Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Momotsuki]

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

 

[staindgrey]

To be fair, X was the first character to be revealed for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite

Granted, his reveal was one of, like, 4 things that went well for that game.

But not Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Which is even more hilarious than vanilla MvC3.

 

[Chrono.]

To be fair, X was the first character to be revealed for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.

Granted, his reveal was one of, like, 4 things that went well for that game.

That was well after Inafune and Capcom had moved on though.

Not to mention Mighty No 9 and Red Ash being the disasters that they were lol.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Kinda sorta. I'm just saying factually you can't prove a character "deserves" anything. "Mr. Video Game," as luxurious as the title is, doesn't change the fundamental subjectivity of the word "deserves." I'm being a stickler I know but people need to stop using that word as if its an actual point against a character.

Obviously, without Mario Smash wouldn't even be a thing most likely. That doesn't mean we can change the way "deserve" works.

Luxurious sure...but nobody can claim/own the name like Mario Jumpman Mario has (not even Pac-Man gets to have that name), and No Mario = No Current Nintendo or Gaming in general cause it would’ve been dead so yeah Mario definitely gets an exception when it comes to deserving things...but he was still a dumb*** for leaving Pauline

To be fair, X was the first character to be revealed for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite

Granted, his reveal was one of, like, 4 things that went well for that game.

Years too late...and after Nintendo made sure Mega Man wasn’t Mega Dead

 

[Luigi The President]

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

I mean, not like the Wii Fit series was one of the highest selling on the Wii, ever.

 

[BlueMagician]

I don't really want to egg-on the Goku discussion any further but he also never decided what he constituted as a Video Game Character. Maybe he only meant that characters who were almost never in video games. People kinda just assume he meant origin, which maybe he did but I'd need to see the quote, too.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070328190054/http://www.smashbros.com/jp/toukou/bn/no3.html

マンガキャラの参戦は、ありえません。(きっぱり)

"The joining of manga characters is impossible. (Definitively)."

 

[SmashChu]

I think at this point, It's a Creeper Assist trophy. We already have a final stage count.

Not so sure about that one. Take a look at the stage list. It's 11 spaces long, and the last row only has 5. It wouldn't make sense to use this set up with only 103 stages. 104 is divisible by 13 which would have made an even box. Brawl and Smash 4 tried to make the stage list symmetric. Even if they had to use 11x10, why did they not try to space out the bottom two rows. This is what they did for the roster of Smash 4. I don't see why they would do this for Ultimate. I feel like there are more stages then what they are talking about.

EDIT: to add, they could take two from the 9th row and add it to the bottom row to make it symmetric. So it would be 11, 9 and then 7. The fact they aren't doing this makes me think there are more stages.

 

[Pakky]

To be fair, X was the first character to be revealed for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.

Granted, his reveal was one of, like, 4 things that went well for that game.

Ya'know what's funny about marvel?

You see how shallow the pool is when Spiderman and X-men aren't really parts of the picture.

Venom as DLC? Why?

No Wolverine, you were asking for trouble from the start.

And Disney dictated the Capcom characters or had some heavy hand in their side of the roster.

Cuz like where's Felicia?

 

[StormC]

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

Ice Climbers is probably a better example.

If an RPG or platformer series sold over 40 million units like Wii Fit did you can bet Smash fans would be clamoring for their inclusion.

 

[monadoboy]

@ Everyone who is against Goku's inclusion because he is a manga character, what about Geralt from the Witcher? He's certainly widely recognized as a video game character, but he's from literature.

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

I agree, but the Wii Fit series is huge and fits the usual "deserving" arguments.

 

[Ultinarok]

It's not arbitrary, though. Sakurai has made it a point several times that he draws the lines at non-video game stuff.

The rule isn't, but the fear of losing "purity" isn't. Some rules can be bent if there's sufficient reason, and Sakurai makes the rules; he can bend or even break them if he wants.

Specifying "video game characters only" could mean " x had to be created specifically for a game" or it could mean "x has to be a character that appears extensively in gaming and isn't based on a real person." Goku would not meet the former definition, but he would meet the latter.

Goku is still Japanese. He's still intellectual property. He's still a fictional creation not based on a real person. He's still appeared in many, many games on Nintendo systems. He's still owned by a game-developing company that is working on Smash, so licensing issues are nearly non-existent. He's insanely iconic. He's popular as hell. He's known around the world. He's in the public consciousness due to his new and successful games and his new anime series. Moreover, Pikachu and Jiggs, although gaming characters, got in Smash because of their impact in an anime first and foremost. Goku is also a fighter who would translate perfectly into Smash.

So if "he was made for manga/anime" is the only thing holding him back, then why is it so outrageous for people to support him? I'll tell you one thing right now that will piss off a lot of people, but is a fact.

Goku is about 1,000 times more of a big deal than characters like Geno. Remember that.

 

[praline]

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

Wii Fit sold like crazy so it’s not that surprising that they got representation.

