Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

So would that even include characters like Shrek or Spongebob if you really want to get down to it?

Sure why not?

Oh Bah Gawd

"Deserve" isn't really a word we need to use.

I'd argue Dark Pit doesn't "deserve" to be in, but he is, and he has fans. I'd even argue Cloud doesn't "deserve" to be in a game dedicated to Nintendo's history, but he's also in and I assume the majority of the fanbase disagrees with me.

There's no clear outline of rules for who's in and who's out. It just comes down to who was available, who Sakurai liked, and what the time/budget constraints were at the time. If Sakurai wants Goku in and the various companies that own his rights want him in, what's stopping them from putting him in after Clou'ds inclusion? The fact that he doesn't deserve it?

There is one character who deserved to be in Smash...

 

[staindgrey]

Difference is they're at least video game characters. Yes Dragon Ball has a video game series but fact remains Goku is an anime/manga character and Sakurai said "Video Game characters only".

He also said Ridley was too big and he couldn't put any character in without significant Nintendo history. (Also I don't remember Sakurai saying "videogame characters only", would you care to find the quote?)

Regardless, I don't even want Goku in. I'm just tired of people arbitrarily throwing the word "deserve" around like their personal ruleset is an actual ruleset followed by Sakurai and his team. It's not. My idea of a Smash roster ruleset would see probably seven or eight current characters never get in. But that's why I'm not Sakurai.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

He also said Ridley was too big and he couldn't put any character in without significant Nintendo history. (Also I don't remember Sakurai saying "videogame characters only", would you care to find the quote?)

Regardless, I don't even want Goku in. I'm just tired of people arbitrarily throwing the word "deserve" around like their personal ruleset is an actual ruleset followed by Sakurai and his team. It's not. My idea of a Smash roster ruleset would see probably seven or eight current characters never get in. But that's why I'm not Sakurai.

Also a video game character. Stop comparing video game characters to non-video game characters. It's not even comparable.

 

[Murlough]

Oh Bah Gawd

There is one character who deserved to be in Smash...

Prove it.

 

[SmashChu]

The only characters I would entertain beating K. Rool on the ballot are veterans or perhaps a third-party like Banjo-Kazooie. Considering that diehard fans were voting over and over and over and over (I know people who have claimed to have voted hundreds of times), there is 0 doubt in my mind K. Rool was the most voted Nintendo newcomer on the ballot. Sakurai wouldn't pick some old and forgotten video game boss that hasn't been in the mainstream for ~20 years if it wasn't for him crushing the ballot, or as Sakurai said in his own words, "received a ton of votes."

This goes double if K. Rool is somehow the only unique ballot newcomer in the base game.

I expect the character who won was a veteran, either Snake, Wolf or the IC. Given they made a big deal about Snake, it may have been him. My thought is the whole "Hey all the characters are back" was due to fans asking for the older fighters. K. Rool probably beat out most other characters besides maybe Ridley. Shovel Knight did well too I'm sure.

 

[staindgrey]

There is one character who deserved to be in Smash...

There's one character who deserved to be in MvC3:

They still managed to screw that up somehow.

Also a video game character. Stop comparing video game characters to non-video game characters. It's not even comparable.

I'm not comparing characters. I'm comparing your assertion that Sakurai never changes his mind to two times where he very clearly changed his mind.

Also where's that quote.

 

[Starbound]

In a way, I think it's really cool now with the third party characters being, generally, more hype than the remaining list of first-party characters.

Granted, there's always going to be some exceptions but the trend is changing.

Outside of ARMS and Xenoblade 2, I wouldn't be surprised if every DLC reveal was a third party character.

 

[KMDP]

Prove it.

Mario is "Mr. Video Game".

(I know you're joking).

 

[BKupa666]

I edited the post to direct people, you can read about it in the K Rool thread "How the Fans Brought Back K Rool". I believe BKupa666 found it and got it from a reputable source. The details are included in the intro to the thread.

This is the thread.

