Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dukeofdeath5]

There was like a decade were there was no new anime or manga... But like yearly dragon ball games.

And that doesn't change the fact that when people think Goku they don't think "Oh, Goku, from the video games!"

Honestly how is this even an argument? I get people want Goku but they should be arguing that he's big enough to be an exception not something that actually fits.

Based on what is happening in the past days I can definitely say...

Isabelle didn’t do anything for the speculation scene at all, lmao. Ridley and Daisy made waves, Simon and King K. Rool made waves, but we only talked about Isabelle for a couple of hours before switching the topic.

Honestly that should've been expected. A vergeben character got revealed, ****ing ground breaking amirite

 

[Ultinarok]

No it cannot change. Just like Shrek will never change. Or Spongebob. I'd wager more people on this earth know who Mickey Mouse is and have no clue who Goku is... Still Mickey Mouse will never be in...just like Goku. It isn't happening in any realistic timeline.

We'll live to see Waluigi in before Goku.

Indeed we may. And for the record, I don't feel Goku is a necessary addition to Smash at all. But people should be allowed to want him. The reason I keep bringing up Geno in this example is that the character would have no chance whatsoever on his own merits. Yet sheer fan devotion has put him in the spotlight to the point where even Sakurai has had to acknowledge it. Fan demand alone, because that is literally the entirety of Geno's push. If he gets in, its because enough people asked for it.

There's one person and his team alone that can decide what a "realistic timeline" is. And that's Sakurai and Sora. And if he decides to flip the table and re-write the rules and add Goku, he will. Period. No one but him decides that. And as long as a human being is capable of agency and autonomy and has the power to decide something, that thing becomes theoretically possible. Thus, no matter how unlikely it is, why not humor the possibility and throw his fans a bone?

If Sakurai was a robot who was hardwired to obey his own pre-set rules, we could all say with certainty that Goku, a breech of said rules, is impossible. But he's not.

I used to think Cloud was impossible. Didn't even consider or speculate him because it was so farfetched. And now here we are.

Let people want, who they want. I want Dixie, Sephiroth, Tiki, Isaac, Banjo, Black Knight. Will I see any of them? Maybe not. Doesn't mean I can't hope. Stop trying to stomp all over people who hope for Goku. Not just you, but everyone.

 

[Exalt4747]

Dang, from boxes to Goku.

Anyway, thank y'all for liking my Guzma/Golisopod moveset from earlier! I had to change my avatar to reflect how much I enjoyed putting that together.

Has there been any new word on Vergeben since Isabelle was announced?

Call me impatient, but I'd really like some more news rip.

 

[Noipoi]

I wonder if Pokemon will get two more reps.

Who's as big as Inceniroar? Actually I mean, not to be inflammatory but ya'know.

I guess Zeraora or someone from 8th?

I only see us getting two Pokemon if we get Incineroar (or whoever) in the base roster and a gen 8 Pokemon as dlc.

 

[staindgrey]

The problem lies in what your definition of a video game character actually is.

If what's really making the point a stalemate here is semantics, then you can just as easily say "Characters who did not originate from a video game should not be in smash" if it makes this honestly pointless argument end easier.

Because despite his frequent appearances, Goku is not iconic due to his video games.

You're absolutely right that videogames are not the driving force behind him being iconic. But I'd still say it isn't semantics at all when games starring Goku have sold over 48 million copies, and Dragonball FighterZ set a record for peak viewers at EVO this year. He started as a manga character, and will forever be defined as one, but much like Mickey, Superman and Sonic, he's become a multimedia character that could easily be defined as a manga/anime/movie/video game character for multiple uses. Arguing whether or not Goku can be in Smash is a far different discussion than, say, putting Himura Kenshin in. Yeah, that guy's been in a videogames too, but he's not an international icon starring in nearly fifty videogames.

Debates are healthy and open people to new ideas. I wouldn't dismiss it as "pointless" anymore than debating the merits of Geno, Corrin or anyone else that often becomes a topic here.

 

[Murlough]

It's funny to me that the main arguments against Goku are either entirely emotionally or "Sakurai said only video game characters." I can respect the second one because its fair. Personal feelings aren't.

You getting upset at Goku fans wanting their character is equal to people lashing out at people who wanted Waluigi, Isabelle, or anyone else. The action and intent are the same. You are being a ****. It doesn't matter how stupid you feel his inclusion would be.

