Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[AugustusB]

Curious, could the SE charcter be shown with the reveal of Spirits? Honestly, why haven't we asked Vergeben to look into what Spirits is? He has NOTHING on that and honestly, why doesn't he have a bit of info on it.

 

[Banjodorf]

There's always a possibility for a debunk. The SE rep doesn't necessarily need to happen to do so.

The thing that people here need to realize is that the box theory is the only guess at the final roster with tangible evidence to prove itself, but it does not guarantee anything. It's simply the best bet right now and it's hard to argue against.

It's fully possible-- but not probable-- that the box doesn't have every single character on both sides, or that the other side doesn't follow the same pattern as the side we see for some reason, but anything outside of the box theory as-is is little more than a wish until something gets confirmed to disprove it.

So yeah, maybe Geno's in. Maybe he's DLC, maybe he's not. Maybe he was a late addition and the box will change. While some are far less likely than others, all of these are possibilities.

It's just important that we, as a community and as functional adults, can discern the difference between a hypothesis based on evidence and a wish.

Functional adults in a normal community also wouldn't go back and forth for literal weeks over the reliability of something we have literally no way of proving true or false. They'd do what other places do and say "Could be, could not" and move on.

 

[Untouch]

I especially don't see Shantae getting in if the DQ11 character is Jade

I personally don't think we're getting a DQ11 character at all. Sakurai picked Cloud for a reason, there are characters way more popular.
I mean if we are getting a DQ character that is.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I think that's more or less Verge trying to make sense as to why this SE character wouldn't be on the box. There's a huge difference between saying, "It's a DLC character," and "Maybe it's not there because it's DLC?"

In other words, Verge is just as confused as we are.

I get the feeling that this is the same route that the Chairs were onto. These Big leakers believed in them and lo and behold Isabelle came out. Besides I just think we'll get a "Smash Bomb" Direct as of now.

 

[WolfCypher]

From what I heard they also kept Kratos deliberately OP and nerfed Sackboy when he was top tier alongside Kratos too

The development team, alongside Superbot, was the studio that made God of War, so its no surprise. I imagine had Naughty Dog developed this game, we'd be seeing Drake or Jak OP. Had it been Media Molecule? OP Sackboy. Had it been Japan Studio? A LOT more Japanese-developed characters (Dart from Legend of Dragoon on the base roster day one for one...)

I doubt there could have been a studio with their own franchises, who wouldn't put their character at the forefront of the roster plus make them unbalanced (for this game).

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I can't imagine a character I'd like less than vault boy.

Or less necessary. Like it's not even an actual character...

Someone made a theory compilation on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9gxtxb/the_theory_compilation/

My God.....how long has this theory been around and people still don't get the basic concept?! It lists the box theory as one more newcomer because the box only has one more spot on it's side. Like how are people still missing this?! There are two more characters. Twooooooo! Argh.

I love how the music theory picked up some credibility, yet people are still talking about this stupid box. Don't even care if it's real or not at this point. I just feel like we've completely exhausted this conversation.

Oh well. At least I can bring up the music theory without sounding like a lunatic.

That's because the music theory compliments the box theory. They can both be true. The music theory also implies not as many characters are possible as people want. So they go hand in hand.

 

[Deleted member]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

DLC echoes.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

Maybe sega didn't like him being an echo or a semi clone... So Sakurai Scrapped him at the last second...

 

[Androobie]

DLC echoes.

...would people even buy those?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

he may be a boss

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

...would people even buy those?

Pretty sure they would...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

POSSIBILITY 1: Just hasn't been shown yet
POSSIBILITY 2: Assist is cut and is just gone, like Isaac in 4

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

wouldn't this be the first smash game to only include 1 3rd party newcomer baseline instead of the standard 2. I am still going to be astonished if they skip one of the most hype character types for this roster.

And no, Clones are not newcomers, dont go telling me ken is 3rd party newcomer no 2

 

[Noipoi]

I imagine most people here are gonna spend their first moments in Ultimate playing with friends. But for those of us with friends in other states who aren't readily available, what''s the first thing you're gonna do in Ultimate?

