Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[N3ON]

Pushmo needs a stage. I mean I probably wouldn't play it, I imagine it would be very gimmicky, but it still needs one.

 

[Schnee117]

I don't appreciate this assertion. I don't ask for you to agree with me, but I at least ask you to respect me enough to not doubt the earnestness of my view. I compare Bayonetta and Goku, though Goku is a much more extreme case, because in my view they are poor choices for the same reason: They don't fit the concept of smash.

The concept of Smash is "Video Game characters that people like coming together in a fighting game"

Goku and Bayonetta are not comparable at all. If you won't argue in good faith then leave.

 

[Deleted member]

Bayonetta huh? I wouldn't mind seeing her return. With Bayonetta and Bsyonetta 2 coming to Nintendo Switch and Bayonetta 3 on it's way. She's pretty much a Nintendo character now. So her chances seem high.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Panel de Pon and Pushmo are both by Intelligent Systems (the former with some help from Nintendo R&D1 I believe). If Mallo gets in, Lip's chances nosedive.

I have no idea what you're on about. Pushmo getting a rep does not decrease the chances of Panel de Pon getting a rep just because they're both made by the same first-party company (iirc).

 

[Zzuxon]

The concept of Smash is "Video Game characters that people like coming together in a fighting game"

Goku and Bayonetta are not comparable at all. If you won't argue in good faith then leave.

You literally quoted the exact passage where I explain why Goku and Bayonetta ARE comparable, and that I AM arguing in good faith.
And I will not leave.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I can say so with confidence because they never claimed that she actually won, they essentially just said that she was the highest ranking among characters that they wanted to make, which could exclude any number of others.

Spoiler: Disclaimer

...Huh. I can see why they would say something like this on the ballot winner, but... Why do you do this to us, Sakurai...?

 

[MSmariosonic]

I know, but it took a long time to write, and as soon as I posted it, two other pages had been made.

Just want it to be seen. No harm in that.

Your post gave me a repetitive strain injury.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So.... Spring Man could be an interesting an unique newcomer character, being something like Dhalsim.

 

[Deleted member]

Dang, this thread is so active. I like the increased activity though.

Bowser Jr. is a unique character in Smash who makes great use of his Clown Car; he's got a multitude of gadgets, something very few other characters have, his playstyle has a lot of personality to it, and he has a unique mechanic where attacks aimed at the car deal less damage while attacks aimed at Jr. himself deal more damage.

There is literally no reason to change him whatsoever.

While Bowser Junior needs a buff really badly, I agree that Bowser Junior should not have his moves changed. Having a unique character like him is essential for making a roster fun.

Also.... I know Subspace is too "showy", but I would personally like one. Then again, Subspace is really hard to create and animate so I would be fine not making Subspace. Instead, Adventure Mode would be a nice concept to add in. I hope the enemies from BOTW are added in, because those would be really good for an Adventure mode. They offer diversity and potential creative ideas.

 

[Curious Villager]

Panel de Pon and Pushmo are both by Intelligent Systems (the former with some help from Nintendo R&D1 I believe). If Mallo gets in, Lip's chances nosedive.

Pretty sure there are no rules that a Nintendo company is only allowed to have one new franchise in Smash per Smash game..

 

[Schnee117]

You literally quoted the exact passage where I explain why Goku and Bayonetta ARE comparable, and that I AM arguing in good faith.
And I will not leave.

They objectively aren't comparable at all.

 

[Megadoomer]

You already posted this.

I was wondering why it felt like I had deja vu.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Uhhhhhh

Maybe because it breaks the rules? Maybe because it comes off as selfish? Maybe because it comes off as seeking attention?

Oh! I’m sorry. I wasn’t aware of the rule. My apologies. I’ll erase it.

You don’t have to crucify me. My God, I was just trying to explain my character choices and see what others thought. It’s not that serious.

You didn't even bother to shorten it or rewrite it. It takes up so much room.

