Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Misery Brick]

And my point against that is that Sakurai is clearly malleable in his thought process. DLC development is basically entirely separate from main game development anyway, and is focused on giving more content. A playable character is, objectively, more content than an Assist, and due to the fan outcry they can easily see there is a market for characters like Waluigi.

It doesn't even need to be Waluigi, really, but any Assist. I don't think Sakurai would completely disregard that money fountain just because he made up his mind prior. Characters like Ridley, Chrom, Pac-Man, and Villager show that pretty well. All were characters who, for one reason or another, Sakurai had misgivings about, but upgraded to please fans.

And even then, is it really so hard to "scrap" that one Assist when it's been a thing for three games now? It probably didn't take a lot of work to begin with, and it's not like it was one made for Ultimate specifically.

Here's something to mention though:
Those have been across multiple iterations of Smash games. Sakurai hasn't made a decision like that within the same development cycle.
Also it still goes against his design philosophy and perception of characters like I stated before.
All representation is considered equal.
Regardless of that, the thing about "upgrading" Assist Trophies, you're still scrapping content in terms of the base game itself. In this scenario, there probably isn't another AT to replace it, as there weren't any that came with Smash 4's DLC.

And while doing so, you're having people to pay for the same character albeit in a playable form.
If anything that looks like it'd piss more people off than please them, as people would wonder why they weren't playable from the start.

And even if it didn't take as long to develop or make as an actual character, you're still wasting away man hours, work, and money that went into the Assist Trophies. It just doesn't seem worthwhile.
I'd also feel that if Sakurai wanted to make DLC consist of these possible fan favorite characters, and in the case of some he knows they're favorites, he wouldn't have included them in the base game originally.
It still goes back to the fact that he believes it's the best way to represent the character at that time.

I just don't see it happening, and it honestly feels like straw grasping at that point.
This is also coming from someone who's favorite characters to see are Poké Balls and Assist Trophies.
I just don't see it happening this time around.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

So we have not seen the following characters' Final Smashes:

ultrichter:

Which do you think changed? Which do you think are the same as last time?

Yoshi - Different
Luigi - Same
Captain Falcon - Same
Peach/Daisy - Different
Young Link - Different
Meta Knight - Probably same. Might have more flare though.
Lucario - same as Brawl maybe.
R.O.B. - same
Wii Fit Trainer - same
Greninja - same
Mii's - they're probably all the same as they were in For.
Robin - Different-ish. Likely same but different character in place of chrom.
Richter - same as Simon

That's all under the assumption of Ultimate's new Fast & Furious take on FINAL Smash's.

 

[Exalt4747]

Please, let Richter's Final Smash be Hyrdo Storm.

What is Hydro Storm?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Because not a one of them actually reps any of the spin-offs?

Peach having the golf club, tennis racket, etc in her moveset does not count.

The sports spin-offs and Mario Kart are some of Nintendo's biggest sellers. They are long overdue proper Smash representation.

Why do specific spin-offs need to be represented in the form of a moveset when Mario Kart, for example, has a stage?

Does Mario not represent Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, and other games already? I'm not quite sure why specific games or series need to be represented in the moveset of the character. Shouldn't the moveset represent the character?

There's more than one way to "rep" things. That's probably why I dislike the word "rep" when it comes to characters. For specific things in games, like Earthbound for example, Ness’ entire party has roles in the game. They aren't playable, but they are represented in another way. Why is that a problem?

Characters, it is my belief, are picked because of their personal potential. They aren’t picked and then suddenly saddled with the question, “How they can they specifically represent the game they come from?” The character represents themselves, which in turn represents the game. That’s a key difference.

Let’s just I disagree with this, vehemently.

"I guess I might as well end by saying that if you think this game won't be supported further after launch, well, that's not a smart assumption to make.

The Square Enix character that I heard about is an interesting exception in all of this when it comes to the box theory and my knowledge of there being a character of theirs comes from someone who's never had a habit of being wrong.

Even if that really is all for launch, it's not the end. "

Can someone explain to my dumb baby brain what Vergeben means by this when he says the SE rep is an "exception"?

Honestly, my guess is that the reason he questions it, despite the source providing this information “hasn’t been wrong”, he hasn’t heard it elsewhere.

