Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

But at the same time, His Fanbase is Atrocious. They've taken him a bit too far. (have you seen what People have been sending to Sakurai on twitter just because Waluigi isn't getting in?)

This.

If people are gonna treat Sakurai like crap just for that. They don't deserve Waluigi in Smash because that isn't how you should get someone.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I thought only two people harassed Sakurai over Waluigi? Or is there another incident / are they actually sending more stuff?

Also, that's not fair to all the people who legitimately want him in, and aren't jerks.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Brawl in the Family created a version of the character I have a heavy disdain for. You know what's going on and if you don't, well, it doesn't take long to Google it. I have to skirt around this because I do want this post to be taken more seriously than an average post about Waluigi.

I feel like since Brawl in the Family, Waluigi has been seen more as a joke character. While there's nothing wrong with the concept, it's not actually Waluigi's character. It's been what it's been reduced to by the internet because of Waluigi's seeming lack of a character. What little context Waluigi had is reduced to nothing.

Tingle is obviously a joke character. Hell, the Mario series has more apparent joke characters in the RPGs and such. The problem with Waluigi is that he kind of exists in a void between nothing and being a meme, which gets tiresome real fast. There's nothing actually to him that lends itself well to be a intentional joke character now, because you still need that in-between for Luigi and Wario that he was created for. If he was supposed to be a joke Mario Bro, then as I said, he's doing a bad job at being it in the actual games he's in.

I know full well what BitF is. My point is that Waluigi has always been a joke. Yes he was created to be a tennis partner for Wario, but that doesn't mean Nintendo didn't embrace what a weirdo he was from the start. Unless you think they were trying to take him seriously when they placed an upside down "L" on his hat.

Even with BitF, I don't think he ever would have taken off as a meme unless people already thought he was funny to begin with. Unlike Shrek, a lot of Waluigi memes come from genuine affection for the character. Heck, BitF's artist himself even wanted Waluigi in Smash.

On one hand, Yeah, I'll admit we're a little hard on him.
But at the same time, His Fanbase is Atrocious. They've taken him a bit too far. (have you seen what People have been sending to Sakurai on twitter just because Waluigi isn't getting in?)

This.

If people are gonna treat Sakurai like crap just for that. They don't deserve Waluigi in Smash because that isn't how you should get someone.

You're judging a fanbase only for its worst parts here. Most Waluigi fans were outspokenly opposed to harrassing Sakurai.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

So, I was thinking, What would it be like if Ultimate had a season pass with micro-transactions & unwanted DLC characters that go up to $20....

The community will explode into a napalm filled with rage.

Cloud, King K. Rool, & Captain Falcon- The fans
Bomberman- Corrupt gaming companies (EA, Activision, WB, etc etc.)

 

[PlasmaDam]

On one hand, Yeah, I'll admit we'll a little hard on him.
But at the same time, His Fanbase is Atrocious. They've taken him a bit too far. (have you seen what People have been sending to Sakurai on twitter just because Waluigi isn't getting in?)

I Admit the Waluigi fanbase is horrible at times but not all Waluigi fans are like that let the Waluigi fans dream that he will be in game just let them be

 

[Arcadenik]

I made these. It’s how I envision Team Rocket as a playable fighter.

Team Rocket members Jessie and James are Pokemon Trainers so it would make sense for them to stay in the background like Red and Leaf.

In all their video game appearances, Team Rocket always have Meowth, Arbok, and Weezing with them so that’s why I feel that it is fitting that they are Team Rocket’s Pokemon in Smash.

Meowth is the main Pokémon because he’s the only Pokémon that’s still with Team Rocket since day one. Meowth also provides the limbs that Arbok and Weezing lack. Meowth and Poison Type Pokemon teams could be very unique and I believe it’s not as complicated as it sounds. Arbok and Weezing would have simple models like Luma due to their simple body shapes. In addition to Meowth’s claws and coins, Meowth would have Arbok and Weezing support him in different ways. Arbok could be inspired by Snake Style Kung Fu. Weezing could be a disjointed hit box that poisons the environment.

It also would be nice to finally have a Pokémon villain... and I feel the Team Rocket trio are the most iconic of all Pokémon villains.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Tell that to the Koopalings.

That's waaaaaaaay different. They're all in the clown car, which is the majority of their hit box, and inside the car they were shrunken down to match Bowser Jr.

Bearded Isaac is a grown ass man about the size of Snake. Isaac is about the size of Young Link, Ness, Lucas, y'know he's basically a kid. Could you imagine Young Link with a beard? It'd be ****ing weird because it's a beard on a kid.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

That's waaaaaaaay different. They're all in the clown car, which is the majority of their hit box, and inside the car they were shrunken down to match Bowser Jr.

