really? Compared the Melee's debut trailer showing Zelda, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Bowser and Peacher, and Brawl's debut trailer showing Meta Knight, and critically revamped Pit, Zero Suit Samus (who was also used to tease super moves for Smash with Samus' Zero Laser), and Wario, then SNAKE of all people, three newcomers for 4's debut felt wimpy, especially when two of them were just Villager and Wii Fit Girl. Even Mega Man seemed meh compared to the Thunder Snake's surprise confirmation for Brawl brought. You just couldn't top that (IMO, even Sonic's confirmation for Brawl couldn;t hold up to Snake...Sonic people could have wrapped their minds around. Sonic, people fantasied being in SSB...who on Earth would have ever predicted or imagined Solid Snake in a SSB at that time???)

None of the reveals that came later really triggered my excitement for 4. The only time I finally felt legit hype was when the 50 Smash Facts ended revealing Greninja was playable. There were multiple times Melee's pre-release news excited me, same with Brawl. Hell, even following Smash 4's blog post were boring. They were usually just singles pics; coming from Brawl, where Sakurai would fill an entire page discussing how something as small as the Maxim Tomato worked, it was huge drop down. And finally, when that infamous ESRB Roster leak happened, it was official; this was not going to blow me away the way the second and third installments did.

All this before I even played the game. I recognized it wasn't a bad game, just every single aspect about 4 felt inferior to Melee and Brawl, and I had to even roll with it or drop the game.
Can definitely agree with you there on a lot of those points, though Little Mac was hella hype, considering how GODLIKE his Wii reboot was.
 

CosmicQuark

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I feel like, in this wonderful world where Nintendo bought Rare, by the time Ultimate was in development, Rare would have had newer franchises for Nintendo to pick a newcomer besides just more Banjo-Kazooie. By this time, a Nintendo-owned Rare could have come out with any hypothetical new IP that could have given us a Ultimate rep.
Indeed, it's very difficult to predict what would have happen in the interim, as it's essentially alternative history (existing perhaps in another universe). If I would have to guess, I would think Conker would have been replaced in 4 with a hypothetical new Rare IP. Joanna Dark makes sense for Brawl given it's a more grittier take, and Gruntila makes sense for Ultimate being a slightly requested villain (who would have perhaps been more requested if she remained a Nintendo character).
 

Cyn

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I agree. SMB3 is not that great. I'm not sorry, I just don't get its legacy outside of the McDonald toys and The Wizard promotion. I played it 2-3 years ago and found it blegh...

God, so many posts worth replying to, I can't keep up.
Maybe not by today's standards, but if you look at the rest of the games during that time period, it was pretty amazing for an NES game.
 

Michael the Spikester

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If Rare was never bought by Microsoft there's a good chance Banjo and Conker would had became recurring characters in the Donkey Kong franchise and we'd already have Banjo in Smash at this point due to Sakurai having planned him for Melee but by that time Microsoft bought him out.
 

WolfCypher

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While I certainly don't speak for him. I don't think Smash 4 is bad it's just REALLY bland. My problems with the game lie with:

- The newcomer roster was TOO much of an advertising campaign to me. Even besides that for a gamer like me who can't stand JRPG's or 3rd party characters in Smash well I was **** out of luck with newcomers. Here's Robin, Lucina, Shulk, Cloud, Greninja, Corrin, Lucas, Mega Man, Bayonetta, Ryu, Pac-Man, ugh. The only characters I personally cared for were Bowser Jr., Villager, and Little Mac (probably my fave of the group). Rosalina I was "meh" about. Wii Fit Trainer, Dark Pit, Palutena, and Duck Hunt (since becoming a main of mine) I was extremely indifferent to.

- Most of the new stages in Wii U were either bland (Mario Circuit Kart 8, Wii Fit Studio, NSMBU stage, Pyrosphere) or just plain bad (Pac-Land, Great Cave Offensive, Orbital Gate, Windy Hill). They are my least favorite stages in Smash history.