Two quick things I'll clarify, since I didn't personally get the lion's share of the info. It was not fully explained to Hyle, the person who did, what "finalized" means in terms of the ballot, and Bayonetta being a "predictive" addition. Could technically mean before the ballot opened, or before most of the votes were in. People like Omega Tyrant with datamining knowledge have indicated the work needed to set up the ZSS placeholder file, in place two weeks in to the ballot, basically guarantees work started on Bayo before the ballot opened, though I suppose skeptics or fans could read into this that "they saw she was so far ahead in the early votes they went ahead and added her," as they've been doing.

The other thing is, Sakurai "calling dibs" is colloquial wording that wasn't my own. I couldn't say whether Sakurai actually had some deep investment in K. Rool to where he requested being the one to revive him first. But ultimately it was decided, and enforced by Nintendo, that Smash would be the platform for his grand return.

 

[Idon]

There's one character who deserved to be in MvC3:

They still managed to screw that up somehow.

If I remember correctly, basically Capcom and Inafune had a lot of angst against each other during that era, and they decided to spite him, they'd use Zero to represent Megaman instead of, like, Megaman.

 

[praline]

In a way, I think it's really cool now with the third party characters being, generally, more hype than the remaining list of first-party characters.

Granted, there's always going to be some exceptions but the trend is changing.

Outside of ARMS and Xenoblade 2, I wouldn't be surprised if every DLC reveal was a third party character.

An ARMS rep would be the least hype dlc choice at this point.

 

[Ultinarok]

Also a video game character. Stop comparing video game characters to non-video game characters. It's not even comparable.

It is though. Both are forms of fictional intellectual property. If Goku had first appeared in a game before being in a manga, but was otherwise exactly the same, everyone would clamor for him. If Goku had never been in a video game, that'd be one thing. But he's been in more Nintendo console video games than 90% of the current roster. And he's owned in his new games by the people who are co-developing Smash.

People are saying Goku is impossible because he betrays the "purity" everyone has arbitrarily placed around Smash, and creates a slippery slope phenomenon that opens many potential cans of worms about who can make it in Smash. Nevermind that Goku's situation is unique and he's an icon that trancends most video games.

I'm not a Goku supporter either. But I see absolutely no problem with him being in, so long as he's a special exception because of his huge significance and Namco-Bandai.

 

[staindgrey]

An ARMS rep would be the least hype dlc choice at this point.

Speak for yourself. I'd be hype as ****.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

It is though. Both are forms of fictional intellectual property. If Goku had first appeared in a game before being in a manga, but was otherwise exactly the same, everyone would clamor for him. If Goku had never been in a video game, that'd be one thing. But he's been in more Nintendo console video games than 90% of the current roster. And he's owned in his new games by the people who are co-developing Smash.

People are saying Goku is impossible because he betrays the "purity" everyone has arbitrarily placed around Smash, and creates a slippery slope phenomenon that opens many potential cans of worms about who can make it in Smash. Nevermind that Goku's situation is unique and he's an icon that trancends most video games.

I'm not a Goku supporter either. But I see absolutely no problem with him being in, so long as he's a special exception because of his huge significance and Namco-Bandai.

I still think he's a ridiculous choice never the less but that's understandable I suppose.

 

[StormC]

He also said Ridley was too big and he couldn't put any character in without significant Nintendo history. (Also I don't remember Sakurai saying "videogame characters only", would you care to find the quote?)

Regardless, I don't even want Goku in. I'm just tired of people arbitrarily throwing the word "deserve" around like their personal ruleset is an actual ruleset followed by Sakurai and his team. It's not. My idea of a Smash roster ruleset would see probably seven or eight current characters never get in. But that's why I'm not Sakurai.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._banner.png/revision/latest?cb=20150404021522

Fighter ballot said only video game characters. That's just one example.

 

[Pakky]

I'm not a Goku supporter either. But I see absolutely no problem with him being in, so long as he's a special exception because of his huge significance and Namco-Bandai.

