Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[A Distant Demon]

It is clear that Sakurai doesn't give a **** about importance, or representation, or All-Star quality

Clearly, we have not been playing the same games.


All varying levels of importance and all stars.

was an entire peripheral from a pretty damn well selling fad, (plus, weird haracters like this are great for a casual game like smash)

was the ballot. Duh

All that's left are either clones, or a few characters that are cool niche breakout characters like Shulk or palutena that are just cool to round out the roster. And there isn't anything wrong with that lol.

As for representation, that's always been nonsense that only the hyper-hardcore care about, but even then, Zelda got a **** ton of content, Mario got newcomers, Pokemon got newcomers and Mewtwo, and Charizard reworked, etc.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

"All Star" is an entirely subjective term anyway, as far as Smash goes.

There are tons of well known characters from Nintendo IPs who still haven't gotten in a Smash game as playable fighters, for reasons that vary. Many probably never will.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Earlier, someone said that ARMS is not that big or something. As for Nintendo supporting ARMS, their Japan youtube channel has been doing plenty of livestreams over ARMS lifetime covering tournaments.

Since we have covered the Mario and Pokemon franchises having a-lot of rep's, why is Fire Emblem getting the shaft, when we are fine with the others? I know the reason, but still.

Pokemon caught in other generations can still be used in newer generations. Not exactly the same for FE.

Also I'm tired of FE.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

With Inklings confimed who do you think are the most wanted Nintendo newcomers?

 

[Retroend]

So, how about those sword users, eh? How many of them do you think we'll get as newcomers for this game?

I'm hoping Isaac makes it in this time.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For anyone using the competitive scene as an argument, be careful that some of it can be taken with a grain of salt due to some of it coming from knee-jerk reactions.

Edit: I'd like Issac, soley for his design and his battle theme.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

For anyone using the competitive scene as an argument, be careful that some of it can be taken with a grain of salt due to some of it coming from knee-jerk reactions.

An argument for what? Against FE?

 

[Zzuxon]

Clearly, we have not been playing the same games.


All varying levels of importance and all stars.

was an entire peripheral from a pretty damn well selling fad, (plus, weird haracters like this are great for a casual game like smash)

was the ballot. Duh

All that's left are either clones, or a few characters that are cool niche breakout characters like Shulk or palutena that are just cool to round out the roster. And there isn't anything wrong with that lol.

As for representation, that's always been nonsense that only the hyper-hardcore care about, but even then, Zelda got a **** ton of content, Mario got newcomers, Pokemon got newcomers and Mewtwo, and Charizard reworked, etc.

I'm not saying Sakurai made no good choices. ( are all fantastic choices). But the fact that Toad, Ridley, K. Rool etc. are not in the game clearly shows that importance and all-star quality are secondary or tertiary concerns for him at best. Plus he made breathtakingly awful choices like and .

He made some right choices, but for the wrong reasons.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Pokemon caught in other generations can still be used in newer generations. Not exactly the same for FE.

Also I'm tired of FE.

With one of them you can pet them, groom them, and cultivate them to use them as broodmares for spawning stronger offspring.

And the other one is Pokemon.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

No, for cutting characters like Bayonetta or Ryu. Some competitive players do not like them for winning games that the losing player felt was not deserved. Just growing pains to me for a competitive scene, but it has come to the point where it has been a huge topic for us, time and time again.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

No, for cutting characters like Bayonetta or Ryu. Some competitive players do not like them for winning games that the losing player felt was not deserved. Just growing pains to me for a competitive scene, but it has come to the point where it has been a huge topic for us, time and time again.

Don't need to remove them, just nerf them. Removing them is a terrible idea.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think my most wanted Nintendo character now that Inklings are here would be Lyn. Inklings were my #1 for this game regardless of how obvious they were.

Overall, I see ARMS characters discussed the most. Not sure if they are "most wanted" though. Perhaps most wanted Nintendo characters would be the likes of K. Rool, Ridley, or some other long-time desired character that I can't think of.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I'm not saying Sakurai made no good choices. ( are all fantastic choices). But the fact that Toad, Ridley, K. Rool etc. are not in the game clearly shows that importance and all-star quality are secondary or tertiary concerns for him at best. Plus he made breathtakingly awful choices like and , for the same reasons.

