Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Blargg888]

Sakurai will put in a newcomer

But it has to be a character that starts with the letter of your first name. Who is it?

My name starts with Q so I'm screwed. Q from Street Fighter or the F-Zero one I guess

LET’S GO.
Chandelure time baby!

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I actually never asked this before but I remember just now.

This question is for Charizard mains out there. Are you upset that Charizard is back being tied to Pokemon tranier? Just curious

I really don't like losing Rock Smash nor having an actual 4th special move in general, and it's going to be really annoying having to switch back to Zard on the revival platform whenever I die. I additionally don't like playing Squirtle and Ivysaur at all, and I've made it quite known that I have absolutely no faith in the Pokemon Trainer gimmick actually being practical to utilize over just playing the character you're best with for the matchup, so being tied back to the Pokemon Trainer is nothing but a negative to me. I understand though the necessity of it for the "Everyone is Here!" thing, and I have at least 9 other characters that I will be actively looking at for potential mains, while it's pretty unlikely Zard would actually end up one of my best characters and thus be a character I will actually main competitively, so in the end it's not a big loss for me.

 

[Handy Man]

Like, I get it, you wanted your character, and wanted your character to be alone. I just find the "importance" thing to be kinda ridiculous.

For me and Charizard, I see it as a loyality thing. He's by far my favorite Pokémon, that's what made maining him feel like so much fun to me. Adding him back to the trainer and being tied to Squirtle and Ivysaur takes away that loyality to me. I know not everyone feels the same, and more people seem to like the trainer than not, but I personally feel like it's a "betrayal" of sorts. To work so hard on your favorite character and no one else, only for the reasons you liked to use that character being taken away before your very eyes. This hasn't happened to any other character, just Charizard, and I feel so unlucky about it. With that said, I've been very loyal about wanting King K. Rool as well, and I plan on channeling that passion towards the kremling king, my new main for Ultimate.

Feel free to agree or disagree with me, just putting this out there. I just think loyality in maining a character is very important to me; I'll only use a character if I truly care about who they are, what they mean to me as a player, and how much I enjoy playing as them. I can say that about Charizard and King K. Rool, but not the Pokémon Trainer. I know others may not care about loyality as much and prefer maining five or more characters, but maining only one character that I truly care about means a lot more to me. That's just me though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We are working on a constantly evolving basis of what an echo is. They are poorly defined.
Clones are not defined at all and are a fan made term.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I also won't take anyone else's opinion on the matter as much more than an opinion, given how the idea of 'echo' seems to be altered with each new one we get.

Clones are not a fan-made term at all. Sakurai has directly told us that clones exist, using assets of other characters. They aren't even ill-defined, as we know they can have vast differences. Melee's first 6 clones were directly told to us by him. Same with 4's, it's just that only one was a regular clone, and the other two were actually Echoes, but not given the official name(but still applied the current information we know of them as well).

Every Echo so far has had the same weight, almost no differences in height or reach with their limbs proper(they have been given sometimes a unique weapon difference to further separate, but that's pretty rare. Same with lots of different new models to make them feel more accurate to the character), identical proportions, nearly identical moves(with at best animation changes, and Chrom is the one time with a truly unique move beyond the Final Smash, and that's still clearly not that unique, being a redux of Ike's Aether with a new animation to further fit the character). They have no severe change at any point where you can play them beyond heavily different from the original.

Clones always have had bigger differences. There's no way around the fact that Clones and Echoes are two official terms. I agree they aren't as hard defined as they should be, and that's due to a lack of information. So far, the rest has remained true. It doesn't mean things cannot change. Echo could be the new clone and we'll never see a new regular clone again. They might have a bit more than we thought, as Chrom already showed they can have a bit more unique animations for a moveset, or use a move from someone else besides the exact base(though in this case, Ike, Roy, and Chrom have extremely similar builds, making it really easy to rerig the animation and hitboxes, etc. for an altered move, meaning it doesn't really prove at all that Echoes can have any remotely extreme difference from their base, something a clone absolutely can have. We know there's a tiny exception with animations and Final Smashes, but that's kind of it).