The line of video game characters is far too vast before Goku would even be thought of. The whole cast of Tekken would get into Smash before Goku.

 

[praline]

Speak for yourself. I'd be hype as ****.

Err... what do you think I was doing?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Prove it.

Mr. Video Game Himself, can possess /“capture” living things, has played nearly every sport out there...and foolishly left Pauline for

There's one character who deserved to be in MvC3:

They still managed to screw that up somehow.

Ah the dark days of Mega Man being dead (no mega puns needed)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._banner.png/revision/latest?cb=20150404021522

Fighter ballot said only video game characters. That's just one example.

Whelp there goes Goku then.

 

[Exalt4747]

Speak for yourself. I'd be hype as ****.

Depends on the character for me.

 

[SvartWolf]

We can speculate that it isn't true, but we haven't seen the actual results. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Isabelle won over K.rool, for example. The only character we know comes from the ballot is Bayo. The likes of Isabelle, Ridley, Waluigi, Toad, and/or veterans could've easily won over K.rool.

While i agree with your observations , and certainly agree that people were sleeping in isabelle popularity, big time, I think you are underselling K.Rool..
Normally K.rool wouldn't be too different than Isaac or Geno... but K.rool by most tallies of sites that concentrate the hardcore smash community K.rool in general did stand out usually by a wide gap.

What does this means? it means that even if hardcore fans could have divided opinions regarding super popular picks like Geno or Isaac, or another Zelda Rep, they usually agreed into K.rool...

And there there was Youtube where every famous youtuber and their dogs (and cats) started making videos regarding top ten characters in smash... i do think that the prevalence of that videos managed to actually influence the non hardcore fanbase (at least regarding k rool)
Just as an example i was talking the past week with a friend who doesn't own a single nintendo system and barely have played nintendo games (yet he always have a certain degree of interest to play smash) to the point hat he didn't even knew that smash ultimate was a thing. but he managed to remember that a character was announced (he likely though that it was dlc for the previous game) at which point i asked if he remembered who it was... was the dragon? (obviously he didin't knew jack about ridley) the barbarian? the croc? and yeah, he managed to recognize that the croc from DK series was the one announced.

Youtube is kinda a powerful tool this days. and is more likely that infulenced lots of younger players that likely won't know who the hell K.rool was otherwise. While thsi may be true also for geno and banjo kazooie, i don't think it managed to get to teh point of K.rool, which actually made posible for people taht didn't grew up witha nes to recognize him...

So yeah i do think that K rool did very well on the ballot (along Isabelle, Inklings, and the cut veterans) so it was clear to me that Krool was in. and if you ask me, yeah, certainly this game seems to be representing the ballot wonderfully, even if the data recopiled on the smash hardcore sites may have discrepancies...

BTW: I'm not even a K.rool supporter DX

 

[BlueMagician]

People are saying Goku is impossible because he betrays the "purity" everyone has arbitrarily placed around Smash,.

It's not arbitrary, though. Sakurai has made it a point several times that he draws the lines at non-video game stuff.

 

[staindgrey]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._banner.png/revision/latest?cb=20150404021522

Fighter ballot said only video game characters. That's just one example.

Alright, but do you have an example of Sakurai saying it, since there are other examples?

Again, I don't even want Goku in. I'm genuinely curious if this has ever been said by the game's director, because I've never seen it myself.

 

[Murlough]

I don't really want to egg-on the Goku discussion any further but he also never decided what he constituted as a Video Game Character. Maybe he only meant that characters who were almost never in video games. People kinda just assume he meant origin, which maybe he did but I'd need to see the quote, too.

At this point, there may have been more DragonBall games than Sonic games for all I know. I know FighterZ exploded if Evo is anything to go by.

There is also the fact that the man is human and fully capable of changing his mind.

Keep in mind. I'm not asking what YOU think about Smash or what YOU think he meant. I'm just stating the case for the character is all. Like it or not, if ANY non-videogame originating character ever got in it would be Goku. Does that mean he is even close to likely? Hell no and I'm not arguing he is.