Bearded Isaac is a grown *** man about the size of Snake. Isaac is about the size of Young Link, Ness, Lucas, y'know he's basically a kid. Could you imagine Young Link with a beard? It'd be ****ing weird because it's a beard on a kid.

Yet Roy, Ludwig and Morton are a big bigger then Jr. and Lemmy much smaller then him.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, that could actually work and is a way of having Waluigi as a playable character without having to scrap the Assist Trophy.

But through this logic, we could've kept the Isabelle, Dark Samus and Little Mac Assist Trophies when they became playable characters in the subsequent games. I mean, why not? These Assist Trophies still had something unique about them that isn't in the games anymore, after all.

Just so I'm clear, I'd love to be wrong if Waluigi did make it into the game as DLC without having to compromise his Assist Trophy role. He simply wouldn't appear when someone was playing as him.

It's just that the way playable characters and Assist Trophies have been handled thus far, I'm not convinced that this idea could happen. I don't mean to come across as negative, just trying to view things as realistically as possible based on what's known about the Smash series, its history and statements from Sakurai himself.

I agree. But it's one thing to say "Let's update and port over this assist trophy even though we know they are playable in the base game" and another to tweak the status quo via DLC.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I thought only two people harassed Sakurai over Waluigi? Or is there another incident / are they actually sending more stuff?

Also, that's not fair to all the people who legitimately want him in, and aren't jerks.

I guess. But even the Non jerks made kind of a big deal out of it. They acted like someone died... It got so out of hand that Even Netflix and The Washington Post talked about the matter...
Honestly, they probably just mad because Daisy got in, but idk

 

[PlasmaDam]

The Waluigi fanbase can be very annoying at times so it's understandable for your hate for Waluigi just remember than not all Waluigi fans are assholes

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So, I was thinking, What would it be like if Ultimate had a season pass with micro-transactions & unwanted DLC characters that go up to $20....

View attachment 166105
The community will explode into a napalm filled with rage.

Cloud, King K. Rool, & Captain Falcon- The fans
Bomberman- Corrupt gaming companies (EA, Activision, WB, etc etc.)

You know, seeing 'unwanted' reminds me of how Smash fans go "ugh, who even WANTED or LIKED *insert a popular character who got in Smash*? Should have been Obscure Character Literally 5 People Remember, EVERYONE loves that guy!"

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Honestly, they probably just mad because Daisy got in, but idk

Which reminds me. This bit is hilarious especially the end.

 

[pupNapoleon]

OK sure but that just seems like so much effort to go through to accomplish a goal that could be done equally as effectively by just making a reveal trailer.

Heck they even had a Waluigi AT in he E3 demo. That had to require some time and resources. Why would they deliberately let that go to waste? Even for a supposed "surprise reveal"? It just seems so impractical.

If we were talking DLC and he was made playable because of mass fan demand? Fine. Sure. Whatever. Heck, I might even say it's more possible than people are giving it credit for. But that still leaves his existing AT; we haven't seen a situation like this before so we don't know how it'll go down, so I have my doubts we'll see it happen.

Why is a pretty open ended question. I could come up with a dozen reasons and still be completely off.
Sakurai likes a surprise and this definitely would make Waluigi a much bigger surprise. And maybe he loves the tennis AT of him as well.

Who knows. I'm not in the 'likely' camp of this idea, but I do think it is possible for him to make it base game.
I am really hoping for Captain Toad, though.

 

[Idon]

I feel like that accurately describes 99% of all JRPG characters.

I'd say Final Fantasy in particular is uhh

Particularly guilty of this.

 

[pupNapoleon]

ah yes good ole smashboards that cant tell the difference between an announcement trailer and character reveal trailers even tho we've had them since brawl. inking reveal was like snake brawl reveal. no gameplay just character confirmation and game announcement. every character reveal trailer has a pattern 1. skit (takes a variety of forms cg animation, in game skit, or source game skit) 2. character pun or reference flashes on screen 3. gameplay

I sense you are angry.
That does not make your point correct.
The Inkling trailer was still a reveal trailer.
Or are you one of those people who likes to make up smash terminology to justify your point?
If not, please direct me to the official Smash Bros definitions you think you are educating me upon.

 

[Moydow]

View attachment 166103

It's from the game no one likes, and that's a shame, because I'd only care about Isaac if he had this design.

I generally don't like beards, but bearded Isaac is one of like three exceptions to the rule.

I wouldn't say I disliked Dark Dawn, just that it had a lot to live up to, and in most areas it didn't quite match the GBA games. It's still a pretty decent game in its own right, though.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I mean daisy is an echo so Waluigi fans shouldn't be mad

 

[Icedragonadam]

So is it safe to say that this is the gloomy Smash 4 Post E3 to Robin/Lucina bombshell period of Smash Ultimate?

