Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Noipoi]

alright now that we finally received our direct let's speculate about the next one and get even thirstier

Next Direct is February 31st 2067. Calling it now.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm kinda doubtful about there being enough information left to fill two 30 to 40 minute Directs. The way I see it, assuming there's 2, maybe 3 more uniques and a handful of Echos alongside an explanation on whatever Spirits is, one more 35 minute Direct should be plenty to cover all that. Other things like online, Games and More, and the Vault would really only need maybe 10 minutes tops to explain all of that if they rapid-fire like they did in August.

Plus, I just don't buy a Direct happening in late November. Nintendo has been doing their best to keep leaks to a minimum and reveal things in a timely manner. I just don't see them going that close to release when pre-load data mining is gonna ruin everything anyway.

That's just me, though, and there's every possibility that I'm wrong and they do go that long. I really hope they don't, though. Leaks just take the fun out of these things.

 

[ZephyrZ]

On the topic of fantasy I'd like to say that even if it seems paradoxical to some people, I believe a certain degree of realism actually enhances fantasy. When I want to escape into a world I want to be immersed in it, and that means the writers and artists will have to work to convince me it's real. Part of the reason I can't stand Fate's writing is that it doubles down on the power fantasy of previous FEs but suffers too much from the point of believability that it shatters my suspension of disbelief and I can't take it seriously.

But as foe how this relates to Smash Brothers? I don't actually ask much of this game because it doesn't want me to take it seriously from a writing or narrative point of view. It's just meant to be dumb fun. Meanwhile, even though I don't play Tomb Raider, I can totally see why it'd want you to take it more seriously. The fantasy it provides is a little more grounded and down to earth then Smash Bros or even Fire Emblem.

 

[Luigi The President]

Fellas, reminder that Sakurai doesn't care for having neat and round numbers for a final roster if that's why you think he'll have 80 or 70 or whatever characters.

 

[Misery Brick]

Lara Croft is an Icon in the West and that's about it. Japan sees her as more of a fashion model then an adventurer, likely due to seeing her in ads more then playing the games.
She also had a fall from grace like Crash and Spyro and only recently is coming back into the spotlight..but not to anywhere near the degree of popularity she once had. Beyond that, reboot Lara isn't the iconic one, the 90s/00s one is.

However, I mostly meant in regards to fan demand. Fact is there are very few people that actually want Lara Croft in Super Smash Bros. Square Enix has a ton of characters with more fan demand then Lara has, and more popularity if you consider the massive popularity of Dragon Quest in Japan.

Not helping her case is that Sakurai likes to converse with the character's creator or handler, which is why no Western IPs are in as playable characters, and the team behind Lara's games are Western, even if the parent company is Japanese.

Lara may be a popular character and a past Icon, but I do not believe most people would love her inclusion over so many other wanted characters even from just SE alone.

The argument you made was that they would have pleased more people.
Lara Croft would objectively please more people given she's such a bigger character than them. I mean after all, this is the same community that was bewildered with Daisy's and Isabelle's inclusion. Yet, the majority of Nintendo fans and the general audience are happy that they are both in the game.
In no way would I use the Smash community as a basis for popularity.
Regardless of Lara's status in Japan, which even there, she's still highly recognizable compared to someone like Isaac or Geno.
Also something to note, those characters may be popular in Smash speculation but it doesn't actually equate to worldwide popularity. I mean even Super Mario RPG didn't even release in Europe and not to mention, Geno is just a side character on top of that.
After all, they're only tossed around in terms of Smash speculation, not in terms of popular characters or in terms of third parties or Nintendo franchises.

While, yes, I see more people name someone like Neku or Tifa over her. She still has undeniable popularity and iconography, no matter what incarnation she's in.
It's like arguing that Red in Smash isn't iconic due to him not appearing as his RBY appearance as opposed to his FRLG one.
Lara Croft is just undeniably more popular and recognizable.

 

[StormC]

Sonic plus Tails as a semiclone and Shadow as an echo would make for a nice representation for the Sonic franchise with Knux as an assist and if Eggman's a boss, do ya think?

2 Sonic newcomers in one game would be sorta excessive even if one is a semi-clone and one is an echo. But I'm an Eggman supporter so what do I know.

 

[Chrono.]

So the Tails vs Shadow wars have begun anew have they?

I think both are good choices personally as a second Sonic person for different reasons.

Imagine this, what if Tails gets the Isabelle treatment while Shadow is an Echo but with the Mewtwo recovery/teleport effects and whatever other flare

Or even the other way around. Both have quite a bit of evidence for inclusion at this point, that is very hard to refute.