 

[staindgrey]

That was well after Inafune and Capcom had moved on though.

Not to mention Mighty No 9 and Red Ash being the disasters that they were lol.

Don't forget he had a big hand in ReCore, which, even though I personally liked it, was a pretty big flop.

 

[Luigi The President]

@ Everyone who is against Goku's inclusion because he is a manga character, what about Geralt from the Witcher? He's certainly widely recognized as a video game character, but he's from literature.



I agree, but the Wii Fit series is huge and fits the usual "deserving" arguments.

No difference. Geralt shouldn't be in this game if he doesn't originate from a video game. I've never seen a single person ask for Geralt in Smash seriously beyond a simple pipe dream.

 

[Pakky]

The rule isn't, but the fear of losing "purity" isn't. Some rules can be bent if there's sufficient reason, and Sakurai makes the rules; he can bend or even break them if he wants.

Specifying "video game characters only" could mean " x had to be created specifically for a game" or it could mean "x has to be a character that appears extensively in gaming and isn't based on a real person." Goku would not meet the former definition, but he would meet the latter.

Goku is still Japanese. He's still intellectual property. He's still a fictional creation not based on a real person. He's still appeared in many, many games on Nintendo systems. He's still owned by a game-developing company that is working on Smash, so licensing issues are nearly non-existent. He's insanely iconic. He's popular as hell. He's known around the world. He's in the public consciousness due to his new and successful games and his new anime series. Moreover, Pikachu and Jiggs, although gaming characters, got in Smash because of their impact in an anime first and foremost. Goku is also a fighter who would translate perfectly into Smash.

So if "he was made for manga/anime" is the only thing holding him back, then why is it so outrageous for people to support him? I'll tell you one thing right now that will piss off a lot of people, but is a fact.

Goku is about 1,000 times more of a big deal than characters like Geno. Remember that.

Here's a fact too though. Geno is a video game character and has representation in smash already. So... yeah.

 

[Murlough]

https://web.archive.org/web/20070328190054/http://www.smashbros.com/jp/toukou/bn/no3.html



"The joining of manga characters is impossible. (Definitively)."

He didn't define manga character. Goku is almost as much a video game character as Sonic, as far as I'm concerned. Sonic has several anime and had at least two manga adaptations. Dragon Ball has released a comparable number of games and had a few manga and anime adaptations.

So, I'm supposed to believe, that origin is the big difference blocking off the two? Seems so arbitrary it might as well not exist. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape about the subject. Anime hate I guess? I got no clue.

FYI you quoting me only makes me continue. The balls in your park. I'm just playing along.

 

[NintenZ]

Oh wait there is something the Isabelle reveal changed.

Tom Nook got the Chrom treatment in this game.

 

[Luigi The President]

Y'all are unbelievable we are really out here debating Goku AGAIN literally days after we got Isabelle in this game and a piping hot new theory

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Anime hate I guess? I got no clue.

Oi I don't even hate anime to begin with. My Hero Academia, InuYasha and Black Lagoon are my top three favorite ones.

 

[Blargg888]

Wii Fit Trainer is absolute proof that a character doesn't need to deserve a darn thing to be in Smash. Case. Closed.

I don't disagree that the "deserve" argument is a bit misguided, but honestly, that's a pretty terrible example.

Wii Fit sold about 18 Million copies in the first two years of its release, 22 Million by 2012, and is the 6th best selling Wii game ever.

 

[Murlough]

Luxurious sure...but nobody can claim/own the name like Mario Jumpman Mario has (not even Pac-Man gets to have that name), and No Mario = No Current Nintendo or Gaming in general cause it would’ve been dead so yeah Mario definitely gets an exception when it comes to deserving things...but he was still a dumb*** for leaving Pauline

Years too late...and after Nintendo made sure Mega Man wasn’t Mega Dead

I agree......but "deserve" is still technically a subjective thing, regardless of you or my own thoughts or feelings. Even if every human on the planet had the same opinion on something it would not ever become a fact. That's just how subjectivity works.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

When Sakurai says "these characters are impossible", he isn't saying his opinion on them being deserving. He means they cannot happen. Probably for licensing. Don't read into it more than that, otherwise you're inferring something he didn't say. There's a small chance he doesn't like the ideas, but nothing conclusive. Also, the ballot wasn't even Sakurai's idea. He may not have much to do with how it's set up questionaire-wise. We don't know, being Iwata thought it up.

We know that not everything is "Sakurai's idea" to begin with. He isn't the only reason Dark Pit became an Echo. The team also thought up ideas for it. They're the ones who convinced him to put in Corrin. Even though Sakurai says something, doesn't mean he doesn't have a team who has other ideas. He's the director but his opinion isn't unswayable. Yes, he's stubborn, but not that stubborn. He added stage hazard toggle after all.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Goku is one of the coolest characters ever created in media. DBZ is my favorite anime of all time, and yet I still want Goku as far away from Smash as possible. It will never happen regardless.