Also since it's my birthday, I hope there's some sort of Pac-Man or Robin/Lucina reveal next week.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

I'd say Final Fantasy in particular is uhh
View attachment 166107
Particularly guilty of this.

What the hell am i looking at?

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'd say Final Fantasy in particular is uhh
View attachment 166107
Particularly guilty of this.

What the hell is this? Why is his there a chain on his sword that just connects to his sword? What impractical heels! This is a blasphemous design. I would actively not play this game if I had to look at this thing.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yet Roy, Ludwig and Morton are a big bigger then Jr. and Lemmy much smaller then him.

I think the main reason they're able to do that is because most of the fighting is done by the clown cart rather then the koopa kids themselves. Up-B and Uair are the only moves where their actual skeletons might be important.

 

[PlasmaDam]

It was funny when Isabelle was unique and Daisy fans were mad or salty saying she should have been an echo if daisy was one

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Yet Roy, Ludwig and Morton are a big bigger then Jr. and Lemmy much smaller then him.

Yet, their hitbox are all the same. Your comparing apples to oranges here dude.

THIS is Dark Dawn Isaac:

This is regular Isaac:

Much harder to scale them together than it is these:

They're all generally around the same proportions. And it's even easier since they're in a clown car.

 

[NintenZ]

So it's been 24 hours and no leaks whatsoever, looks like it's safe for me to come back.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It was funny when Isabelle was unique and Daisy fans were mad or salty saying she should have been an echo if daisy was one

You say that yet it's funnier memoryman went from excited to pissed when we saw Chrom get a different move

 

[PlasmaDam]

It was funny when Isabelle was unique and Daisy fans were mad or salty saying she should have been an echo if daisy was one

 

[pupNapoleon]

So is your entire shtick to just try talking around people with nonsense instead of just admitting you said something misinformed? I've noticed that a lot in your posts.

No. My entire thing is that there is no definition of "late additions." I'm actively rejecting these tired notions that individual smash speculators decide upon, and then continue about to be didactic and condescending. "Late additions" is not a smash term, it is not vocabulary defined.
In fact, *that* is what I consider to be nonsense. Do I need to define nonsense, now? Unlike the point made before mine it has an actual definition.

 

[PlasmaDam]

You know what is really funny and ironic that Chrom is the most unique echo fighter for now

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

The Waluigi fanbase can be very annoying at times so it's understandable for your hate for Waluigi just remember than not all Waluigi fans are ********

When did I say I hated Waluigi? Waluigi's great.
It's just that his fan base gets a little out of hand sometimes...

 

[pupNapoleon]

They're impossible in the sense that they contradict Smash's simplicity.

I'm basically trying to even see how would they even work from a technical standpoint since you just tout ideas without thinking on how would they mesh with Smash's gameplay.

You tout about representation this and representation that, but that is irrelevant to making a game. What are the mechanics behind your ideas? How would they flow? How would they be balanced?

You don't detail on any of these questions. You just tout ideas that I can see from a mile away would be a complete mess at odds with Smash's simplicity. You're talking about representation. I'm talking about gameplay, mechanics, balancing and design.

Robin's moveset works because Sakurai was able to mesh FE mechanics with Smash gameplay, but there's thought put into it. What moves would be affected, what liberties could be taken, how could weapon durability be compensated through gameplay (i.e. the special moves are particularly powerful compared to other special moves in the game). There's flow, there's vision, there's a clear implementation.

With Robin, only Smash attacks and special moves are affected by his unique mechanic. The weapon uses getting automatically refilled is a liberty so Robin wouldn't be without weapons for the rest of the match. Robin has the extra option to use stronger aerial moves at the expense of using up his Levin Sword, therefore running the risk of having weaker Smash attacks.

In other words, the FE mechanics are implemented in a simple, efficient way and don't disrupt the gameplay.

Your Pokémon Trainer idea right from the start makes character selection itself a more convoluted process compared to the rest of the game that would be incredibly difficult to balance since you'd have to consider all potential three character combinations. It's the opposite of simplicity that Smash stands for.

I'm not doing this to be combative. I'm saying that you're not putting enough thought in your ideas and how would they work in Smash, if they would work in Smash at all in the first place.

When you suggested that Piplup and Zoroark would be echo fighters of Squirtle and Lucario, I immediately realized that you weren't putting enough thought into your ideas, just going for a "oh, this character looks similar to another, it's an echo", when that is not how things work with echoes in the first place.

i'm reading your points. So tell me. If you heard about Kirby's design, that he copies abilities from every single character, would you consider that simple? By your frame of logic, it would be a waste of time in animation, much more complicated than what I posed with Eevee.
How about on a technical level- how would you feel about a dual character, like Ice Climbers? You see now that it makes sense, but if it had not happened, it would have been easily conceived as "throwing off the balance of every character entirely."