 

[WaxPython]

The Wii Fit trainer and the dog from Duck Hunt got movesets, but the main antagonist of a Zelda game with a powerful magical mask is the one you can't see beating up anyone?

Maybe I didnt word it the best way.
What I meant was those aren't serious villains. I just think Skull kids is more of a magic based character and having pummel people with aerials and punches kinda cheapens him.

While other Zelda villains may be more suited as playable fighters.

Not saying a moveset can't work just idk how suitable it would be to his character

 

[Idon]

Honestly, really disliked that they went back to the transformations, but just for Pokemon Trainer. Now they're going to be a balancing mess and the only thing we'll ever see is Squirtle with the occassional Charizard for recovery in competitive play.
What I would've done is split them up.
Have Charizard pair with Red
Have Squirtle pair with Blue
Have Ivysaur pair with Green
That way, "the Pokemon Trainer" is technically back and so are all the other Pokemon, each with a new input they can use, and individual balancing to suit their needs.

 

[ZephyrZ]

In terms of "spotlight", I'd like to point out that echoes don't get their own "character number". All three of the trainer's Pokemon do.

Tbh, I wouldn't consider Ivysaur to be all that iconic, compard to Squirtle and Charizard atleast. I like the little guy, but if it wasn't for Brawl, nobody would care about him. So him getting some attention is already good for how small his popularity is outside of Smash.

Ivysaur is very iconic simply because it's an evolved form of the extremely iconic Bulbasaur. People recognize it, they just like its other forms better. The same is true for Wartortle and Charmeleon honestly.

That said, I don't think s/he'd have a chance to be in Smash if it weren't for the Pokemon Trainer, so I'm extremely grateful they're here.

 

[CaptainMac]

Sakurai will put in a newcomer

But it has to be a character that starts with the letter of your first name. Who is it?

My name starts with Q so I'm screwed. Q from Street Fighter or the F-Zero one I guess

My name starts with M, so....

Muddy Mole

 

[GunBlaze]

For me and Charizard, I see it as a loyality thing. He's by far my favorite Pokémon, that's what made maining him feel like so much fun to me. Adding him back to the trainer and being tied to Squirtle and Ivysaur takes away that loyality to me. I know not everyone feels the same, and more people seem to like the trainer than not, but I personally feel like it's a "betrayal" of sorts. To work so hard on your favorite character and no one else, only for the reasons you liked to use that character being taken away before your very eyes. This hasn't happened to any other character, just Charizard, and I feel so unlucky about it. With that said, I've been very loyal about wanting King K. Rool as well, and I plan on channeling that passion towards the kremling king, my new main for Ultimate.

Feel free to agree or disagree with me, just putting this out there. I just think loyality in maining a character is very important to me; I'll only use a character if I truly care about who they are, what they mean to me as a player, and how much I enjoy playing as them. I can say that about Charizard and King K. Rool, but not the Pokémon Trainer. I know others may not care about loyality as much and prefer maining five or more characters, but maining only one character that I truly care about means a lot more to me. That's just me though.

Nothing against character loyalty, fam. I've been there and understand what you mean, although not in Smash.

I just really wanted Ivysaur back.

 

[P.Kat]

If I did a list using ALL of the letters in my name, P.Kat would be happy as I have a LOT of "A"s

You bet your Yoshi games I would

Hi everyone what's up? I was playing the new Spiderman game it's amazing! Anything interesting happened while I was gone.

Also, my name starts with T, so my newcomer would be Talim from Soul Caliber.

 

[RandomAce]

I think we should be honest....an Echo is whatever Sakurai deemed, even if in hindsight, he didn’t exactly explain it all to us or maybe hadn’t quite thought through EXACTLY what makes an echo. Not that it matters, because it’s his definition and he can change it as he likes until he gives a full, official explanation.

Well there sort of is.

An echo is a chracater that takes minimal resources to create. Echoes have the same moveset of who their cloning, with minor differences and maybe 1 or 2 different moves as long as those moves can also be easily borrowed from someone else, or easily created (example: Chrom’s FS and Up Special). Echoes also need to have a very similar build to that of who their echoing as well, to port animations a lot more easily.