Most fans I've seen are kind of expecting both tbh, no real rivalry.

Your scenario is what I hope/expect myself.

 

[peachy!]

I mean it could happen… last year there was a focused direct on AC and Xenoblade on october and november… unless there is another big game aside of Smash this year, Smash could get reveals on both months. I don't know if something like LGPE could get a focused direct on october tho… who knows

Now that you mention it, a Pokémon LGPE Direct in October would also be a great opportunity to reveal Incineroar, leaving the two/three reveal trailers left for the November Smash Direct.

 

[Nazyrus]

I would prefer more Metal Sonic as an Sonic Echo fighter than Shadow, though I think Shadow is more popular and also maybe we can have another Sonic level with Stardust Speedway from Sonic Mania +, and Metal Sonic can show up as boss hazard.

For the Lara Croft debate we can have a mix of the three Lara Design, Classic, Legends and Reboot.

Glad to see someone else who prefers Metal Sonic! I would be super hype for him, and not hyped at all if it was shadow… but that's just me. Plus Metal sonic is more of a copy (echo) than shadow, shadow is just a fake lol… just kidding, but kinda true…

 

[Zathura]

Fellas, reminder that Sakurai doesn't care for having neat and round numbers for a final roster if that's why you think he'll have 80 or 70 or whatever characters.

EDIT: nvm I can’t read

 

[SquashiniKun]

alright now that we finally received our direct let's speculate about the next one and get even thirstier

Imagine if they had a lone character reveal in Late September/Early to Mid October that also reveals the date of the next info dump, which will be a big pre release info blowout that'll come out sometime in November with not 1, not 2, but 3 reveal newcomer trailers with the reveals of the remaining echo fighters, and a teaser for a hidden unrevealed newcomer.

^^^

 

[Potato_]

I'm kinda doubtful about there being enough information left to fill two 30 to 40 minute Directs. The way I see it, assuming there's 2, maybe 3 more uniques and a handful of Echos alongside an explanation on whatever Spirits is, one more 35 minute Direct should be plenty to cover all that. Other things like online, Games and More, and the Vault would really only need maybe 10 minutes tops to explain all of that if they rapid-fire like they did in August.

Plus, I just don't buy a Direct happening in late November. Nintendo has been doing their best to keep leaks to a minimum and reveal things in a timely manner. I just don't see them going that close to release when pre-load data mining is gonna ruin everything anyway.

That's just me, though, and there's every possibility that I'm wrong and they do go that long. I really hope they don't, though. Leaks just take the fun out of these things.

That's why the popular belief is one trailer in October that MIGHT reveal more than one character (character + echo or something) and then a final direct in November. Either way, that final direct has to happen in order for them to reveal every character before release.

 

[Untouch]

Fellas, reminder that Sakurai doesn't care for having neat and round numbers for a final roster if that's why you think he'll have 80 or 70 or whatever characters.

It's not about being neat and tidy, it's about having enough characters that no one is ever left out in a Smashdown match. Of course there are alternatives though.

 

[Over9000BPM]

I feel like each of the three eras exemplifies the mindset behind female characters at the time. The original is obviously sexualized to high heaven, but is also depicted as more secure, experienced, and knowledgeable than the more recent incarnations, being similar to 90s "smart, strong, sex bombs" of the day, and taking more inspiration from classic heroes like Indiana Jones. I mean she has those round glasses to show you that she's smart or whatever. I would also say she comes off as the oldest of the three, if not by much.

The Legends version takes more inspiration from Angelina Jolie's sexpot incarnation, and is basically rendered as a bimbo who happens to raid tombs. Perfect representation of the PS3/Xbox 360 era of gaming.

And then the most recent one looks like she came out of a Naughty Dog game because I guess that's what we're doing now.

I think the Legends version is actually my favourite. The original version is awesome too, for all the reasons you stated, but sometimes she could be a bit unnecessarily mean and hostile. The Legends version is always friendly, polite and has good intentions, but is still gloriously ruthless when necessary.

 

[Nazyrus]

Now that you mention it, a Pokémon LGPE Direct in October would also be a great opportunity to reveal Incineroar, leaving the two/three reveal trailers left for the November Smash Direct.

That too, yeah

 

[Luigi The President]

It's not about being neat and tidy, it's about having enough characters that no one is ever left out in a Smashdown match. Of course there are alternatives though.

I don't think I understand? Why would people be left out of Smashdown?