- Smash Tour sucks.

-Lackluster single player options and trophy rush, target smash were VERY mediocre

- Custom moves are a chore to collect and aren't even that fun to use no one used them.

-Lot of the new items were OP as hell

- Classic Mode was terrible in this game.

- Bayonetta and Cloud both broke Smash essentially making the game "pay to win"

- Most of the music remixes were pretty forgettable

- Online was subpar in matches that aren't 1v1's

Plus many more. Smash 4 is my least favorite Smash game if I'm being honest.
Smash 4 made me hate All-Stars mode for the 1st time ever, as well as 8-player Smash.
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Can definitely agree with you there on a lot of those points, though Little Mac was hella hype, considering how GODLIKE his Wii reboot was.
I see that you're also a man of culture as well, his reveal was among the most exciting parts of 4 for me.

late reply but I'd change back Wario's side smash to the Brawl shoulder bash. It was so much better than the giant fist :(
On the bright side, the shoulder bash is his running attack now.

The Mother series also went through a very tough development cycle each game.

The same is happening with the Mother 4 fangame which is gonna get rebranded and lose Mr. Saturn :crying:
And that's IF it lasts long enough without the staff throttling each other and dropping the project.

Praying that it does, Leo is too good for this world.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Super Mario Bros 3 is still great what the ****. Super Mario games have a tendency to age really well due to being simple platformers and the only one who I'd call outdated is the original one.
We don't talk about Mario Land though.
 

TheCJBrine

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The 9-year wait was definitely worth it, IMO. The fact that there's an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to the development of Mother 3 says a LOT. The man deserves the vacation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_Mother_3
"A North American version was announced as EarthBound 64"

C'mon, Reggie!

And that's IF it lasts long enough without the staff throttling each other and dropping the project.

Praying that it does, Leo is too good for this world.
Dang, I didn't know it was going that bad :(
 
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Cyn

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First game I ever played was SMB/DH. I was born in '91, but my brother still had an NES with all his old games. My second and third game were The Adventures of Lolo and Metroid. I'm looking forward to December when Lolo releases for the NES Switch thing.
 

ZoroCarlos

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Indeed, it's very difficult to predict what would have happen in the interim, as it's essentially alternative history (existing perhaps in another universe). If I would have to guess, I would think Conker would have been replaced in 4 with a hypothetical new Rare IP. Joanna Dark makes sense for Brawl given it's a more grittier take, and Gruntila makes sense for Ultimate being a slightly requested villain (who would have perhaps been more requested if she remained a Nintendo character).
I want to say Brawl would have also included a Killer Instinct character. Jago or Fulgore. It is a fighting game after all, I think their inclusion would have been just a matter of time.
 

amazonevan19

Smash Ace
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True it's nice that shoulder bash is the dash (hehe it rhymes) and is back at all really. I'll just have to get used to it should I main Wario again. There's so many characters I want to try that it'll be tough narrowing things down to only one or two mains I really want to focus on.

Yeah I know about multi maining but I am a firm believer in choosing one main and then having some secondaries for specific matchups. You do you, dual, triple, over 9000 mainers though :)
 
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Gyrom8

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My first Nintendo game was Super Mario Bros 3

That's how old I am
Super Mario Bros 3 was one of my first Nintendo games too ... well, the gba version was.

I think Pokemon Yellow and Gold were technically my first Ninty games, but as a dumb sprog I could never figure out how to get past Brock with Pikachu, so I've got a lot more attachment to Gold.
 

Iko MattOrr

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Super Mario Bros 3 is still great what the ****. Super Mario games have a tendency to age really well due to being simple platformers and the only one who I'd call outdated is the original one.
We don't talk about Mario Land though.
Super Mario Land 2 is awesome, the only problems are that it has occasional slowdowns/frame drops and the level design is a bit too simple in some levels. Other than that, it's a very memorable and underrated Mario game.

Mario Land 1 though, that's a completely different thing IMO
 
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