Echoes can have different taunts, victory poses, and even some animations, however, their stats, moveset, and proportions must be the same of their original. Differences only usually resort to different damage values, kill power, and knockback angles.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly, really disliked that they went back to the transformations, but just for Pokemon Trainer. Now they're going to be a balancing mess and the only thing we'll ever see is Squirtle with the occassional Charizard for recovery in competitive play.
What I would've done is split them up.
Have Charizard pair with Red
Have Squirtle pair with Blue
Have Ivysaur pair with Green
That way, "the Pokemon Trainer" is technically back and so are all the other Pokemon, each with a new input they can use, and individual balancing to suit their needs.

ok that's fair but the switch is a godlike air dodge and you can have have some cool mixup potential with it

 

[WaxPython]

Why Is everyone hating on Pokemon trainer?

If you want to just use Charizard just never switch out lol stamina is no longer a thing.

For the rest of us Pokemon trainer is great for avoiding bad match ups and the switching can be used to get out of being comboed.

 

[Abha]

Sakurai will put in a newcomer

But it has to be a character that starts with the letter of your first name. Who is it?

My name starts with Q so I'm screwed. Q from Street Fighter or the F-Zero one I guess

D so Dillon I guess

 

[PSIGuy]

If they don't have a Charizard mega-evolution as an Echo who regains Rock Smash that'll be a real missed opportunity.

 

[GunBlaze]

Why Is everyone hating on Pokemon trainer?

If you want to just use Charizard just never switch out lol stsmijs is no longer a thing.

For the rest of us pomemkm trainer is great for avoiding bad match ups and the switching can be used to get out of being comboed.

Loss of Rock Smash is too large for Charizard, apparently.

At least some have proposed more personal reasons.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Odd that you consider Boshi a worse addition than BUBSY!!!

No character/game is worse than Bubsy!!!

My name starts with M so... i would go with Mipha.

 

[Glaciacott]

If you still think that Squirtle is the only viable pokemon from Pokemon Trainer you are missing the point of what lack of stamina means for the character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

My choice in this name bandwagon is Gandana Dee

 

[Omega Tyrant]

You guys realize that now that stamina is gone, you could still main Solo Zard and Solo Squirtle, right? It'll just be suboptimal. Besides, it's not like there aren't characters with useless moves out there, even among high tiers. Who uses Sheik's Side Special outside of very rare situations? And Pikachu's Skull Bash is rarely useful even as recovery.

It wouldn't solve the "Pokemon Trainer Wins" nitpick, but it's not like the characters would be so much better on their own. Rock Smash was rarely useful as it was - it was far too hard a commitment to depend on.

Rock Smash is certainly useful and was pretty important, considering in Smash 4 it was pretty much Zard's only good move for getting him out of disadvantage other than an even riskier Fly, while he had a huge hurtbox and poor airspeed that disallowed him from getting out of disadvantage without the aid of such moves. Adjustments in Ultimate could potentially make up for it and give Zard options to get out of disadvantage without Rock Smash, but at least in Smash 4 with no Rock Smash Charizard would have possibly had the worst disadvantage state in the game, so losing that without being sufficiently rebalanced would be a major blow to Charizard's viability.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In terms of "spotlight", I'd like to point out that echoes don't get their own "character number". All three of the trainer's Pokemon do. Ivysaur is very iconic simply because it's an evolved form of the extremely iconic Bulbasaur. People recognize it, they just like its other forms better. The same is true for Wartortle and Charmeleon honestly.

That said, I don't think s/he'd have a chance to be in Smash if it weren't for the Pokemon Trainer, so I'm extremely grateful they're here.

Ivysaur wasn't really chosen because of iconicness(at least not that we can confirm anyway). It was just the last thing there. Blastoise and Charizard were the only ones spoken of. He first went for the latter two. Blastoise wasn't feasible, so he changed it to Squirtle. Then to finish off the trio, Ivysaur was added. The evolution mechanic wasn't entirely a key focus if the information implies anything about the development. In Squirtle's case, it was easier to make fun and balanced. It's likely Venusaur was going to be a thing in general otherwise, but to say the least, Ivysaur is far easier to make work well in the Smash environment.