I’m erasing it. I wasn’t aware of reposting. My apologies.

 

[andimidna]

Cutting Cloud, Ryu, or Mewtwo at this point is insanity lmao
Same with Corrin, Greninja, and even Lucas honestly.
All of that assumes the game is built from the ground up. Why would that be the case?
Also, wasn’t making clones and semi-clones mainly for roster padding at the end of development for previous games? I’d think that with DLC as a known option, that’d be outdated and irrelevant. If anything, I expect more focus on diversifying now that we got so many amazing inclusions, with still a decent handful of new characters for hype/promotion

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

You literally quoted the exact passage where I explain why Goku and Bayonetta ARE comparable, and that I AM arguing in good faith.
And I will not leave.

"Not fitting Smash" is a subjective term anyway, so your argument holds little water as-is.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

SuperSmashStephen

This was my first time seeing it. If you did indeed post this a few pages, I must have only read the names at the beginning of each sentence because I do not recall seeing this post. i agree with what you said about Paper Mario.

 

[Zzuxon]

They objectively aren't comparable at all.

You accuse me of arguing in bad faith, and yet you have not even attempted to respond to my explanation for why I feel they are comparable. You simply make assertions.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Stating an opinion as a fact was never a good way to argue an argument.

 

[Retroend]

so here are my wants for new characters.

1. king k rool- we need more villains.
2. ridley- same as king k rool
3. isaac- a unique sword fighter. can use psyenergy and other magical abilities
4. hades- same as ridley and king k rool
5. ice climbers- limitations held them back but now theres no stopping them.
6. wolf- was missed and shouldnt be a problem coming back. star fox needs more representation.
7. inklings- popular new series, their inclusion was obvious.
8. dedciueye- pokemon need more reps. also to complete the fire, water, grass starter combination.
9. impa. zelda deserves more representation.
10. rex- xenoblade can use another character.
11. arms character- new series and new fighting game.
12. 3rd party character- are there any big shots left?

i only put 12 because i think that enough of a number of new characters to put in. if sakurai adds more, more power to him.

 

[Polan]

They objectively aren't comparable at all.

Actually they are, Zzuxon doesn't want them in smash, thus they are comparable.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Why are we arguing about Bayo's inclusion? It's pretty obvious with the ports and Bayo 3 that she's staying.

 

[Zzuxon]

"Not fitting Smash" is a subjective term anyway, so your argument holds little water as-is.

Subjectivity does not invalidate the discussion. It is true that "fitting smash" is subjective. But someone could, conceivably, feel that Barack Obama would be fitting for smash. The fact that "fitting smash" is subjective doesn't mean that this opinion is immune to criticism or discussion.

 

[Schnee117]

You accuse me of arguing in bad faith, and yet you have not even attempted to respond to my explanation for why I feel they are comparable. You simply make assertions.

Your explanation is a load of dross not even worth a proper response.

And it's convenient that you ignored this:

The concept of Smash is "Video Game characters that people like coming together in a fighting game"

The mere fact you compare a video game character to a manga character is enough to tell that you are arguing in bad faith.

Actually they are, Zzuxon doesn't want them in smash, thus they are comparable.

lmao, perfect

 

[N. Onymous]

Pretty sure there are no rules that a Nintendo company is only allowed to have one new franchise in Smash per Smash game..

If you say so. I still have my doubts, though - if IS wants Mallo to represent their puzzle games instead of Lippy, there's not a lot Sakurai can do to stop them.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Why are we arguing about Bayo's inclusion? It's pretty obvious with the ports and Bayo 3 that she's staying.

I wouldn't call her a shoe-in just yet; remember she was a DLC character in Smash 4, and we currently have no idea how those will be treated moving forward.

 

[PhantomShab]

Bayonetta was a mistake who should have never have been added in my opinion. I can't stand her and her obnoxious fanbase, but I know she's coming back anyways since Nintendo feels compelled to moneyhat for her games for whatever reason. She's not a Nintendo character though and never will be, dunno why that asinine meme caught on tbh.