Considering the demographic of these sources, it COULD be that that source has different access to information than the other two, and I think the SE pick could be DLC. That’s IF it’s true that another character could be coming.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

What it sounds to me is that this would...kinda disprove the box theory if indeed the SE rep is in base game right??

It would, that's what he has to look into, because he believes this source to be a worthy person of accurate info typically.

So he has to investigate further to see if they've somehow gotten early DLC information or what.

 

[TreeBranch]

Dewott is honestly way cooler than Samurott. Seriously the idle animation in black and white was so cool

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Yoshi - Different
Luigi - Same
Captain Falcon - Same
Peach/Daisy - Different
Young Link - Different
Meta Knight - Probably same. Might have more flare though.
Lucario - same as Brawl maybe.
R.O.B. - same
Wii Fit Trainer - same
Greninja - same
Mii's - they're probably all the same as they were in For.
Robin - Different-ish. Likely same but different character in place of chrom.
Richter - same as Simon

That's all under the assumption of Ultimate's new Fast & Furious take on FINAL Smash's.

There is no way ROB's is going to be the same because it goes against the way Final Smashes work now. Fast and to the point

 

[ZephyrZ]

From Nintendo UK:

Idk, seems pretty clear to me. Once you stop paying, you don't have your cloud saves. You've still got your local backup, but I honestly wonder if the saves will even be there if you cancel and later repurchase a subscription. I'm doubtful to be quite honest.

Well well, I suppose I've been misled. I guess that's what I get for not checking sources. I guess with all the hatred the online service has been getting, I figured what I heard about the cloud storage was believable because of how often people jump to conclusions when they're upset.

 

[Iridium]

What is Hydro Storm?

This, to be exact.

 

[Over9000BPM]

And it’d be a shock if they somehow didn’t get new Amiibos

I want to use the old ZSS amiibo to unlock that ZSS

 

[Idon]

There is no way ROB's is going to be the same because it goes against the way Final Smashes work now. Fast and to the point

Doesn't ROB just fire a laserbeam?

 

[ErenJager]

Ya guys wanna speculate on bosses? I heard rumors that Marx will be one.

Others I'd like to see are

-Any non-Poke Ball Legendary Pokemon
-Deathborn
-Dyna Blade
-General Scales w/ King RedEye
-Kracko
-Hades (Also as an recurring antagonist)
-King Boo
-Tiki Tong
-Waluigi (As a joke boss similar to Electricutioner in Arkham Origins and Mysterio in one of the Spider-Man games)

Skull Kid and his incarnations of majora.
Black knight.
Shadow we'll race against and then a boss fight.

 

[Potato_]

"I guess I might as well end by saying that if you think this game won't be supported further after launch, well, that's not a smart assumption to make.

The Square Enix character that I heard about is an interesting exception in all of this when it comes to the box theory and my knowledge of there being a character of theirs comes from someone who's never had a habit of being wrong.

Even if that really is all for launch, it's not the end. "

Can someone explain to my dumb baby brain what Vergeben means by this when he says the SE rep is an "exception"?

He's implying that box theory MIGHT be wrong, because he believes this rep is happening 100%. So it either confirms one thing or the other:

1. This rep is base game and the box theory is wrong.

2. This rep is DLC, which confirms DLC for the game.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Plus even if Richter still uses just Grand Cross, he's the creator of the move, which Julius Belmont would refine later.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I do feel like this month is gonna be back-and-forth about the box art and the Corocoro stage list until we get proper clarification...

Good lord this may be a longer wait then I thought it would...

As a Nintendo fan and not just a Smash fan this is how I'm looking at it, TGS is next week. I'm sure something Nintendo related is going to come up. Doubt it's Smash and doubt it's anything too big but it'll be something to look out for!
Then in just a couple weeks after that Super Mario Party comes out which I am super hyped for!

After that Nintendo doesn't have much until Pokemon Let's Go. Personally that means to me we will get some kind of development in October, either Smash, Pokemon, or possibly both (Incineroar reveal???).

So if you're more than just a Smash fan the next couple weeks shouldn't be too bad, and then I'm positive we'll here some kind of Nintendo news through October *here's hoping*

 

[Megadoomer]

So we have not seen the following characters' Final Smashes:

ultrichter:

Which do you think changed? Which do you think are the same as last time?