 

[SonicMario]

And Shadow was a full-out Assist Trophy. Don't get why it's tipping towards Tails.

There were a couple of Assist Trophies that got Mii costumes as well. Isabelle was one of them. That didn't work out for all like Ashley and Takamaru but they at least kept their Assist roles. Not every Mii costume is going to get an upgrade obviously but a good amount have either 1. Become playable characters (Ex: Isabelle and K. Rool) 2. Became assists if they weren't previously (Ex: Knuckles and Zero) or 3. Kept their assist role (Ex: Ashley and Takamaru). Stuff like the Virtua Fighter characters and Gil obviously aren't going to get much but that's because they're relatively obscure compared to the many other Mii costumes. Tails is not obscure.

Shadow and Knuckles getting both upgraded while Tails gets nothing would look even weirder now. You can maybe argue that Knuckles and Shadow have louder fanbases and more Smash support as of late, but it's not like Tails is UNpopular.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

October: Incineroar (#69), Ken(60e); Little Mac is killed by Incineroar in his reveal

November: Dixie Kong(36e), Geno(#70), Octoling(64e), Shadow(38e)

As far as I'm predicting.

 

[KingIceSonic]

Before they even think about adding Tail or Shadow they should fix two things

1)Sonic's moveset
2)Sonic's lame alt colors

 

[Momotsuki]

Y'know, before yesterday I would have laughed at the idea of Shadow being a unique fighter. But... now I could see that being feasible.

 

[Untouch]

I don't think I understand? Why would people be left out of Smashdown?

If each character is only allowed to be played once, 4 players are playing, and it ends with 2 or 3 characters left, 1 player won't be able to pick a character.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

We could get one smaller Nintendo Direct with a couple reveals, followed by one final Smash Direct that explains Spirits and gives the final reveals.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Fellas, reminder that Sakurai doesn't care for having neat and round numbers for a final roster if that's why you think he'll have 80 or 70 or whatever characters.

Not true.
There is always a method to the madness.

 

[Luigi The President]

There were a couple of Assist Trophies that got Mii costumes as well. Isabelle was one of them. That didn't work out for all like Ashley and Takamaru but they at least kept their Assist roles. Not every Mii costume is going to get an upgrade obviously but a good amount have either 1. Become playable characters (Ex: Isabelle and K. Rool) 2. Became assists if they weren't previously (Ex: Knuckles and Zero) or 3. Kept their assist role (Ex: Ashley and Takamaru). Stuff like the Virtua Fighter characters and Gil obviously aren't going to get much but that's because they're relatively obscure compared to the many other Mii costumes. Tails is not obscure.

Shadow and Knuckles getting both upgraded while Tails gets nothing would look even weirder now. You can maybe argue that Knuckles and Shadow have louder fanbases and more Smash support as of late, but it's not like Tails is UNpopular.

Which is not the point I was arguing. I am a Tails fan. Have been for years. I understand he is not obscure. The point I am making is that an Assist Trophy missing can be seen as a bigger deal then a Mii Costume.
I don't think it'd look weird at all, seeing as Tails could just remain in the background of Green Hill Zone.

Not true.
There is always a method to the madness.

If you disagree point out to me which game has a neat and round number of characters.

 

[Deleted member]

That's why the popular belief is one trailer in October that MIGHT reveal more than one character (character + echo or something) and then a final direct in November. Either way, that final direct has to happen in order for them to reveal every character before release.

My thoughts exactly. I could see the final info dump happening in the first or second week of November, but anything past that seems too late. The game's preload will probably go live around the second-to-third week of November, as most of Nintendo's titles have their preloads up nearly a month before release.

 

[Potato_]

Well, if Nintendo's goal with this Direct smash-wise was to get everyone's expectations lowered it worked.

Everyone's now on the "1-3 uniques" train, and the only echoes I see mentioned anymore are Ken and Shadow.

It's kind of refreshing, cause if they have a lot more up their sleeve we won't expect it.

 

[UberMadman]

Pichu is just a Goomba you can catch.

Kirby is just a Goomba that’s pink.

Olimar is just a Goomba with his own Goombas who are plants.

Bowser is just a Goomba in disguise.

And if you are what you eat, then Yoshi is just a Goomba in general.

Anyway, can we talk about my most wanted newcomer for Smash?

 

[T-Hell]

October: Incineroar, Ken(E); Little Mac is killed by Incineroar in his reveal

November: Dixie Kong(E), Geno, Octoling(E), Shadow(E)

As far as I'm predicting.