 

[Jubileus57]

You say Goku is a bad idea because he isn't a video game character. And that is true. But what you aren't understanding is that, to me at least, Goku and Bayonetta are bad choices for the same reason: THEY DON'T FIT THE CONCEPT OF SMASH.

I don't see why a character heavily marketed by Nintendo, whose last two games out of three are funded by Nintendo, from a series with two of the best rated games in history and with a 3rd game coming soon exclusively on a Nintendo console wouldn't fit a Nintendo crossover title.

Then again, to each their own opinion. Still I wouldn't compare Goku's case with Bayonetta, they are nothing alike.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Ryu fits less in Smash compared to Bayo for me. I like playing Ryu and all but he felt a bit unnecessary.

I wouldn't call her a shoe-in just yet; remember she was a DLC character in Smash 4, and we currently have no idea how those will be treated moving forward.

The only reason why she wouldn't be in the next Smash is to lower the rating to E10+ and even then she'll be DLC.

 

[Curious Villager]

If you say so. I still have my doubts, though - if IS wants Mallo to represent their puzzle games instead of Lippy, there's not a lot Sakurai can do to stop them.

I doubt IS can really force that choice on him, if I recall correctly, he stated once that he wouldn't have included Pac-Man at all if Namco forced him to use the Ghostly Adventures design. At the end of the day It's still his call and the most IS can do is suggest him these characters to use.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I feel like Balloon Fighter has a decent shot this time if only as an Iwata tribute of sorts.

It's not what you meant, but that gave me a Forthog Orcslayer flashback. There is actually nothing worse.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think a modification of the Nintendogs stage for 3DS can work well for Pushmo. Blocks already fall down from the stage, all we need now is a background wall that can determine a set area for the blocks to always be at and then add Mallo, his daughter, or the grandfather to help push blocks to change the layout of the stage.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think we need to just get over the fact that Sakurai thinks differently about Smash Bros. as a series than we we may think the "true vision" is. He's done a wonderful job with the series thus far.

If you don't like Bayonetta, fine. But other people do. Instead of tearing the character down for essentially irrelevant reasons, be constructive and suggest new characters. Advocate for those characters. I was skeptical of Bayonetta when she first came out, but I'm completely fine with her sticking around. I don't play as her, and I'm missing one of my favorites in Snake. But I'm not going to be salty about one character because she's not my favorite.

It's frankly such a waste of energy to be mad about it. Is it really surprising that flame wars start after somebody calls out a character and calls them effectively "trash"?

I'll be honest and say there's a number of characters that I feel might be "trash" inclusions, but I'm not going to say it thinking people will openly accept it.

I've got my wants, everybody has theirs. Some may overlap, some may not. That said let's, please, try to be constructive.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

1. Ice Climbers, Pichu, and Roy are all bad inclusions. However, they are at least badly chosen Nintendo characters. A 3rd party character is a much bigger deal.

.

That's your opinion. Nothing more to it than that.

I have seen many people who would completely disagree, especially in regards to the Ice Climbers and Roy.

You aren't fully understanding my smash philosophy. "All-Star" is shorthand for importance to nintendo. I think is an excellent choice, as Wii Fit is a very important part of nintendo's history.

I'm going to point this out again; there isn't any given or universally accepted definition for "All Star". The term doesn't hold up much when the majority of fans can't agree on just what it means. There's no official given definition of such a term from the developers, either, Sakurai included.

It's entirely a subjective term that's largely made up, and in the grand scheme of things, is pretty meaningless.

Sure, here on Smashboards people who want Goku get laughed out of town. But we don't see the thousands upon thousands of very passionate 10-year olds who I am positive voted for Gku in droves.
You say Goku is a bad idea because he isn't a video game character. And that is true. But what you aren't understanding is that, to me at least, Goku and Bayonetta are bad choices for the same reason: THEY DON'T FIT THE CONCEPT OF SMASH.