Double-standards man. "Its only ok to bully people when I feel like its ok." If it's Waluigi? "Nope they are entitled to their opinion." Are Isabelle fans able to be attacked since she isn't Isaac? "Nah, just be cool about it." What about Goku fans? "Lmao lets add Shrek while we are at it your character doesn't deserve to be in Smash."

I don't know how I can explain whats wrong with that any better. I don't want Goku. That doesn't mean I'm gonna call Goku fans a bunch of memers who want to "corrupt" Smash with Anime or whatever. You can dislike something while being civil about it and respecting others.

Also, Shrek is still a very different beast than Goku. So is Mickey Mouse. If anything is a meme its those garbage comparisons.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I'm glad that the box theory has begun to die down but......

Every time someone pleasures the idea of Goku being in Smash, part of me dies inside.

The box will reassure that Goku isn’t in. Worry not. The box is here for you.

Just kidding.

Drinking was a bad idea.

 

[Luigi The President]

It's funny to me that the main arguments against Goku are either entirely emotionally or "Sakurai said only video game characters." I can respect the second one because its fair. Personal feelings aren't.

You getting upset at Goku fans wanting their character is equal to people lashing out at people who wanted Waluigi, Isabelle, or anyone else. The action and intent are the same. You are being a ****. It doesn't matter how stupid you feel his inclusion would be.

Double-standards man. "Its only ok to bully people when I feel like its ok." If it's Waluigi? "Nope they are entitled to their opinion." Are Isabelle fans able to be attacked since she isn't Isaac? "Nah, just be cool about it." What about Goku fans? "Lmao lets add Shrek while we are at it your character doesn't deserve to be in Smash."

I don't know how I can explain whats wrong with that any better. I don't want Goku. That doesn't mean I'm gonna call Goku fans a bunch of memers who want to "corrupt" Smash with Anime or whatever. You can dislike something while being civil about it and respecting others.

Also, Shrek is still a very different beast than Goku. So is Mickey Mouse. If anything is a meme its those garbage comparisons.

Throwing out Mickey Mouse doesn't feel fair to me. Can you explain why that's a garbage comparison?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Made a line-up of characters consisting of third-party characters from worldwide popular franchises out of pure boredom. Ignoring the unrealistic size of the 3rd party roster, how would guys react if this was the final third-party line-up, assuming that all 18 of these get gradually added from base game to DLC?

 

[AugustusB]

I only see us getting two Pokemon if we get Incineroar (or whoever) in the base roster and a gen 8 Pokemon as dlc.

.....I didn't say that?! Did I see a glitch in the system?

 

[BlueMagician]

Isabelle probably didn't add to speculation because most of the ground has been covered with Chrom.
"Oh, you can have an echo fighter that's slightly different"
"Oh, you can have a unique fighter that's slightly similar"

At least from that angle there's not much to talk about.

 

[Pakky]

.....I didn't say that?! Did I see a glitch in the system?

It was me who said it :D.

So that's weird.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm honestly sick to death of all these Goku discussions.
I'm gonna go add Isabelle to my avatar, call me when we're talking about boxes again.

 

[Untouch]

Do we even know that box render is official?
Like, the smash bros site only links to Gamestop and BestBuy which doesn't have the render up, only Amazon has the box up.

 

[Noipoi]

.....I didn't say that?! Did I see a glitch in the system?

...You just discovered a glitch in the Matrix...

 

[Ultinarok]

I bought DBZF in the first week. DBZ is a childhood favorite. I genuinely love that anime. I was not trying to be passive-aggressive with my post. So I apologize if I came off that way, but seriously, I just knew that whatever I said would spark some sort of mini flame war with my comment and felt the best course of action would simply be to wish you luck, which I genuinely meant.

Believe me. I get how Goku supporters feel, albeit just a bit. I'm a Paper Mario supporter. I hear "he's another Mario" all the time. I'd honestly love Goku in Smash. That's why I chose not to voice my own opinion on the issue.

Hope it wasn't upsetting, because I really, really did not mean it that way. I'm not exactly the best with picking up on when I can come across as passive-aggressive, and I seriously apologize.