 

[praline]

Oh wait there is something the Isabelle reveal changed.

Tom Nook got the Chrom treatment in this game.

How? Tom Nook was already shown in Villager’s final smash. Why would anyone have thought he could have been playable?

 

[NintenZ]

How? Tom Nook was already shown in Villager’s final smash. Why would anyone have thought he could have been playable?

It was a joke because his non-playable status was joked about briefly at the end of Isabelle's trailer.

May he rest in peace.

 

[Zinith]

"Oh wonderful. The box debate has died down. I wonder what new conversation will--"

*Goku*

"..............................so about those boxes."

 

[staindgrey]

Oi I don't even hate anime to begin with. My Hero Academia, InuYasha and Black Lagoon are my top three favorite ones.

Ah man, Black Lagoon is so good.

I suddenly feel like watching it again. Thank you for reminding me of it.

 

[StormC]

He didn't define manga character. Goku is almost as much a video game character as Sonic, as far as I'm concerned. Sonic has several anime and had at least two manga adaptations. Dragon Ball has released a comparable number of games and had a few manga and anime adaptations.

So, I'm supposed to believe, that origin is the big difference blocking off the two? Seems so arbitrary it might as well not exist. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape about the subject. Anime hate I guess? I got no clue.

FYI you quoting me only makes me continue. The balls in your park. I'm just playing along.

I'm probably the single biggest Dragon Ball fan on this website. I have the limited edition Dragon Box DVD on my shelf. I've met both the English and Japanese actors for Goku. I went to the red carpet world premiere of Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F.'

Goku still doesn't qualify to be in Smash because he is a manga character. (Obviously.)

 

[ErenJager]

Goku's reveal trailer is Goku using the Dragon Balls to wish himself as a video game character.

 

[Murlough]

Oi I don't even hate anime to begin with. My Hero Academia, InuYasha and Black Lagoon are my top three favorite ones.

Yeah, the idea didn't make sense to me either but when you look at the two and compare them whats the difference? Origin. That's all it is! How can origin be the thing that riles people up so bad? I don't get it but whatever. Realistically Goku will never be in Smash and I couldn't care less anyway.

I'm mostly just having fun with the argument at this point.

And My Hero is amazing. Haven't liked a Shonen Jump anime in a while but that ones alright.

 

[NintenZ]

I'm glad that the box theory has begun to die down but......

Every time someone pleasures the idea of Goku being in Smash, part of me dies inside.

 

[Untouch]

I hope if Eldrick or Crono get in they have a yellow hair orange shirt costume just for the salt.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

DaybreakHorizon , any decent rumors lately? Any rumors that mentioned Isabelle as a non-echo before her reveal?

Nope. Just the Dante leak, but, wait for it:

tHe DAnTe leAK wAS a LUckY gUeSs

So, again, no.

 

[Exalt4747]

"Oh wonderful. The box debate has died down. I wonder what new conversation will--"

*Goku*

"..............................so about those boxes."

I came up with a joke earlier where I was going to yell that box and Vergeben can both be consistent because SNAKE IS IN THE BOX, but unforunately, he had to be on the side we can see.

 

[Ultinarok]

Here's a fact too though. Geno is a video game character and has representation in smash already. So... yeah.

You kind of dodged every single thing I said to beat the same long-dead horse that everyone's been saying the whole time, but that's fine I suppose.

The point is that its ok to support Goku. There's one controversial thing that holds back Goku. There's several that hold back Geno. If people can rave about Geno all day long, they should also be allowed to want Goku and discuss him. End of. There's no reason everyone should be giving Goku supporters or fans hell about this.

 

[Union of Darkness]

He didn't define manga character.

Goku is a manga character. This is an objective fact and can't really be disputed.

 

[praline]

I think the non video game characters not being in Smash is more cause the licensing hoops they’d have to go through are too much of a hassle.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Ah man, Black Lagoon is so good.

I suddenly feel like watching it again. Thank you for reminding me of it.

Ha ha! No problem. Glad I unintentionally helped.

 

[Murlough]

Goku is a manga character. This is an objective fact and can't really be disputed.

Well, no ****. I didn't try arguing otherwise. I'm saying he also could be considering a video game character. You can be more than one classification you know?

 

[BlueMagician]

He didn't define manga character. Goku is almost as much a video game character as Sonic, as far as I'm concerned. Sonic has several anime and had at least two manga adaptations. Dragon Ball has released a comparable number of games and had a few manga and anime adaptations.

So, I'm supposed to believe, that origin is the big difference blocking off the two? Seems so arbitrary it might as well not exist. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape about the subject. Anime hate I guess? I got no clue.

FYI you quoting me only makes me continue. The balls in your park. I'm just playing along.

I realize you don't seem to think it explains anything, but he definitely makes a distinction between video game characters and manga characters. Don't you notice that in itself is important?

Anyway, other people have made a more direct answer to your questions (that you haven't acknowledged), I was just adding on.