He made some right choices, but for the wrong reasons.

Dark Pit was an alt that got upgraded for an "everyone wins" situation.
Bayonetta was the ballot. . .i dont think I need to explain why that isnt a "breathtakingly awful" decision lol.

 

[Chron]

SMASH FOR SWITCH ROSTER LEAK!!!!!!
100% LEGITIMATE!!!!!

 

[Zzuxon]

Dark Pit was an alt that got upgraded for an "everyone wins" situation.
Bayonetta was the ballot. . .i dont think I need to explain why that isnt a "breathtakingly awful" decision lol.

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I just took a look at the amount of newcomers added in each Smash game, and it was more than I thought.
Note that I'm counting transformation characters as their own characters, since that's how they're being treated now and that's how much development time they take.

Melee had 14 newcomers, with 8 being unique and 6 being clones. It's worth noting this game was rushed to be completed in 13 months.

Brawl had 17 newcomers, with 15 being unique and 2 being clones (I'm counting Toon Link as the same character as Young Link, since he's a direct replacement). Brawl had 4 cuts from Melee, with 1 unique character and 3 clones.

Smash 4 (base game, no DLC) ALSO had 17 newcomers, with 15 being unique and 2 clones. It also had 6 cuts from Brawl, with 4 being unique characters and 2 being clones.

With most assets likely being ported from Smash Wii U and focusing on just one system again instead of two platforms, we're likely going to see at least 15 newcomers.

I didn't expect that many until I looked at the numbers. I can't even think of that many newcomers without one seeming pretty weird and unlikely. This is going to be a really wild ride. Guess I'll go make my first full prediction roster now.

 

[Polan]

K. Rool
all-star quality .

There's a lot of things that I would call K. Rool, but all star is not one of them. There's a good reason why he got left out of the newer games.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept.

Cool characters fighting other cool characters on cool stages with items. Bayonetta is pretty cool, beloved by fans, and way bigger than her own games.

Nah. . .she seems to fit smash's concept pretty well.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

lol

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

There's a lot of things that I would call K. Rool, but all star is not one of them. There's a good reason why he got left out of the newer games.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that K. Rool isn't all star quality. He is the most notable villain from one of Nintendo's most notable franchises. Hes been in a ton of games, too.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm not saying Sakurai made no good choices. ( are all fantastic choices). But the fact that Toad, Ridley, K. Rool etc. are not in the game clearly shows that importance and all-star quality are secondary or tertiary concerns for him at best. Plus he made breathtakingly awful choices like and , for the same reasons.

He made some right choices, but for the wrong reasons.

Ridley isn't in because as far as we know right now, Sakurai simply thinks the character can't be made into a fighter while remaining faithful to his portrayal in Metroid. So, that example doesn't really count.

Dark Pit wasn't even going to get in on his own at first. I might disagree with the decision to turn him from a alt. costume into his own character since he's hardly different from Pit, but it's not like he got in over characters like K. Rool or Toad. Had they gotten in, there's a chance DP might not have even been finished in time for release. Clones like him have always been low priority.

Bayonetta was chosen because she won the ballot. Simple as that.

I don't know how you define "All-star" or "All-star quality", but here's the thing: there is no single, universally accepted definition of "all star" in this community. Characters you might consider "all stars" might not be "all stars" to someone else, or vice-versa. The term, as we use it for Smash, is subjective.

Importance has always been a factor, but it's hardly ever been the deciding one. You're not wrong there. But I personally don't see it as a bad thing.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

While the characters chosen are based on their star power and how iconic they are, it's also based on their general popularity. It's both "Nintendo's all-stars," and "all your favorite characters."

More people voted Bayonetta as an all-star worthy of Smash than literally ANYONE ELSE not currently playable. If a character is that popular and got that much support, than she's clearly more of an all-star than some of us might think.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

Nintendo likes Bayonetta to the point people associate the franchise with Nintendo more than the actual owners of the franchise so idk what the hell you're talking about. How DARE a popular character make it in after Smash fans clamoured for her inclusion

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that K. Rool isn't all star quality. He is the most notable villain from one of Nintendo's most notable franchises. Hes been in a ton of games, too.