PT's unique case is that he wanted the character to control multiple Pokemon at the very least. It's not entirely clear when the ideas came up for type weaknesses, stamina, and evolution as the best way to go about it. It's fairly vague on the development itself. Straight facts are given, but not upon exactly what his mechanic was supposed to be(it doesn't even really outright talk about how many Pokemon he wanted PT to control).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sorry guys... the pressure is too much....... I might have to take a little break.............. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of........................... I'm gonna go be cryptic on twitter.............................................

Then we’ll have to force Yupik to give us info through Twitter like any sane Smash fan would do

 

[ZephyrZ]

I can think of a few practical reasons to switch pokemon, especially if the game is as balanced as Smash 4.

Switching to Ivysaur when you get a stock lead could be a good idea because she's ideal for playing defensively and can zone opponents out. Also possibly avoiding early KOs because Squirtle is super light.

Switching to Zard once you get an opponent in the air to start juggling. It's also nice to switch to a character with a kill throw if you have an opponent who likes to shield a lot. Bonus points if you use Ivy's range to condition your opponent to shield.

Switching to Squirtle to get Zard out of nasty juggling situations and to approach enemies who are too defensive.

Rock Smash is certainly useful and was pretty important, considering in Smash 4 it was pretty much Zard's only move for getting out of disadvantage other than an even riskier Fly. Adjustments in Ultimate could potentially make up for it and give Zard options to get out of disadvantage without Rock Smash, but at least in Smash 4 with no Rock Smash Charizard would have possibly had the worst disadvantage state in the game, so losing that without being sufficiently rebalanced would be a major blow to Charizard's viability.

Rock Smash was an occasional mix up to get out of those situations though. It really didn't do much to solve that problem at all. I personally only use that move once or twice per match, if at all. His triple jump is way more important for getting out of those situations.

Ivysaur wasn't really chosen because of iconicness(at least not that we can confirm anyway). It was just the last thing there. Blastoise and Charizard were the only ones spoken of. He first went for the latter two. Blastoise wasn't feasible, so he changed it to Squirtle. Then to finish off the trio, Ivysaur was added. The evolution mechanic wasn't entirely a key focus if the information implies anything about the development. In Squirtle's case, it was easier to make fun and balanced. It's likely Venusaur was going to be a thing in general otherwise, but to say the least, Ivysaur is far easier to make work well in the Smash environment.

Yeah, I know that Ivysaur wasn't chosen for iconicness, but to say that Ivysaur isn't that iconic isn't true either. That's what I was arguing.

 

[WaxPython]

Rock Smash is certainly useful and was pretty important, considering in Smash 4 it was pretty much Zard's only good move for getting him out of disadvantage other than an even riskier Fly, while he had a huge hurtbox and poor airspeed that disallowed him from getting out of disadvantage without the aid of such moves. Adjustments in Ultimate could potentially make up for it and give Zard options to get out of disadvantage without Rock Smash, but at least in Smash 4 with no Rock Smash Charizard would have possibly had the worst disadvantage state in the game, so losing that without being sufficiently rebalanced would be a major blow to Charizard's viability.

Charizard was never competitively viable in smash 4. The switch out mechanic will help Charizard more than rock smash ever could.

Furthermore the new mechanics in smash ultimate such as standardised lnagung lag will help Charizard and put him in a better place than the low tier he was in smash 4.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honestly, really disliked that they went back to the transformations, but just for Pokemon Trainer. Now they're going to be a balancing mess and the only thing we'll ever see is Squirtle with the occassional Charizard for recovery in competitive play.
What I would've done is split them up.
Have Charizard pair with Red
Have Squirtle pair with Blue
Have Ivysaur pair with Green
That way, "the Pokemon Trainer" is technically back and so are all the other Pokemon, each with a new input they can use, and individual balancing to suit their needs.