Not to confront your prediction, but there's no way the next Smash Direct isn't starting AND ending with a non-echo. I would add another one with Geno.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

October: Incineroar, Ken(E); Little Mac is killed by Incineroar in his reveal

November: Dixie Kong(E), Geno, Octoling(E), Shadow(E)

As far as I'm predicting.

October: Incineroar in Pokemon Direct
November: Elma, Ken(E), Shadow(E), Dixie Kong(E), and Geno in Final Smash Direct

 

[Iridium]

Y'know, before yesterday I would have laughed at the idea of Shadow being a unique fighter. But... now I could see that being feasible.

I mean, Sakurai could still treat him like he does Chrom, or give him very different animations to Sonic, like Isabelle. I'm honestly fine with what we get.

Anyway, what made you doubt Shadow could be unique?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Tbh I don’t think Incineroar and Ken will be revealed in the same trailer. Any multiple newcomer reveals, echo or otherwise, I feel must be from the same series. It’s how it’s been with Lucina/Robin and Charizard/Greninja. And of course Simon/Richter.

They can show VETERANS from another series in said trailers like how Captain Falcon was in the first example I mentioned, Olimar in the second and Luigi in the third. But again they’re just that: veterans.

 

[Over9000BPM]

On the topic of fantasy I'd like to say that even if it seems paradoxical to some people, I believe a certain degree of realism actually enhances fantasy. When I want to escape into a world I want to be immersed in it, and that means the writers and artists will have to work to convince me it's real. Part of the reason I can't stand Fate's writing is that it doubles down on the power fantasy of previous FEs but suffers too much from the point of believability that it shatters my suspension of disbelief and I can't take it seriously.

But as foe how this relates to Smash Brothers? I don't actually ask much of this game because it doesn't want me to take it seriously from a writing or narrative point of view. It's just meant to be dumb fun. Meanwhile, even though I don't play Tomb Raider, I can totally see why it'd want you to take it more seriously. The fantasy it provides is a little more grounded and down to earth then Smash Bros or even Fire Emblem.

Trust me, a one-woman army with a great rack is FAR from being the most unrealistic thing that happens in Tomb Raider OR Metroid

 

[Momotsuki]

I mean, Sakurai could still treat him like he does Chrom, or give him very different animations to Sonic, like Isabelle. I'm honestly fine with what we get.

Anyway, what made you doubt Shadow could be unique?

I simply figured he'd be a low priority and if he were to get in an echo would be his only shot. I also thought the same about Isabelle, my most wanted. I'm glad to be wrong, and now I'm not so closed to the idea of a unique Shadow.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Not to confront your prediction, but there's no way the next Smash Direct isn't starting AND ending with a non-echo. I would add another one with Geno.

Geno honestly though would make a lot of sense to reveal last as this surprise. He can easily top K. Rool and Ridley in terms of hype.

 

[Nethermoosen]

If each character is only allowed to be played once, 4 players are playing, and it ends with 2 or 3 characters left, 1 player won't be able to pick a character.

I guess DLC will come out at 12 characters per update. Otherwise, that plan goes to crap.
If something must be divisible by both 3 and 4, then it must be divisible by 12.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Thing is I just got a feeling someone will be killed in the next reveal and that's Little Mac considering his fighting status and also why I think Ken would be revealed alongside Incineroar.

 

[Zathura]

Geno honestly though would make a lot of sense to reveal last as this surprise. He can easily top K. Rool and Ridley in terms of hype.

Idk about that, Ridley was definitely the most wanted by far for a long time, although I guess you could say he no is more hype because he isn’t as likely

 

[T-Hell]

Geno honestly though would make a lot of sense to reveal last as this surprise. He can easily top K. Rool and Ridley in terms of hype.

I know, I'm not saying he wouldn't be revealed in the next Smash Direct, what I'm saying is you only got him as an unique for that Direct, and I have a hard time thinking he would not reveal 2 uniques there, one at the start and another one to finish it, just like in August. Because echoes just get introduced kind of in the middle of the thing, you know? So say, Isaac at the start and Geno at the end, for example.

 

[Chrono.]

Man, this is like that "UPGRADE" button meme that was popular a year ago.

 

[Meritocracy]

Y'know, before yesterday I would have laughed at the idea of Shadow being a unique fighter. But... now I could see that being feasible.

He easily* could be a unique fighter, (give him a gun?) but he can do all the things sonic does, and because of Ultimate's production schedule with putting the most effort into bringing back other characters, and Echo is more feasible
*you might have a little trouble, but it wouldn't be too hard