I'm just sayin' there are legitimate arguments for it and legitimate fans of the character and honestly, I'm sick of seeing them berated about it. The whole "meme" thing needs to stop. Just because you don't like or agree with it doesn't mean its just "a meme." Their character wants are every bit as real as yours.

 

[Pakky]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net..._banner.png/revision/latest?cb=20150404021522

Fighter ballot said only video game characters. That's just one example.

Spicy...

 

[Luigi The President]

Dog I just want Paper Mario in lol

 

[Garteam]

If we assume Ken and Inceniroar are the last characters left to be revealed who do you think are the 5 most likely DLC characters.

To make this more interesting you can't say Rex/Pyra or Springman, because I imagine almost everyone is going to bring them up.

Geno, Banjo-Kazooie, Bandana Dee, Isaac, and Skull Kid.

It's kinda hard to predict Smash Ultimate DLC, because the most obvious candidates (cut veterans) are already in the game.

 

[StormC]

Alright, but do you have an example of Sakurai saying it, since there are other examples?

Again, I don't even want Goku in. I'm genuinely curious if this has ever been said by the game's director, because I've never seen it myself.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/

“Manga characters will not join the battle (obviously)."

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Ummm... are we in a Goku debate again? Could've sworn this happened a week ago... allow me to lend some support on the matter, Goku is a Manga character Not a Video Game Character. There, Problem solved. Meeting Adjourned

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Oh god what had I started...

Well if that's the case then.

*Gets snacks and sits down to watch the show*

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It is though. Both are forms of fictional intellectual property. If Goku had first appeared in a game before being in a manga, but was otherwise exactly the same, everyone would clamor for him. If Goku had never been in a video game, that'd be one thing. But he's been in more Nintendo console video games than 90% of the current roster. And he's owned in his new games by the people who are co-developing Smash.

People are saying Goku is impossible because he betrays the "purity" everyone has arbitrarily placed around Smash, and creates a slippery slope phenomenon that opens many potential cans of worms about who can make it in Smash. Nevermind that Goku's situation is unique and he's an icon that trancends most video games.

I'm not a Goku supporter either. But I see absolutely no problem with him being in, so long as he's a special exception because of his huge significance and Namco-Bandai.

He's a huge cultural icon. And has huge gaming history. The only things stopping it is Sakurai would prefer he not get in(which is subjective too on his part, and there's nothing wrong with his opinion on it) and licensing is quite hard to work with. It'd definitely make the game sell way better regardless.

Plus, licensed video games are very important to gaming history. Take E.T. for example. Bad game, right? Well, it was playable enough considering the budget and development time. It actually was partially responsible for the gaming crash in the 1980's. That's a huge important piece in gaming history as is. Though it was more just they printed too many copies, so they had to dump some. The Atari Pac-Man port was actually significantly more horrid(as it ported badly with tons of glitches and such) and also was buried, moreso because it was bad, not simply too many copies made.

Gaming history doesn't mean "originate in a video game series". It's not something Sakurai specifically said alone. He actually specified that Mii Fighters were intentionally created to give you the ability to play characters who are unfeasible for Smash, and has expressed zero distaste towards actual non-game 3rd parties. There is nothing to suggest it's some pride thing. It's not what he talked about. He isn't playing some "it must strictly be about game characters only". If that was the case, he'd never make references to the Pokemon anime, being Ash specifically. He doesn't even mention Red at all, yet his anime counterpart is important enough to do so. These hang-ups that he hates non-game characters and thus won't put 'em in is a bad theory that needs to really be struck down for good. He doesn't hate them, and never did. It's not a pride thing. It's a licensing factor. He has implied he cares more about representing game franchises first, but that's kind of it.

 

[Murlough]

Mario is "Mr. Video Game".

(I know you're joking).