You're not wrong, they'll probably still be a mess but I still love the concept of the pokemon trainer, nothing else could better represent the pokemon series and it's mechanics, and having the trainer be a part of the battle is so neat, lowkey wish the other pokemon could get a trainer as well.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

lmao at this "But how will Zard get out of disadvantage now?" even after I said he has a like frame 1 dodge with no lag now that also lets him have unique combos and mixups with Squirtle

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Yes but Lucina's attack have the same reach. Villager's punching animation would be considerably shorter in length with Isabelle. However if you just make her arms stretch for that attack I suppose it could work.

Villager punches close to himself (it's a hook, he is not jabbing out and really extending his reach), while the huge boxing glove is what makes the move, Isabelle's slightly shorter arms certainly won't affect the hitboxes of this attack.

 

[Blargg888]

If I could direct you to my avatar, it can be seen that I am quite fond of Pokemon Trainer.
You can find facts ridiculous, but it in no way disputes any of my arguments.

You’re not really using facts though, you’re just using random details about a character’s inclusion to try to justify the fact that you’re salty, even though there’s no reason to be. You’re only using the details that benefit your argument, and ignoring the ones that don’t, which is an inherently flawed way of thinking about things.

No, they inherently dont get as much spotlight. The characters arent even individually labeled on the Smash website.
You know which characters get their own banner, trailers, and promotion? Echo fighters.
These are facts.

For example, PT does have his own trailer, banner, and promotion, which all three Pokémon are included in. And the argument that they don’t have their own making them less important doesn’t work, because for one, it makes complete sense why they wouldn’t have their own trailers. They’re a composite character. Giving them each their own trailer would be confusing and inaccurate. Echoes have their own trailers because they are separate from their base character, not because they are more important.

In reality, an actual example of what you’re talking about is the Mii Fighters. Three different characters that share a single trailer.

Furthermore, arguing that the PT Pokémon are less important than echo fighters because they don’t have things that the echo fighters do is stupid, because the same goes both ways. Echo Fighters don’t have numbers. And aren’t even counted as full characters, whereas Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard clearly are. Furthermore, since PT is now the sole face of the transformation mechanic, that puts even more importance on the Pokémon, which, again, is something echoes don’t have. And that’s not even saying anything about the fact that the three PT Pokémon all have nearly completely unique move sets.

Seriously, it’s like you want to be mad about this, rather than actually being mad about it.

TL;DR: Your “facts” don’t matter because they are both inconclusive, and not all of the “facts”.

 

[Arcadenik]

Sakurai will put in a newcomer

But it has to be a character that starts with the letter of your first name. Who is it?

My name starts with Q so I'm screwed. Q from Street Fighter or the F-Zero one I guess

Oh, lucky me! My name begins with M. Meowth confirmed.

 

[Shroob]

Well, today/tomorrow depending on your time zone.


We'll either get the Direct date..... or we'll have finally lost our marbles completely.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, really disliked that they went back to the transformations, but just for Pokemon Trainer. Now they're going to be a balancing mess and the only thing we'll ever see is Squirtle with the occassional Charizard for recovery in competitive play.
What I would've done is split them up.
Have Charizard pair with Red
Have Squirtle pair with Blue
Have Ivysaur pair with Green
That way, "the Pokemon Trainer" is technically back and so are all the other Pokemon, each with a new input they can use, and individual balancing to suit their needs.

I don't have an issue with having 3 characters named Pokemon Trainer or just sticking with the Pokemon name. But yeah, I like the idea of who to pair them with.

I honestly wish they were separate in 4(Ivysaur would've needed a new recovery due to Tethers being removed for balance reasons in that game), and this feels like a great solution to it. Or at least a neat option. Hmm, but what other Up B to use. Maybe Frenzy Plant or something like that where Ivysaur walks up it like stairs(kind of a similar idea to Waterfall hitbox-wise). Squirtle just needs one more for this, but the question is; what? Well, ignoring Final Smashes, as we have a lot more options for those.

 

[Jetsurge]

Well, today/tomorrow depending on your time zone.


We'll either get the Direct date..... or we'll have finally lost our marbles completely.