Personally i'm gonna spend a few short matches getting reacquainted with Smash gameplay, and then i'm gonna do an 8-player Smash with each of the og 8.
As the best one of course. After that i'll probably dive headfirst into spirits mode, or however you unlock characters. The sooner I unlock the better.

 

[staindgrey]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

It's possible he's still an AT and hasn't been shown yet.
It's possible he's been planned for DLC-- and that echoes may be a way of continuing to pad the roster post-release at lower cost.
It's possible he was just cut in favor of Knuckles.

The thing is, we don't know. The lack of evidence isn't the same as evidence.

 

[Cosmic77]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

Sonic is still missing a track. If we don't get one in the following weeks, I might be bold enough to say Shadow will go the Isabelle route and get in as a unique character.

I thought it was fishy as heck when Isabelle went missing and Kapp'n randomly popped up as a new AT. Seeing how Shadow is still nowhere to be found and Knuckles randomly got added, I can't help but feel like this is all a little familiar.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

...would people even buy those?

You bet my dumbass I will.

 

[Banjodorf]

wouldn't this be the first smash game to only include 1 3rd party newcomer baseline instead of the standard 2. I am still going to be astonished if they skip one of the most hype character types for this roster.

And no, Clones are not newcomers, dont go telling me ken is 3rd party newcomer no 2

Technically Richter already was

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

For Spirits/Adventure/Subspace/Smash Run/whatever.

What new enemies do you want to see?

For me.

-Monty Moles (Mario)
-Boos (Mario)
-Moblins (Zelda)
-Snowmads (DK)
-Scarfies (Kirby)
-Pidgies (Pokemon)
-Rattatas (Pokemon)
- Anything from Earthbound
-Waterwraith (Pikmin)
-Wollywogs (Pikmin)
-E-Series (Sonic)
-Motobugs (Sonic)

- GEKKO
- Tarantula
- Lil’ UFO
- Puttid Moldyman
- Aparoid
- Brigand
- Zubat

 

[Untouch]

...would people even buy those?

They would.
That is if we even need to buy them and they aren't just tied to Nintendo Online or something.

 

[AlphaSSB]

...would people even buy those?

I think they're in the realm of possibility.

People would likely buy them if they were either included in bundles, or sold at a significantly lower price than actual newcomers.

 

[MSmariosonic]

And no, Clones are not newcomers, dont go telling me ken is 3rd party newcomer no 2

If we're counting echoes Ken would be the third 3rd party.

 

[Noipoi]

...would people even buy those?

I absotively posilutely would.

 

[Inawordyes]

So here's a thought

The Blog theory posits that, if it keeps exactly as it is now, we have 8 new characters left, right?

The box theory goes in groups of 9, but it has rows of 6. The side of the box that we do see would presumably end it's last row with whoever the non-echo newcomer is after Isabelle. With Ken presumably on the other side, that's 2/8. If another grouping were to start, it would begin on the side of the box that we can't see

So we aren't we considering the possibility that the sides are asymmetrical and the side we can't see is slightly shorter to fit in another row of 6 - which, according to the box theory, is exactly the number of characters we're missing after you take out Ken + whoever's after Isabelle?

Scrunch that side up a bit, get another row on that side, you have room for a total of 8 characters. The next row would start on that side anyways, so without being able to see if it's laid out in the same manner, it's as valid a speculation as anything else.

It allows The Verge leaks, the Blog theory, the Music theory, and the 108+ Stages rumor to coexist with the Box theory. But it rests on the sides of the box being asymmetrical.

EDIT: It also allows speculation like the mech toy = Elma playable, missing Shadow AT = Shadow echo, various thing surrounding Geno + Verge's SE character = Geno playable to coexist, and leaves open the possibility for 2 of Isaac/Skull Kid/Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong too.