Robin's definitely changed, by virtue of Chrom being playable. (though I could see another character being used in his stead and it being kept the same otherwise)

I'm guessing that Yoshi's and Lucario's are similar in terms of gaining the shell powers from Mario World and Mega Evolving, though like Wario or Bowser they've become more cinematic.

I don't see why Greninja, Falcon, Meta Knight, or the Miis would change, and I could see Luigi's only being slightly altered to include the Poltergust.

I don't know enough about Richter to say for sure; I'm guessing it's either the same as Simon's or his Item Crash for Holy Water.

I feel like Young Link's is Fierce Deity. No idea for Peach, Daisy, ROB, or Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Chrono.]

Here's all the music we need from Sun and Moon
- Vs. Alola Elite Four
- Vs. Island Guardian
- Vs. Team Skull Boss Guzma
- Vs. Aether President Lusamine
- Apparel Shop
- Royale Avenue
- Vast Poni Canyon

>No Gladion theme but Apparel Shop

Bro...

 

[Androobie]

I have never experienced any Communication errors when playing Mario Kart online, though it's from days ago. But I've seen peoples playing alot on Splatoon 2 and not experiencing a lot of issues, if not no errors at all.

This is a goddamn lie and everyone here knows it.

 

[Dandelionel]

I'm late to the Mario Spin Off discussion but I wanna add something, in every trailer Daisy has been featured in, she uses Mario Tennis music, and her background in the website is Mario Kart. So even if her moveset is Diet Coke Pitch, Sakurai considers her a Spin Off rep. At least I imagine so

 

[Knight Dude]

So we have not seen the following characters' Final Smashes:

ultrichter:

Which do you think changed? Which do you think are the same as last time?

Richter's could be the same as Simon's, or another Item Crash.
Greninja's is probably very similar, if not outright the same as before, much like Ike.
Meta Knight's could be the same, but I wouldn't mind something that super dope.
Wii Fit's could stay the same, like Mario, Mega Man, Samus ect, since it's a Beam Super.
Yoshi NEEDS something new or new-ish, his last Final Smash is a transformation type, which were done away with more or less, or stick around only for a combo.
Luigi's SHOULD stay the same.
Captain Falcon's SHOULD stay the same too.
Lucario could have his Brawl Super, like Charizard getting Triple Finish again.
R.O.B could stay the same, but I think I new would be dope.
Robin's would have to be updated for the lack of Chrom, just don't know how.
Young Link should use FD's Mask and then use a Blade Beam(Think Zero's Level 3 in MVC3)
Peach would probably be updated.
Daisy might get Peach's but colored yellow.

 

[Pakky]

Starfy would have been great, but he's another character stuck in AT Hell.

What a weird way to spell Delphox.
Samurott and Emboar get way too much hate.

You're right.

Samurott is bad at least to me is because well what's good about it?

It's designed... makes no sense Delphox is underwhelming but not because of its a biped its kind of everything else(Like that a huge hang up for people for some reason with like EVERY STARTER). However, you know what's good about it? It's still a fox. Samurott is not an otter its a sea lion... WHY? Why would you turn something that known from using 'tools' which doubles back into using a weapon, actually making sense into something that doesn't even have hands let alone stand? Like Chespin into Chesnaught is kinda of the same thing but done right and you can tell one thing leads into the other. Samurott's line is the ONLY line in the stater families that I can comfortably say has this problem because we've changed animals entirely!

Otherwise:

Its stats are mediocre

Its move pool is good NOW but was eh back in gen 5.

Typing is odd if you're based on a WARRIOR class, why aren't you FIGHTING TYPE? or STEEL?

Its abilities are BAD, and that's where the train stops.

In my 20 some years of playing pokemon after gen 7 one thing became clear, abilities rule everything. If the monster's abilities have little to no use then its most likely bad.

Stats?- Can be boosted by an ability

Typing?- An ability can make it feel like you have three with none of the drawbacks (Dhelmise)

Moves? An ability can make so that the two moves in the monster's pool are all it needs to win whole matches

 

[Luigi The President]

If Switch Online is required to play Smash online then, well..I'm getting it. I'm sorry fellas.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

If Switch Online is required to play Smash online then, well..I'm getting it. I'm sorry fellas.

Yeah, Me too. There have been worse things...

 

[Jedisupersonic]

If Switch Online is required to play Smash online then, well..I'm getting it. I'm sorry fellas.