I don't appreciate this assertion. I don't ask for you to agree with me, but I at least ask you to respect me enough to not doubt the earnestness of my view. I compare Bayonetta and Goku, though Goku is a much more extreme case, because in my view they are poor choices for the same reason: They don't fit the concept of smash.

I still don't see how it's fair to compare the two because, even if they don't fit the concept in your eyes, it's not for the same reasons as one and other.

Bayonetta has had a very significant involvement with Nintendo in the past few years, which included the sequel to her first game being exclusive to the Wii U. Apart from that, she actually originated from a video game. Goku has none of these things, and for the very fact that he is not a video game character, he has never nor will he ever have a chance to begin with. Bayonetta might be something of an exception, but she fits the bill just enough, and far more than Goku ever could.

Comparing Goku to any character in Smash is simply not fair to do.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Not only does have extreme popularity, but the Smash team worked very hard to make her playable. She's not leaving.

 

[Oasis Dealer]

I must commend you two, for having the most well-reasoned responses to my point thus far. I will say 2 things:
1. Ice Climbers, Pichu, and Roy are all bad inclusions. However, they are at least badly chosen Nintendo characters. A 3rd party character is a much bigger deal.
2. As for your belief that Bayonetta was a special situation that doesn't reflect on smash as a whole, I can only say I hope you are right. Alternatively, I hope nintendo thinks of Bayonetta more as an "Honorary Nintendo Character," not a third party. But I think that's wishful thinking. I wish I could believe that. But I don't.



You aren't fully understanding my smash philosophy. "All-Star" is shorthand for importance to nintendo. I think is an excellent choice, as Wii Fit is a very important part of nintendo's history.


Putting words into my mouth, nice. Roy is also a bad inclusion.


Sure, here on Smashboards people who want Goku get laughed out of town. But we don't see the thousands upon thousands of very passionate 10-year olds who I am positive voted for Gku in droves.
You say Goku is a bad idea because he isn't a video game character. And that is true. But what you aren't understanding is that, to me at least, Goku and Bayonetta are bad choices for the same reason: THEY DON'T FIT THE CONCEPT OF SMASH.


I don't appreciate this assertion. I don't ask for you to agree with me, but I at least ask you to respect me enough to not doubt the earnestness of my view. I compare Bayonetta and Goku, though Goku is a much more extreme case, because in my view they are poor choices for the same reason: They don't fit the concept of smash.

Responding to your two points
1. I can understand where you're coming from. I think Ice Climbers were a nice representative for retro appeal that also had a unique mechanic to them. If done right, it can also raise interest in bringing said franchise or character back, like Kid Icarus (Even if it was Sakurai that did exactly that). For Roy and Pichu, I ask the question, do you think there were better options for clones? I don't personally care for Pichu, but I think as a way to represent the recently introduced baby Pokemon was pretty fair. Roy is up for debate since he was added for promotion purposes, but I think you could potentially take that as him being an example of a future Nintendo star (Even if his game didn't take off).
2. I don't think there's anything to worry about. With Bayonetta being more associated with the Nintendo brand, she's definitely becoming an "honorary" Nintendo character in a way lol. In regards to who does ever get added as a 3rd party character, is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm perfectly fine with inclusions like Travis Touchdown, Shovel Knight, or Phoenix Wright if they were to get included (Examples of smaller franchises close to or similar in popularity to Bayonetta). I'd definitely prefer other inclusions (Like Rayman or Crash) but it ultimately doesn't matter for me.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Dang, this thread is so active. I like the increased activity though.

It's getting active for bit non-delicate reasons though.

You aren't fully understanding my smash philosophy. "All-Star" is shorthand for importance to nintendo. I think is an excellent choice, as Wii Fit is a very important part of nintendo's history.

Indeed it is - but a lot wouldn't exactly expect a character from Wii Fit, much lest making it in much higher priority over likes of their own fan-favorites still missing. (K.Rool, Dixie, Toad, etc).