If we do have 8 and it was something like:

Incineroar
Elma
Geno
Skull Kid/Bandana Dee/Isaac
Bandana Dee/Skull Kid/Isaac

Ken
Dixie Kong
Shadow

That would be perfect. Skull Kid and Bandana Dee both have things going in their favor, Isaac's just the fan darling who doesn't really have things potentially pointing as his inclusion.

I haven't seen anybody mention this possibility, so I'm bringing it up for discussion.

 

[RileyXY1]

So going by this "leak":
- Black Knight
- Black Shadow
- Dixie Kong
- Geno
- Incineroar
- Ken
- Mach Rider
- Shadow
- Steve
- Vault Boy

No way in hell we got this much left lol.

But I like making arbitrary lists.

Yeah. At most, we are only getting 8 more characters. That was determined based on calculations of the blog posts and how many fighters they need to cover after all currently confirmed fighters have been covered. This was dropped down to 7 only due to the direct delay, which resulted in a week with only 2 fighters as opposed to 3, but they can do 4 fighters in one week to make up for it. This will result in there being 17 total newcomers (counting Echoes) which is lower than Smash 4's 21. If Ken, Incineroar, and a second SE rep get in, then that leaves five more slots.

 

[staindgrey]

...would people even buy those?

Street Fighter players bought Evil Ryu and Oni Akuma with SSFIV:AE.

While they'd certainly generate less hype and anger some people (which is dumb, but whatever), you know there are plenty of people who would buy an echo either because they really like that character, or because they want the whole roster complete.

So here's a thought

The Blog theory posits that, if it keeps exactly as it is now, we have 8 new characters left, right?

The box theory goes in groups of 9, but it has rows of 6. The side of the box that we do see would presumably end it's last row with whoever the non-echo newcomer is after Isabelle. With Ken presumably on the other side, that's 2/8. If another grouping were to start, it would begin on the side of the box that we can't see

So we aren't we considering the possibility that the sides are asymmetrical and the side we can't see is slightly shorter to fit in another row of 6 - which, according to the box theory, is exactly the number of characters we're missing after you take out Ken + whoever's after Isabelle?

Scrunch that side up a bit, get another row on that side, you have room for a total of 8 characters. The next row would start on that side anyways, so without being able to see if it's laid out in the same manner, it's as valid a speculation as anything else.

It allows The Verge leaks, the Blog theory, the Music theory, and the 108+ Stages rumor to coexist with the Box theory. But it rests on the sides of the box being asymmetrical.

And as a marketer myself, that sort of design would drive me crazy and I wouldn't sign off on it if I were someone working at Nintendo.

Certainly a possibility. I just doubt it. It would require one side of the box to have very noticeably smaller character portraits when, instead, you could just reorganize them all on both sides to disperse them evenly.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So here's a thought

The Blog theory posits that, if it keeps exactly as it is now, we have 8 new characters left, right?

The box theory goes in groups of 9, but it has rows of 6. The side of the box that we do see would presumably end it's last row with whoever the non-echo newcomer is after Isabelle. With Ken presumably on the other side, that's 2/8. If another grouping were to start, it would begin on the side of the box that we can't see

So we aren't we considering the possibility that the sides are asymmetrical and the side we can't see is slightly shorter to fit in another row of 6 - which, according to the box theory, is exactly the number of characters we're missing after you take out Ken + whoever's after Isabelle?

Scrunch that side up a bit, get another row on that side, you have room for a total of 8 characters. The next row would start on that side anyways, so without being able to see if it's laid out in the same manner, it's as valid a speculation as anything else.

It allows The Verge leaks, the Blog theory, the Music theory, and the 108+ Stages rumor to coexist with the Box theory. But it rests on the sides of the box being asymmetrical.