If it's not announced by 7am pst there will be WW III

 

[Zinith]

Spoiler: My real name used for potential newcomers

Mike Jones
Isaac
Crash
Henry Fleming
Amaterasu
Elma
Leon (Star Fox)

Darouch
Ashley
Ninten
Exite Biker

Linkle
Alucard
Hector
Nightmare
Agumon
Louie
Amy Rose

 

[Shroob]

If it's not announced by 7am pst there will be WW III

Even though I have full confidence the Direct is coming the 13th...


.....I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to continue seeing the mental decline of everyone.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

All of this hate ...

I've gotta say, I'm beyond stoked he's back with the whole team. I loved the transformation mechanics because it did allow me to switch as the situation required. With Stamina gone, I can choose to either play as a single one or play as the whole team. Each one has a different set of strengths, so the fun part will be to see how to deal with matchups to counter what you need at the time.

You know, kind of like how in the main series Pokémon games, you switch out to get an advantage.

Because of that, I think the trainer and his three mons are actually the most faithful representative of his series. Pika may be a great rep for the anime, but if you try to one-shot everything with just a Pikachu (who's not overlevelled) in the game, you're stuck by Brock's gym since no electric attacks are effective.

It just amazes me how people are so against transformation movesets. I get that balancing around them is a bit tougher, but almost every fighting game has some form of a stance character, which gives a steeper learning curve since you have to learn more than one kit. Maybe it's just because I like the trainer, but it's hard for me to hear people complain about him without me hearing "But learning more than one moveset is haaaaaard! I'd much rather have one extrememly-situational special move than being able to mixup my attacks and get the jump on my opponents!"

Still, I would prefer that got their own stock icons and had their names announced. After all, they're the ones doing the work.

 

[osby]

Spoiler: My real name used for potential newcomers

Mike Jones
Isaac
Crash
Henry Fleming
Amaterasu
Elma
Leon (Star Fox)

Darouch
Ashley
Ninten
Exite Biker

Linkle
Alucard
Hector
Nightmare
Agumon
Louie
Amy Rose

Nice choises overall. I wish I could do this, as well.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Pokémon Trainer as a concept has been improved vastly in Ultimate, he actually looks like decent fun now. I will however admit that I would have prefered the Pokémon went solo, Ivysaur I'd have loved to play alone as it's from my favorite Pokémon family, and I'm not a huge fan of Squirtle and Charizard's movesets, but now it'll just feel like you're being wasteful going with only one of them, not to mention it's a hassle having to switch out twice every time you lose a stock. Every Pokémon will also be balanced with the others in mind, so in the end only wanting to play as one of them isn't an actual option outside of matches that are purely for fun.

I fully understand why they went back to the Pokémon Trainer concept though, it's infinitely more interesting than any one of the Pokémon being alone, just not to me.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Came up with a codec conversation for
I'm a teensy bit proud of it.

Spoiler

Snake: I've never seen a sword quite so big - how could a scrawny little guy like that even carry it?
Otacon: Cloud is anything but scrawny, Snake. In fact, he's arguably one of the strongest fighters here!
Snake: He must be, if he's able to wield a weapon so... unwieldy.
Otacon: That's the Buster Sword. It's a weapon passed down to Cloud from his friend, Zack Fair.
Snake: Better be careful. Some people might not like spoilers.
Otacon: ...right. Anyway, Cloud's a former SOLDIER, a member of the military force of the Shinra Electric Power company.
Snake: What kind of power company needs an armed military force? I mean, I guess it'd be useful for collecting unpaid bills, but still, that seems a little drastic.
Otacon: Snake, we've got a lot to get through, so would you mind just letting me finish?
Snake: With all due respect, Otacon, I don't have time for an hour-long lecture on yet another JRPG protagonist... not after last time, and definitely not during this fight!
Otacon: ...fine.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Rock Smash was a terrible move anyway

I'm kinda glad it's gone

 

[Zinith]

Nice choises overall. I wish I could do this, as well.

You don't want to dox yourself? Understandable...

I don't really care if people know my real name or not