I mean yeah, they're basically forcing us to bite the bullet on this one.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm getting the online because I like to play Splatoon. It does suck that we're paying for P2P, but them's the breaks. It's simply a matter of if it's worth it to you or not.

 

[GunBlaze]

Doesn't ROB just fire a laserbeam?

In Smash 4, yes

 

[Noipoi]

Here's all the music we need from Sun and Moon
- Vs. Alola Elite Four
- Vs. Island Guardian
- Vs. Team Skull Boss Guzma
- Vs. Aether President Lusamine
- Apparel Shop
- Royale Avenue
- Vast Poni Canyon

I'm not seeing Gladion or vs Ultra Beast theme, my dude.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's designed... makes no sense Delphox is underwhelming but not because of its a biped its kind of everything else(Like that a huge hang up for people for some reason with like EVERY STARTER). However, you know what's good about it? It's still a fox. Samurott is not an otter its a sea lion... WHY? Why would you turn something that known from using 'tools' which doubles back into using a weapon, actually making sense into something that doesn't even have hands let alone stand? Like Chespin into Chesnaught is kinda of the same thing but done right and you can tell one thing leads into the other. Samurott's line is the ONLY line in the stater families that I can comfortably say has this problem because we've changed animals entirely!

Yep, I had a feeling this would be it. Not saying you're wrong to think so, to each their own.

I personally think Oshawott is very ugly, so I wasn't at all attached to the design. So when I saw an evolution that looked nothing like it I was far more willing to accept it then some people.

 

[Nethermoosen]

What it sounds to me is that this would...kinda disprove the box theory if indeed the SE rep is in base game right??

If anything confirms more than 72 characters, then Box Theory is dead.

But he doesn’t know if the SE character is in base or DLC.

We wait.

 

[Deleted member]

If Switch Online is required to play Smash online then, well..I'm getting it. I'm sorry fellas.

I'm in the same boat. This may be me being so jaded, but honestly, as much as people complain about the Online Service, people will still buy it and no doubt Smash is going to attract a lot of people in. Look at New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe, a dumb minority are still going to complain about it being $59.99, but people are still going to buy it and then they'll go away, just like how they did with DKC: Tropical Freeze, Bayonetta 2, Captain Toad and so forth because "What is a Wii U".

I've kinda lost faith in people when they don't act upon what they're going to say, so this is why I will never pick either side of the Online Service discussion and buy into it, because most people are going to get it anyways.

 

[Starbound]

I'm not seeing Gladion or vs Ultra Beast theme, my dude.

...I didn't like either of those

 

[Idon]

...I didn't like either of those

Don't talk to me or my Gladion ever again

 

[Michele]

This is a goddamn lie and everyone here knows it.

I've played alot of Mario Kart and I have not ever experienced a single disconnect. I'm not lying. I have just recently started posting since days ago and currently I have about 2.4k point.

I

If Switch Online is required to play Smash online then, well..I'm getting it. I'm sorry fellas.

If you don't want to get Switch Online, then you don't have to feel forced to get it. But I'll get it. I'm saying you're not forced to if you don't want to play Smash Online.

 

[Luigi The President]

If anything confirms more than 72 characters, then Box Theory is dead.

But he doesn’t know if the SE character is in base or DLC.

We wait.

Irrelevant but ngl Nether, seems you went super saiyan with this icon change, I'm seeing peak speculation from you my boy

I'm in the same boat. This may be me being so jaded, but honestly, as much as people complain about the Online Service, people will still buy it and no doubt Smash is going to attract a lot of people in. Look at New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe, a dumb minority are still going to complain about it being $59.99, but people are still going to buy it and then they'll go away, just like how they did with DKC: Tropical Freeze, Bayonetta 2, Captain Toad and so forth because "What is a Wii U".

I've kinda lost faith in people when they don't act upon what they're going to say, so this is why I will never pick either side of the Online Service discussion and buy into it, because most people are going to get it anyways.

Yeah of course I'm gonna buy it and complain. That's what we all do with Nintendo!

 

[Pakky]

Yep, I had a feeling this would be it. Not saying you're wrong to think so, to each their own.

I personally think Oshawott is very ugly, so I wasn't at all attached to the design. So when I saw an evolution that looked nothing like it I was far more willing to accept it then some people.