If I had to guess who the remaining 8 were:

1. Ken
2. Incineroar
3. The mystery 2nd Square Enix rep who may or may not be Geno
4. Elma
5. Heihachi
6. Lloyd Irving
7. Dante
8. Black Shadow

Something tells me Chorus Kids may be delayed into DLC due to implementation concerns. Isaac may be DLC too

I’d put Waddle Dee in place of Dante, but the music theory doesn’t look good for him. This is all assuming Dante theory is true in addition. If not, replace Dante with someone like idk, Shadow, Celica, anyone within reason

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Sonic is still missing a track. If we don't get one in the following weeks, I might be bold enough to say Shadow will go the Isabelle route and get in as a unique character.

I thought it was fishy as heck when Isabelle went missing and Kapp'n randomly popped up as a new AT. Seeing how Shadow is still nowhere to be found and Knuckles randomly got added, I can't help but feel like this is all a little familiar.

I was talking to someone earlier and they claimed Sonic got 4 new tracks, I dunno if this was part of the sneak peek in the sound test or what.

These might be just mania/forces tracks, but iirc the only track 4 added for sonic was the original windy hill theme. Something sonic related might come, especially with all the old and new sonic composers joining in.

Could just be nothing, but the lack of sonic info I still find slightly fishy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Street Fighter players bought Evil Ryu and Oni Akuma with SSFIV:AE.

While they'd certainly generate less hype and anger some people (which is dumb, but whatever), you know there are plenty of people who would buy an echo either because they really like that character, or because they want the whole roster complete.

tbf those examples are pretty neat in terms of lore. Cause of the whole Satsui no Hadou ****. No where the **** is Evil Dan?

 

[SonicMario]

If the box theory is true, what does everyone think happened to Shadow? It seems really strange for him to just vanish from the game in any starring capacity considering he's been an AT since Brawl and is arguably the most popular Sonic character besides the titular hedgehog.

Yeah I'd say DLC echo. (Hopefully packaged with a Semi-Clone Tails though so it's even more worth paying for though)

Sonic is still missing a track. If we don't get one in the following weeks, I might be bold enough to say Shadow will go the Isabelle route and get in as a unique character.

God I hope not, if Sonic gets an Isabelle semi-clone. Why the heck not Tails? I get Shadow's probably more popular on the grand sense of things in the Sonic fanbase, but I don't think Shadow would dwarf Tails' requests to the point only Shadow can earn that spot. And it's still odd they didn't give Shadow a Mii costume when Tails and Knuckles did in this case.

If Shadow had gotten a Mii costume too, then I could see it potentially happening better. But for now it's an interesting omission I feel.

 

[Originality]

...would people even buy those?

Yes

I imagine most people here are gonna spend their first moments in Ultimate playing with friends. But for those of us with friends in other states who aren't readily available, what''s the first thing you're gonna do in Ultimate?

Personally i'm gonna spend a few short matches getting reacquainted with Smash gameplay, and then i'm gonna do an 8-player Smash with each of the og 8.
As the best one of course. After that i'll probably dive headfirst into spirits mode, or however you unlock characters. The sooner I unlock the better.

If Spirits is what we think it is, that first definitely. For the same reason as you too

 

[ToddCam]

Marvel characters I'd want most:

1. Warlock (Technarch)
2. Iceman
3. She-Hulk
4. The Thing
5. Spider-Man

Side note: C'mon people, I mean, it's one thing to constantly say "deconfirm" instead of disconfirm, but for the love of God, it's Spider-Man, not Spiderman.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I love how the music theory picked up some credibility, yet people are still talking about this stupid box. Don't even care if it's real or not at this point. I just feel like we've completely exhausted this conversation.

Oh well. At least I can bring up the music theory without sounding like a lunatic.

I personally dig the music theory. It allows for characters like Porky, Hades or a unique sonic or xenoblade character to still exist.

Best part is it can't deconfirm any new franchises or echoes so it's a pretty lax theory to like.

...would people even buy those?