Wasn't his last game appearance a baseball Mario game?

 

[PeridotGX]

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

Bayonetta was voted in, it wasn't Sakurai's choice.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Smash has kind of has dropped the whole "All-Star" schtick by now (At least for Nintendo characters for the most part) as a number of the cast in Smash 4's "All-Star" status is.... debatable at best...

 

[MopedOfJustice]

More people voted Bayonetta as an all-star worthy of Smash than literally ANYONE ELSE not currently playable. If a character is that popular and got that much support, than she's clearly more of an all-star than some of us might think.

That's simply false. She didn't win the poll, she was picked out of characters who performed well in the poll.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Honestly if Smash could only have all-stars in it's roster we'd be stuck with like nine characters, and five of them would be Mario characters.

 

[CannonStreak]

Wasn't his last game appearance a baseball Mario game?

Yes, but if I recall correctly, they renewed his trademark during the DLC days of Smash Bros 4. I don't know what it was for, honestly, but it was only a few years ago,

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Wasn't his last game appearance a baseball Mario game?

I mean I didn't say his inclusion in many games was recent. But honestly, he's highly requested, extremely recognizable, and has been in 5 games off the top of my head. The only reason I believe we don't see him anymore is because Nintendo seemed to try to step away from things Rare focused on. But Kremlings have appeared as recently as Smash Run on 3DS, so the Krocs are certainly not forgotten. Perhaps the push on the ballot could be enough to show that people still recognize/want him in the game, and to return to the DK series.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Don't need to remove them, just nerf them. Removing them is a terrible idea.

That's the thing. It's already happened but the competitive players are still complaining and asking for a second round of it. Recently we have seen a push for counter-play and players in general getting better, it's slow progress. Now with Smash 5 on the horizon, I've been hearing "remove characters that hinder my competitive chances from Smash 5!".

Either nothing will satisfy some of them or we may get another round of nerfs. If Smash 5 changes any mechanics, that may be enough in-direct nerfs to fill their bellies. If you ask me, I want Bayonetta in Smash 5 just so players cannot get the easy way out of their problems. I have no qualms with her competitively. Just trying to see if I can help on that topic, if any, without changing the topic of this thread.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Are we about to start "slots" argument? Slots don't exist. Sakurai could copy and paste Mario a hundred times and change them a bit.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think Smash has kind of has dropped the whole "All-Star" schtick by now (At least for Nintendo characters for the most part) as a number of the cast in Smash 4's "All-Star" status is.... debatable at best...

Nobody is ever considered an "All-Star" on this site.

 

[Megadoomer]

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

I'm not exactly sure if the Ice Climbers (characters from a one-off NES game with terrible controls), Roy (a character whose game hadn't even released at the time that Melee came out), or Pichu are considered all-stars, and that's just from the second game in the series.

Bayonetta's situation isn't one that could be easily replicated (she was added as the winner of a worldwide popularity poll; at best, there would only be one of those per console generation, and with the data they got from the Smash Ballot, they might not need to do another one), and as far as Nintendo's concerned, she's had a big influence. Nintendo outright saved her franchise from cancellation, they clearly have faith in Platinum Games (between letting them work on one of Nintendo's own franchises, funding games like the Wonderful 101, etc.), and they've advertised her alongside their characters.

It's extreme, at the very least, to say that a character's inclusion "removes the series' meaning" and "actively makes the game worse".

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The inclusion of a relatively obscure, niche third party character like Bayonetta actively debases smash as a concept. Smash is about Nintendo, it's history, it's all stars. And we've had some third party characters too. But huge ones. Sonic, Snake, Pac-Man, MegaMan. Characters with major influences on Nintendo, and the video game industry as a whole. So I'm fine with those, or any other character of comparable significance.

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

One third-party character has an entirely unique reason for getting included. So? One exception is a bad thing?

There is absolutely nothing indicating that Smash is going to completely change it's direction with third-party characters, as a result of Bayonetta's inclusion or otherwise.

 

[Zzuxon]

While the characters chosen are based on their star power and how iconic they are, it's also based on their general popularity. It's both "Nintendo's all-stars," and "all your favorite characters."