I just find random that a bipedal samurai otter becomes a quadruped sea lion.

Like even Remoraid turning into Octillry makes more sense if you look at their themes as oppose to the animals themselves.

Gun becomes Tank, aka Gun becomes bigger Gun.

 

[Opossum]

You're right.

Samurott is bad at least to me is because well what's good about it?

It's designed... makes no sense Delphox is underwhelming but not because of its a biped its kind of everything else(Like that a huge hang up for people for some reason with like EVERY STARTER). However, you know what's good about it? It's still a fox. Samurott is not an otter its a sea lion... WHY? Why would you turn something that known from using 'tools' which doubles back into using a weapon, actually making sense into something that doesn't even have hands let alone stand? Like Chespin into Chesnaught is kinda of the same thing but done right and you can tell one thing leads into the other. Samurott's line is the ONLY line in the stater families that I can comfortably say has this problem because we've changed animals entirely!

Otherwise:

Its stats are mediocre

Its move pool is good NOW but was eh back in gen 5.

Typing is odd if you're based on a WARRIOR class, why aren't you FIGHTING TYPE? or STEEL?

Its abilities are BAD, and that's where the train stops.

In my 20 some years of playing pokemon after gen 7 one thing became clear, abilities rule everything. If the monster's abilities have little to no use then its most likely bad.

Stats?- Can be boosted by an ability

Typing?- An ability can make it feel like you have three with none of the drawbacks (Dhelmise)

Moves? An ability can make so that the two moves in the monster's pool are all it needs to win whole matches

Chespin to Chesnaught is a chipmunk turning into a glyptodon. Cyndaquil to Typhlosion is a shrew/echidna thing turning into a badger. Chimchar to Infernape goes from ape to monkey. Going from a sea otter to a sealion is hardly the weirdest species change among the starters.

Samurott is legitimately one of the best-designed starters. Also, Samurott for Smash.

 

[Astroworld]

I still don’t know why we haven’t seen :ultrobin and whoever else’s FS yet.

Sakurai said they’d all be straightforward and/or cinematic and I doubt he’d keep Yoshi and Diddy’s since their’s are also “avoid the invincible player for a couple of secs”.

Peach’s is a bit more difficult, it’s technically interrupting with the dancing sequence and the players sleeping who can also be attacked anyway.

Robin’s definitely won’t have Chrom and will likely be replaced with another unplayable FE character.

Lucario’s will most likely bring back his Brawl FS but with Mega Evolution.

Some of them might have spoilers. Robin’s wasn’t shown because it probably doesn’t have Chrom anymore and that would’ve spoiled his reveal.

Luigi’s might have a new poltergust design which might’ve spoiled the Luigi’s Mansion 3 reveal?

Maybe Diddy’s doesn’t use his jet pack and pistols anymore because Dixie is an echo and she doesn’t have them?

All just speculation though

 

[DraginHikari]

Frankly playing online is my main way of playing Smash with others, same with most online games so I'll probably still end up purchasing the service either way.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

This is a flawed leak though. The OP doesn't have a triptag to imply it was him. It could have been anyone who posted the second piece of info

I've discussed this before, but it's near impossible for the second piece of info not to be OP given the time between the two posts. Dude had a Word document with everything on it open and copy-pasted the information to 4chan.

He's implying that box theory MIGHT be wrong, because he believes this rep is happening 100%. So it either confirms one thing or the other:

1. This rep is base game and the box theory is wrong.

2. This rep is DLC, which confirms DLC for the game.

Vergeben doesn't necessarily believe the rep is happening 100%. He believes his source which is telling him about the Square Enix rep, but is unsure of it.

If there's one thing to read from Vergeben's statement, I'd say that DLC is happening, and that even if Box Theory is the launch roster, there's still hope for a lot of characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah of course I'm gonna buy it and complain. That's what we all do with Nintendo!

I think the good thing about this is that the Online Service is the only "big problem" with the Switch, and thank GOD that it's the only prevalent issue. If you ask me, I feel as if the Switch is the "Second GameCube Era" where we get amazing games, but there are of course some problems (miniature CD formatting, no real Online, etc.). Not as prevalent as the Wii or Wii U, thankfully, but problems that can be handled in the near future.
Of course, the difference is that the Switch is selling more than the GameCube, but the point still stands lol.