I apologize for my reaction as well. I do not disagree with Goku's fatal weakness. Make no mistake. I just also know that there's literally no harm in people wanting him. Why should anyone (and I don't mean you specifically) try to shut supporters down with the same tired argument? Everyone who likes Goku knows what holds him back. And they still hope that Sakurai will change his mind.

Until the day comes when Sakurai can no longer deviate his thoughts or self-imposed rules, nothing is technically impossible. I'm not on the Goku train, but I'm rooting for them, no matter how steep the climb. And we all should too, instead of reminding them that their dream is dead in the water.

Does that make sense?

 

[Murlough]

What discussions are people not sick of lmao. Every single time there is a subject change people complain about it.

If anyone has something they wanna talk about be my guest. I'm more than happy to move on.

 

[Momotsuki]

I'm honestly sick to death of all these Goku discussions.
I'm gonna go add Isabelle to my avatar, call me when we're talking about boxes again.

Good... good... let the adorableness flow through you...

 

[mynameisBlade]

It's funny to me that the main arguments against Goku are either entirely emotionally or "Sakurai said only video game characters." I can respect the second one because its fair. Personal feelings aren't.

You getting upset at Goku fans wanting their character is equal to people lashing out at people who wanted Waluigi, Isabelle, or anyone else. The action and intent are the same. You are being a ****. It doesn't matter how stupid you feel his inclusion would be.

Double-standards man. "Its only ok to bully people when I feel like its ok." If it's Waluigi? "Nope they are entitled to their opinion." Are Isabelle fans able to be attacked since she isn't Isaac? "Nah, just be cool about it." What about Goku fans? "Lmao lets add Shrek while we are at it your character doesn't deserve to be in Smash."

I don't know how I can explain whats wrong with that any better. I don't want Goku. That doesn't mean I'm gonna call Goku fans a bunch of memers who want to "corrupt" Smash with Anime or whatever. You can dislike something while being civil about it and respecting others.

Also, Shrek is still a very different beast than Goku. So is Mickey Mouse. If anything is a meme its those garbage comparisons.

Being a realist will detract some and attract others. Certainly not upset. Goku is important, but as far as we know wanting him as much as humanly possible won't change anything. Go ahead and want for no reason. Its a free country. =) Super Smash Flash 2 does have him included for such outlandish desires though.

I do agree with the notion that everyone should want whoever they desire, but some of us should also be able to point out how much effort and time is being wasted on what will never come to fruition if its as much of a long shot as this.

If Goku ever got in..I'd end up being okay with it. I just can't mention his name without saying how it will never happen lol. Apologies if my text seems overly assertive.

 

[SquashiniKun]

Ugh, are we seriously talking about Goku, AGAIN!? Is this like, what, the 10th time we had a discussion about Goku being in smash?

 

[Luigi The President]

I apologize for my reaction as well. I do not disagree with Goku's fatal weakness. Make no mistake. I just also know that there's literally no harm in people wanting him. Why should anyone (and I don't mean you specifically) try to shut supporters down with the same tired argument? Everyone who likes Goku knows what holds him back. And they still hope that Sakurai will change his mind.

Until the day comes when Sakurai can no longer deviate his thoughts or self-imposed rules, nothing is technically impossible. I'm not on the Goku train, but I'm rooting for them, no matter how steep the climb. And we all should too, instead of reminding them that their dream is dead in the water.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, they're...definitely underdogs. I've come to respect them in a weird way.
Makes total sense. I know from experience people putting down your character choices over and over again can really suck. So, I try to give all a fair chance if they really support their choice.

What discussions are people not sick of lmao. Every single time there is a subject change people complain about it.

If anyone has something they wanna talk about be my guest. I'm more than happy to move on.

Dang dude, you seem a bit pessimistic about this thread...can't blame you though.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I'm honestly sick to death of all these Goku discussions.
I'm gonna go add Isabelle to my avatar, call me when we're talking about boxes again.

I’ll discuss liver with you if that’s what you want.
I have nothing to be doing right now.

Boxes are cool, I guess. They contain stuff. And that’s pretty neat.

Joking aside. We know this is just the cycle until more big news hits. That’s why I appreciated the boxart’s appeal to objective logic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Kind of becoming accepting of the box theory because, with next year being the 20th anniversary of Smash, the DLC of Ultimate will probably be nuts anyways so at worst some fanbases will have blue balls for a couple of extra months. It's honestly not the worst thing either because the speculation cycle for this game will still be less than Brawl and SSB4's even if they drag out DLC for a year like last time.