Mr. Video Game Himself, can possess /“capture” living things, has played nearly every sport out there...and foolishly left Pauline for

Ah the dark days of Mega Man being dead (no mega puns needed)

Kinda sorta. I'm just saying factually you can't prove a character "deserves" anything. "Mr. Video Game," as luxurious as the title is, doesn't change the fundamental subjectivity of the word "deserves." I'm being a stickler I know but people need to stop using that word as if its an actual point against a character.

Obviously, without Mario Smash wouldn't even be a thing most likely. That doesn't mean we can change the way "deserve" works.

 

[staindgrey]

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/10/05/sakuraithirdparty/

“Manga characters will not join the battle (obviously)."

Thank you. That's what I was asking for.

The fact that it was said in 2015-- the same timeframe when he said Ridley was too big to fit-- still lends credence to the idea that Sakurai can change his mind. But now I know he actually said it. That means he could still stick to that. (And I personally hope he does.)

 

[Murlough]

Ummm... are we in a Goku debate again? Could've sworn this happened a week ago... allow me to lend some support on the matter, Goku is a Manga character Not a Video Game Character. There, Problem solved. Meeting Adjourned

Thank you no one has brought up the point in the history of ever. Lets all go back to the box discussion.

*Erhem* "YOU ARE A BOXER OR NOT A BOXER THAT IS ALL."

 

[Heracr055]

It's better than being in an unironic Shrek debate.
Also in b4 Darren Shan for Smash with Harkat echo

 

[Luigi The President]

It's better than being in an unironic Shrek debate.
Also in b4 Darren Shan for Smash with Harkat echo

To be fair Shrek's one of the biggest CGI movies of all time.

Heh...better than boxes.

 

[Misery Brick]

It is though. Both are forms of fictional intellectual property. If Goku had first appeared in a game before being in a manga, but was otherwise exactly the same, everyone would clamor for him. If Goku had never been in a video game, that'd be one thing. But he's been in more Nintendo console video games than 90% of the current roster. And he's owned in his new games by the people who are co-developing Smash.

People are saying Goku is impossible because he betrays the "purity" everyone has arbitrarily placed around Smash, and creates a slippery slope phenomenon that opens many potential cans of worms about who can make it in Smash. Nevermind that Goku's situation is unique and he's an icon that trancends most video games.

I'm not a Goku supporter either. But I see absolutely no problem with him being in, so long as he's a special exception because of his huge significance and Namco-Bandai.

That's not even an arbitrary rule that fans have put on the series, that's literally one enforced by Sakurai himself.
Even the ballot said "a character that originates in a video game" which immediately disqualified characters from other mediums.
Anyway, this is something that's gone on record for mods to say to drop as it's off-topic.

 

[Garteam]

There's one character who deserved to be in MvC3:

They still managed to screw that up somehow.

To be fair, X was the first character to be revealed for Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.

Granted, his reveal was one of, like, 4 things that went well for that game.

 

[Blargg888]

Why introduce a concept and add so few?

We already have 4 new Echo Fighters for 6 total.

Sure, it's not the largest number ever, but it's still a good amount for a game that was said to have "Not as many newcomers".

I'm not comparing characters. I'm comparing your assertion that Sakurai never changes his mind to two times where he very clearly changed his mind.

Also where's that quote.

I'm not sure if Sakurai ever said that "Non-video game characters are impossible", but he did say this:

Sakurai: But, you know I get requests like, “Please put Goku in”
Sugita: GOKU!?
Sakurai: “Please put Spongebob”
Sugita: SPONGEBOB?!
Sakurai: That’s impossible.
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/22/mewtwo-dlc-takamaru-and-sakurais-nico-nico-appearance/

I know Sakurai can and has change(d) his mind, but until he does once more, this is all we've got to go on.

 

[Murlough]

It's better than being in an unironic Shrek debate.
Also in b4 Darren Shan for Smash with Harkat echo

Theres a pretty significant difference between one of the most iconic characters of all time (who has tons of games btw) and goddamn Darren Shawn.

That comparison is worse than Goku to video game characters.

Unless somebody quotes me I'm gonna stop with this discussion now. As I said, I don't care for it either.