I'm not pretending I can see the pathway to all answers, but I dont get limited from an end goal that is plausible, either. How to make something work is important, of course- that is the job of the creator. Your argument boils down to "dont make a suggestion if you cannot define exactly how it would work in the game." I fear what this forum would look like under such an exacted regime- that which is interesting would ever be stated.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

God I was a Waluigi supporter before announcement (and still am kinda), but I’m so sick of seeing discussion about him. It’s already done, he’s an Assist Trophy and that isn’t changing anytime soon. Can we talk about something else?

 

[Over9000BPM]

So it's been 24 hours and no leaks whatsoever, looks like it's safe for me to come back.

The leak talk was relocated to a dedicated thread made for that very reason I believe.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yet, their hitbox are all the same. Your comparing apples to oranges here dude.

THIS is Dark Dawn Isaac:

This is regular Isaac:

Much harder to scale them together than it is these:

They're all generally around the same proportions. And it's even easier since they're in a clown car.

I had forgotten how attractive Isaac becomes in his later stages.
If he gets in, Richter will have to move on over.

 

[PlasmaDam]

You say that yet it's funnier memoryman went from excited to pissed when we saw Chrom get a different move

What did he say im curious

 

[pupNapoleon]

The leak talk was relocated to a dedicated thread made for that very reason I believe.

Really? Leaks are half of the conversation that happens in this thread. What made the mods consider doing this now? I know I was not the first to suggest it long ago.

Cutie Gwen what is a memory man? (Thinks of method man on memory foam).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What did he say im curious

Don't know any specifics but he's mad Echoes can be a bit more unique and Daisy doesn't have that

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I had forgotten how attractive Isaac becomes in his later stages.
If he gets in, Richter will have to move on over.

I'mma need an amen. I'm ok with whichever gets in but I would love a Link/Young Link Echo situation as unlikely as that seems. To be honest Isaac is ripe for echoes. Felix, Matthew, Adult Isaac. All great choices. Plus, now that Ganondorf has de aged to Ocarina of Time Snake is the lone Beard representative. We could always use more.

Really? Leaks are half of the conversation that happens in this thread. What made the mods consider doing this now? I know I was not the first to suggest it long ago.

Cutie Gwen what is a memory man? (Thinks of method man on memory foam).

It took us so long to do it because of how bad the leak group got in For speculation. That and so far there hasn't been much of a reason for a spoiler on leaks. Most of them had been throw away text leaks and the image leaks that had popped up got either ripped apart, or the creator came out and admitted it was fake.

This new leak with a certain character and the ovefluxuation of Vergeben talk in this thread finally warranted it though.

 

[Crooked Crow]

It was funny when Isabelle was unique and Daisy fans were mad or salty saying she should have been an echo if daisy was one

Isabelle has a lot more personality than Daisy. Daisy has always been an extension of Peach.

 

[UberMadman]

Assuming that Incineroar and Ken are the final two characters, the main reason that characters like Isaac, Bandana Waddle Dee, Shadow, Dixie, Elma, Skull Kid, and the like didn’t make the roster was probably just time constraints combined with Ultimate’s “bring everything back” design philosophy. That’s it, really; it has nothing to do with the fact that these characters are “undeserving,” or anything of the sort. If Ultimate was a game more focused around new content rather than bringing back all the old content, then we probably would have seen more of these characters in the base roster. However, I think it was a worthy tradeoff because now the DLC can entirely focus on characters such as these, especially since there won’t be another Smash game on the horizon to replace this one like Ultimate did to Smash 4.

The only three characters I feel have a good chance to not make DLC if they don’t arrive in the base roster are Elma, Decidueye, and Shadow. In Elma’s case, Rex will probably be prioritized over her for DLC, though that’s not as much of a probelm if Sakurai is willing to give Xenoblade two more reps, (which I think he should.) Decidueye probably won’t have to compete with Incineroar for DLC, but Sakurai might not be willing to include two fully evolved starters from one gen, and people might get grumpy of that happens, though I certainly wouldn’t complain. Finally, if Shadow doesn’t make base roster, the best we can hope for is that his Assist Trophy truly was replaced by Knuckles so that he has a better shot of being DLC. His fate may also depend on whether or not DLC echoes will be a thing; if Sakurai only wants to make fully-fledged newcomers as DLC, then Shadow’s chances diminish more. Pretty much every other commonly speculated character has just as much of a shot making DLC as they did the base roster in my eyes, if not higher such as in the case of Bandana Waddle Dee and Banjo, (which is a separate topic of discussion.)