 

[Deleted member]

Quick question. Batman has 40 games to himself over multiple platofrms over the last 20+ years, has appeared in at least 16 other games where he wasn't the main character, and has starred in 12 mobile games.

Is Batman a videogame character?

I'll answer for those of you who would actually ponder this.

The answer is no.

No he is not.

Batman is a Comic book character. No matter how many games he's in; no matter how many times he's been on any given console. Batman is a Comic Book character. Not a Movie character, not a Videogame Character.

The same goes for Goku. I can't believe this is even debatable. This 'debate' is Gamefaqs levels of stupid.

If you want to argue that Sakurai may not always adhere to his 'video game only' character rule, fine. He's violated what he's wanted to do for Smash before and it's definitely possible he could eventually lift that restriction eventually.

But to argue that Goku has a chance because he's a game character is wrong; this is not an opinion, this is fact: GOKU IS NOT A VIDEO GAME CHARACTER. He is a Manga character who has multiple anime series, movies, and games devoted to him.

 

[Tailisu10]

Made a line-up of characters consisting of third-party characters from worldwide popular franchises out of pure boredom. Ignoring the unrealistic size of the 3rd party roster, how would guys react if this was the final third-party line-up, assuming that all 18 of these get gradually added from base game to DLC?

View attachment 164557

Lloyd, Leon and Sora? Hot damn, I'm sold.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Just because some character starred in a bunch of games doesn't mean they're a videogame character, much less that their franchise is a gaming one.
Goku was conceptualized in Dragon Ball, a manga. No amount of games will change that fact. DB games aren't original creations for gaming, they're licensed games.
People like to mention Lucario debutted in Mystery of Mew but it's from Pokemon, a franchise that no matter how popular the anime is, was still created as a game and so was Lucario in design.
ROB is not in a game either but it was still created with gaming in mind and its use was for gaming. Goku was clearly not designed with that intention. It's less that characters that debutted outside of games won't make it in but rather that non-gaming FRANCHISES won't be represented.

Wow. Clear, concise, magnificient. 10/10.

 

[Slavic]

it's wild that we don't like political-adjacent discussions here because they are way less intense than Goku discussions

all the characters I want in don't seem likely to be put in any time soon, so honestly I don't really feel too strongly in competition for any characters right now. I would say Goku's pretty bottom on my list of wanting characters in since I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball, but I basically just don't care either way. I will say if an outside media character did get in Smash, Goku would probably be the top of that list.

 

[Astroworld]

Goku is an awful character from an awful series and isn’t even originally a video game character

keep him far away from Smash

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

You're absolutely right that videogames are not the driving force behind him being iconic. But I'd still say it isn't semantics at all when games starring Goku have sold over 48 million copies, and Dragonball FighterZ set a record for peak viewers at EVO this year. He started as a manga character, and will forever be defined as one, but much like Mickey, Superman and Sonic, he's become a multimedia character that could easily be defined as a manga/anime/movie/video game character for multiple uses. Arguing whether or not Goku can be in Smash is a far different discussion than, say, putting Himura Kenshin in. Yeah, that guy's been in a videogames too, but he's not an international icon starring in nearly fifty videogames.

Debates are healthy and open people to new ideas. I wouldn't dismiss it as "pointless" anymore than debating the merits of Geno, Corrin or anyone else that often becomes a topic here.

If you want to argue that Goku is a big enough character that he should be given a shot at Smash despite his origins, I'll give you he's certainly one of the few big enough to be given that privilege.

But I would then argue that no, he shouldn't be put into the game. People are allowed to want him, I'm allowed to tell them that's a stupid idea. I literally have no problem with any random character getting in, as long as the Smash team/Nintendo/Sakurai actually keep a bit of integrity and stick to what the franchise was actually supposed to be at its core. A celebration of gaming. Not a celebration of multimedia characters who get celebrated more than often enough in their own original mediums.

Goku in Smash, as huge as that would be, is by far the biggest shark jump Nintendo could pull.

And if it ever happens, I'd genuinely loose respect for them for doing it.

Again, I get why people want the character, I get why he's so close to so many hearts, I don't even dislike him, I love me some DBFighterz, but it's still a stupid idea.