Package them with uniques or something. For example, a Dr. Eggman unique and Shadow is a bonus

 

[staindgrey]

Yeah I'd say DLC echo. (Hopefully packaged with a Semi-Clone Tails though so it's even more worth paying for though)



God I hope not, if Sonic gets an Isabelle semi-clone. Why the heck not Tails? I get Shadow's probably more popular on the grand sense of things in the Sonic fanbase, but I don't think Shadow would dwarf Tails' requests to the point only Shadow can earn that spot. And it's still odd they didn't give Shadow a Mii costume when Tails and Knuckles did in this case.

If Shadow had gotten a Mii costume too, then I could see it potentially happening better. But for now it's an interesting omission I feel.

The only thing I'd say in regards to Shadow over Tails is that the game needs more villains. If Spirits mode really is what we think it is, then Shadow could work more in favor of giving us antagonists than Tails would.

Also, as far as semi-clones go, Shadow would certainly require less work than Tails. Tails isn't the same size at all and can only reuse the spin dash animation. Almost everything else would need to be reanimated from scratch.

 

[Polan]

So let me get this straight:

The box theory has evidence to derive a conclusion that, while still only a hypothesis, has a tangible reason for existing.
The SE rep, so far unnamed, is rumored by a leaker with no evidence to back up the claim.
This SE rep can't possibly be DLC, because Cloud in Smash 4 apparently didn't happen, and so it's "100% base roster".

Therefore the box theory is bull.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your argument.

well the box theory is caca mostly because it hinges on an unfinished placeholder design. and the SE rep is likely not dlc because dlc is probably barely in the planning stages, nintendo and SE probably signed on under the assumption that the character would be on the base roster and because none of vergeben's sources ever implied dlc. its just boxists trying to fit him into the theory.

 

[Chumpodile]

Marvel characters I'd want most:

1. Warlock (Technarch)
2. Iceman
3. She-Hulk
4. The Thing
5. Spider-Man

Side note: C'mon people, I mean, it's one thing to constantly say "deconfirm" instead of disconfirm, but for the love of God, it's Spider-Man, not Spiderman.

View attachment 165562

Spidered Man

 

[staindgrey]

well the box theory is caca mostly because it hinges on an unfinished placeholder design. and the SE rep is likely not dlc because dlc is probably barely in the planning stages, nintendo and SE probably signed on under the assumption that the character would be on the base roster and because none of vergeben's sources ever implied dlc. its just boxists trying to fit him into the theory.

So, only thing I'll say so that this doesn't spawn another five-page box discussion is that the "placeholder" argument needs to stop. It's too detailed, too exact and too close to the game going gold to still be considered a placeholder. You can still disbelieve the theory's conclusion, but dismissing the box itself as a placeholder is disingenuous at best, putting your fingers into your ears and going "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA" at worst.

This is placeholder box art.

This is not.


---
EDIT:

Sorry, I had to include one more thing, because your "barely in the planning stages" assertion also sounded wrong.

Mewtwo was announced by Sakurai as the first DLC in October before Smash 4 even released, showing that there had been considerable work done for the character already. Clearly that DLC had been finalized way in advance of that announcement, let alone the full game's release.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

well the box theory is caca mostly because it hinges on an unfinished placeholder design. and the SE rep is likely not dlc because dlc is probably barely in the planning stages, nintendo and SE probably signed on under the assumption that the character would be on the base roster and because none of vergeben's sources ever implied dlc. its just boxists trying to fit him into the theory.

Your trying to disprove the box theory also makes the assumption DLC hasn't been worked on

 

[Schnee117]

Marvel characters I'd want most:

1. Warlock (Technarch)
2. Iceman
3. She-Hulk
4. The Thing
5. Spider-Man

Side note: C'mon people, I mean, it's one thing to constantly say "deconfirm" instead of disconfirm, but for the love of God, it's Spider-Man, not Spiderman.

View attachment 165562

For my Mahvel characters I'd go with:
- Moon Knight
- Wolverine
- Deadpool
- Dr Doom
- Black Panther
- Kamala Khan
- Venom (Eddie Brock)
- Captain America (Steve Rogers)
- Storm
- Spider-Man (Peter Parker)