More people voted Bayonetta as an all-star worthy of Smash than literally ANYONE ELSE not currently playable. If a character is that popular and got that much support, than she's clearly more of an all-star than some of us might think.

Nintendo likes Bayonetta to the point people associate the franchise with Nintendo more than the actual owners of the franchise so idk what the hell you're talking about. How DARE a popular character make it in after Smash fans clamoured for her inclusion

Loads of smash fans want Goku. I'd bet anyone here $300 that Goku got more votes in the ballot than Bayonetta.

So you're saying that Goku ought to be in smash?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Bayonetta has none of that. Her inclusion removes smash's meaning, and turns it into an anything goes cluster-you-know-what. She actively makes the game worse, just like Goku would actively make the game worse if he were included. She is, by far, the worst inclusion in the history of the series.

Ballot-winner though. That's was a fair game to everybody, and she rose above them all. Thus she deserves her "oddly" inclusion on the cast - and was also her only way to be there. On that end, she's become pretty amicably bonded with Nintendo as of late since. So I think she flows in pretty well, much like .


On that end, since Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion, I had dropped the mentality on what characters are a must-to-add based on their "All Star" status in the respective series they'd come from, and witnessed over time how much their potential for intuitive, innovative movesets have more played on them being included instead.

Hence why I don't exactly bank on Toad, Dixie, Bandanna Dee, or other "missing stars" to exactly pop in this series by their beloved status alone - There's gotta be something to make them compelling to add, and so far, we have to yet see that bear much fruition.

A lot characters from newest IPs seem a lot what Sakurai might add in instead due how more vivid their playstyles have been due more unique mechanics that show various innovations Nintendo's created lately (Splatoon, ARMS and Nintendo Labo especially). There might be other characters possibly thrown due popularity quota (Pokemon, Fire Emblem), but even they'll possibly have their movesets ensured not being cookie-cutter at least - we'll instead see something that makes them appealing due the ways they play.
So yeah, to "All Star", I'll just say .


At least Captain Toad keeps marching on with his own tales beyond Smash compared to some characters that are heavily life-sustained by it in means of relevance (), which is pretty enough to me.



Though arguably, Wii Fit Trainer seems not too popular to be demanded heavily back as I've seen so far.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

While the characters chosen are based on their star power and how iconic they are, it's also based on their general popularity. It's both "Nintendo's all-stars," and "all your favorite characters."

More people voted Bayonetta as an all-star worthy of Smash than literally ANYONE ELSE not currently playable. If a character is that popular and got that much support, than she's clearly more of an all-star than some of us might think.

*among realizable characters

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Are we about to start "slots" argument? Slots don't exist. Sakurai could copy and paste Mario a hundred times and change them a bit.

That's supported by he fact that, iirc, Sakurai doesn't not believe in the concept.

No character introduced is going to strip another of their chances.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That's the thing. It's already happened but the competitive players are still complaining and asking for a second round of it. Recently we have seen a push for counter-play and players in general getting better, it's slow progress. Now with Smash 5 on the horizon, I've been hearing "remove characters that hinder my competitive chances from Smash 5!".

Either nothing will satisfy some of them or we may get another round of nerfs. If Smash 5 changes any mechanics, that may be enough in-direct nerfs to fill their bellies. If you ask me, I want Bayonetta in Smash 5 just so players cannot get the easy way out of their problems. I have no qualms with her competitively. Just trying to see if I can help on that topic, if any, without changing the topic of this thread.

The people in the competitive community want Bayonetta to not have a frame-1 dodge that interrupts things that are true combos on every other character, don't want witch time that lets you reposition your opponent and then charge a smash attack, and don't want ladder combos that can potentially kill from zero depending on rage. It's not Bayonetta herself that is an issue, it's that she has consistent tools that are just outright better versions of airdodge, counter, and typical smash combos. I think she's fun to play, but it also has to be considered how fun she is to play against, and I and many others don't find her fun to play against at all.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Loads of smash fans want Goku. I'd bet anyone here $300 that Goku got more votes in the ballot than Bayonetta.

So you're saying that Goku ought to be in smash?

If not for the fact Bayonetta fits the one Ballot rule and Goku doesn't... Ah **** it, you STILL wouldn't have a point. Besides, Vegeta is better, add him

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Let me try this again.