 

[RandomAce]

It's the box.
IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THE BOX.

or maybe it's because we're spoiled .

Okay... I’m going to be dead honest.

When I first saw Isabelle during the last segment, this sums up my feelings...

I really wanted someone like a Gen 7 Pokemon or someone like Isaac to get a definitive answer to some of our long talked discussions.

Isabelle wasn’t a charcater I cared for, but added to the fact that we’re still discussing about the same old discussions as “who is the Gen 7 Pokémon Rep?” or “Is Isaac/Geno/Whatever Ballot Charcater actually in?” is why I didn’t like her being revealed.

I grew to like her, but I just wanted an answer to some to the months of heated debates, especially the Gen 7 Pokémon as we talked about it to DEATH. Isabelle didn’t
do much to give a more clearer answer to what the roster actually is and was side-lined because of that. Seeing how we went to discuss a box theory, which although gave us an interesting hypothetical scenario to consider and was interesting to talk and learn about, was discussed longer than her.

Although, a lot of her fans are probably still estatic and are just playing the waiting game to actually play her.

 

[Glaciacott]

So, given the whole box stuff... I actually wouldn't be surprised if we got a smash direct in october as the last major Smash direct to reveal all characters. That way all marketing assets can be up to date and go full force in november for Black Friday and holiday sales.
This would also be good timing to try to suggest a demo. If I were in Nintendo, my evil idea would be to have a Smash Ultimate demo be one of the "mystery" incentives for people who sign up to Nintendo Online.

Then in December pre-release they hint at post-game content to further drive sales for the holidays.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah, I don't think this has been brought up but...
The Smash Bundle releases on November 2nd and it has the mural art in its back, which means it WILL have all characters in it. Now why is this important? Because it means our final reveal needs to be before that, and it can't even be early November(as in, November 1st) as these things will be getting shipped before that.
Conclusion: we'll be getting the final reveal in October as it NEEDS to be in order to not get leaked.
And if all we have is final Smash presentation(since it's too early for another general Direct), then it's really likely it's just Incineroar and Ken(and maybe Verge's Square rep, likely Geno, as I think one unique would be odd after 8/8)

 

[kylexv]

I'm gone for a day and I miss 50 pages.

What did I miss?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If it is the case I'm incline to believe VergeBen's claim. Incineroar would be fighter 69 and Geno (Or any other SE rep) would be fighter 70. Not including echos rounds out to 70 unique fighters.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

To bring up an interesting game.

Do you have any Smash related amiibo? If yes do you plan on doing some early character unlocks or are you going to do them the old fashioned way?

 

[Ultinarok]

I'm gone for a day and I miss 50 pages.

What did I miss?

Your profile picture is outstanding. And just talk about boxes, then Goku came up again. Standars fare.

 

[Zinith]

To bring up an interesting game.

Do you have any Smash related amiibo? If yes do you plan on doing some early character unlocks or are you going to do them the old fashioned way?

I literally only have amiibos of my boi lol

But even if I had other amiibos, I'd still do it the old-fashioned way...

 

[Untouch]

Also the special edition is the only smash bros related item with an ESRB rating on it right now...
And it has a different description than the actual official amazon listing for the game with some weird grammatical errors.

It also doesn't have the same warranty info, even though the controller listing does...
I might be losing my mind but this is VERY fishy.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

To bring up an interesting game.

Do you have any Smash related amiibo? If yes do you plan on doing some early character unlocks or are you going to do them the old fashioned way?

Gonna get a Switch down the road and this game as well. As for amiibos. I intend to especially get Ridley and K. Rool. Also Bowser, Duck Hunt, King Dedede and Rosalina & Luma if I can find them.

 

[Icedragonadam]

it's wild that we don't like political-adjacent discussions here because they are way less intense than Goku discussions

all the characters I want in don't seem likely to be put in any time soon, so honestly I don't really feel too strongly in competition for any characters right now. I would say Goku's pretty bottom on my list of wanting characters in since I'm not a fan of Dragon Ball, but I basically just don't care either way. I will say if an outside media character did get in Smash, Goku would probably be the top of that list.

Talking politics online always amounts to complete firestorms. Look at Twitter.

And I don't why know Goku is being brought up. He's literally impossible to be in.