In whole, just how many characters from Smash 4 has the "importance to Nintendo" been the main factor on including them? Have they been mainly advertised, promoted with this factor in mind?

Sakurai mainly talks about how they'll play, and concentrates on that mainly - compared to that, the importance to Nintendo is bit a secondary by this point, especially with how we have gotten most of the very recognizable faces back in Brawl. (+ )

Compare to Smash 4 that didn't add as much meanwhile, instead adding more new IPs having highly varying newcomers in means of playstyle () or building on existing franchises with more innovative playstyle-driven characters. ( ).

Same vein for 3rd Parties as well (,, and especially ).

So TBQH, the important to Nintendo is at best, pretty secondary by this point - if kind of a low factor to whether character should be included (unless they are driven heavily by nostalgia aesthetic, such as, or ).

I have no idea what you're on about. Pushmo getting a rep does not decrease the chances of Panel de Pon getting a rep just because they're both made by the same first-party company (iirc).

I suppose it's because Pushmo-representation might take the "role" from Panel De Pon's reason for being included, that being the somewhat profilic puzzler Nintendo and I.S had made during last years. Though I dunno if I agree with that...

 

[Megadoomer]

so here are my wants for new characters.

1. king k rool- we need more villains.
2. ridley- same as king k rool
3. isaac- a unique sword fighter. can use psyenergy and other magical abilities
4. hades- same as ridley and king k rool
5. ice climbers- limitations held them back but now theres no stopping them.
6. wolf- was missed and shouldnt be a problem coming back. star fox needs more representation.
7. inklings- popular new series, their inclusion was obvious.
8. dedciueye- pokemon need more reps. also to complete the fire, water, grass starter combination.
9. impa. zelda deserves more representation.
10. rex- xenoblade can use another character.
11. arms character- new series and new fighting game.
12. 3rd party character- are there any big shots left?

i only put 12 because i think that enough of a number of new characters to put in. if sakurai adds more, more power to him.

Looks like a good list in my eyes.

As far as third party characters are concerned, there's Snake (or other Konami characters, like Simon Belmont, Alucard, Bomberman, Bill Rizer from Contra, etc.), Rayman, another Namco-Bandai character like Heihachi or Agumon, another Square-Enix character like a hero from Dragon Quest or Lara Croft (or Geno from Mario RPG), Doomguy, Crash Bandicoot, an indie character like Shovel Knight/Shantae/Quote from Cave Story/Meat Boy/Sans/Commander Video, Travis Touchdown... There are a lot of options, though your mileage may vary on which ones are considered "big shots".

 

[N. Onymous]

I doubt IS can really force that choice on him, if I recall correctly, he stated once that he wouldn't have included Pac-Man at all if Namco forced him to use the Ghostly Adventures design. At the end of the day It's still his call and the most IS can do is suggest him these characters to use.

That's a very good point, I forgot about that.

 

[Retroend]

Looks like a good list in my eyes.

As far as third party characters are concerned, there's Snake (or other Konami characters, like Simon Belmont, Alucard, Bomberman, Bill Rizer from Contra, etc.), Rayman, another Namco-Bandai character like Heihachi or Agumon, another Square-Enix character like a hero from Dragon Quest or Lara Croft (or Geno from Mario RPG), Doomguy, Crash Bandicoot, an indie character like Shovel Knight/Shantae/Quote from Cave Story/Meat Boy/Sans/Commander Video, Travis Touchdown... There are a lot of options, though your mileage may vary on which ones are considered "big shots".

thank you. finally someone agrees with me. i agree with your third party options.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Thoughts of KOS-MOS getting in? She was in Project x Zone 1 & 2 (a xenoblade character was in Project x Zone 2 and paired up with her). KOS-MOS made an appearance in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 plus she shares the same developer as the Xenoblade games. To me, she is my shock factor character. I also just want to hear her speech patterns and have her yell "DWAGEN TOOTH!!".