Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[pupNapoleon]

at least they get their own moves. fans of dark Samus are happy its her but honestly thats a bad echo. it doesnt fit who dark samus is or how it fights. Charizard, squirtle, and ivysaur are not the character the trainer is. saying sakurai doesnt care about them or cares about them less than echoes is just wrong. every pokemon has redone animations, T received a huge rework by removing stamina and making switching easier. the clear goal of the trainer is to use the three pokemon as a team as you would in their source games. if you want to play a singular pokemon of the three: now you can. in brawl you couldnt.

and to counter your website argument echoes wont even universally have t hier own icon on character selection screen does that make them somehow less significant?

I did not say Sakurai does not care about them, I stated the FACT that the individual Pokemon get less spotlight than echoes.
This is not something that can be argued- its based on the actual Smash website.

Your 'counter argument' actually proves my statement further. Echoes are on the CSS no matter what. As far as we know, there is no way to get the three individual Pokemon on the control screen *at all.*

 

[LetterO]

...
Knuckles! Wait...

Uh... Hm...
Krystal! ...Dang it!

Um...
Kafei! Yeah! That'll do.
Fun fact: "Xnsrv" vf npghnyyl cerggl pybfr gb zl erny anzr.
What can he do as a Fighter? Who knows!

Ah, Rsora! The most beloved of characters.

I wonder if he likes fSteak?

you couldve said karate joe, i will never forgive this

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do realize that. I also think that Jigglypuff getting more spotlight than Squirtle or Charizard is ludicrous.
Am I being petty? Maybe. But I also think Pokemon Trainer would be best served in other ways.

Jigglypuff is not getting more spotlight. It's just easier to add in than the PT Pokemon. That's all it has going for it. It uses Kirby's assets to make it faster and easier.

Squirtle and Ivysaur were cut last time due to the 3DS and balance issues. The balance issues for Transformations were largely improved on in Ultimate. Charizard was kept in because it's leagues above Squirte and Ivysaur in popularity, and 4 couldn't just keep working on characters forever. There's a reason you weren't going to see Squirtle or Ivysaur as DLC. It was both or none. They are completely tied together via Pokemon Trainer and don't stand out on their own anywhere the near same as Charizard(which is why it was easy to split off for a game. And only 1 game thusfar). It was either have all 3 Pokemon split and keep Jigglypuff, or having Charizard in Jigglypuff. Those were the two options in 4 realistically. They went with the latter.

I'm one for all vets back, but transformations were a huge issue and still are to a degree. You can see that by the PT complaints, that you can't individually play as the Pokemon. Also, has it been confirmed stamina is gone? I forget. I think type weaknesses are too, though.

 

[Shroob]

Jigglypuff is not getting more spotlight. It's just easier to add in than the PT Pokemon. That's all it has going for it. It uses Kirby's assets to make it faster and easier.

Squirtle and Ivysaur were cut last time due to the 3DS and balance issues. The balance issues for Transformations were largely improved on in Ultimate. Charizard was kept in because it's leagues above Squirte and Ivysaur in popularity, and 4 couldn't just keep working on characters forever. There's a reason you weren't going to see Squirtle or Ivysaur as DLC. It was both or none. They are completely tied together via Pokemon Trainer and don't stand out on their won anywhere the near same as Charizard(which is why it was easy to split off for a game. And only 1 game thusfar). It was either have all 3 Pokemon split and keep Jigglypuff, or having Charizard in Jigglypuff. Those were the two options in 4 realistically. They went with the latter.

I'm one for all vets back, but transformations were a huge issue and still are to a degree. You can see that by the PT complaints, that you can't individually play as the Pokemon. Also, has it been confirmed stamina is gone? I forget. I think type weaknesses are too, though.

I'm pretty sure Stamina is gone as said in the E3 direct.

 

[KMDP]

you couldve said karate joe, i will never forgive this

But Joe starts with a "J".

 

[Koopaul]

The proposed argument against Isabelle doesn't make sense. Sakurai commented day one of Lucina that she was shorter.

Yes but Lucina's attack have the same reach. Villager's punching animation would be considerably shorter in length with Isabelle. However if you just make her arms stretch for that attack I suppose it could work.

 

[Hinata]

Sakurai will put in a newcomer

But it has to be a character that starts with the letter of your first name. Who is it?

My name starts with Q so I'm screwed. Q from Street Fighter or the F-Zero one I guess

My name starts with K, so I'm choosin' Kiryu from Yakuza.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm pretty sure Stamina is gone as said in the E3 direct.

Stamina is gone. My argument had to do with Spotlight, not gameplay.
As far as we know, we arent even getting Squirtle or Ivysaur amiibo.

 

[LetterO]

Oh yeah, speaking of Echoes, here’s an unpopular opinion:

I’d really like Metal Sonic as the Sonic echo, but it probably wont happen because Shadow.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yes but Lucina's attack have the same reach. Villager's punching animation would be considerably shorter in length with Isabelle. However if you just make her arms stretch for that attack I suppose it could work.

Or, she could just have a shorter reach. Just like Lucina has a shorter hitbox.
And thats if you consider her limbs to be shorter at all. Where is that user who posted an image in the past where they were identical?

 

[Danpal65]

As far as we know, we arent even getting Squirtle or Ivysaur amiibo.

That's an assumption. We don't know one way or another how Pokemon Trainer amiibo are going to be handled.

 

[lizard1929]

Stamina is gone. My argument had to do with Spotlight, not gameplay.
As far as we know, we arent even getting Squirtle or Ivysaur amiibo.

Probably a pkm trainer amiibo considering wolf is getting an amiibo due to smash.

 

[pupNapoleon]

That's an assumption. We don't know one way or another how Pokemon Trainer amiibo are going to be handled.

I said, "as far as we know." There is no assumption in stating what information has been released.

 

[KMDP]

My name starts with K, so I'm choosin' Kiryu from Yakuza.

That's a pretty good choice.

Much better than what I went for.

I actually briefly considered Krookodile, but went for the joke instead.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Oh yeah, speaking of Echoes, here’s an unpopular opinion:

I’d really like Metal Sonic as the Sonic echo, but it probably wont happen because Shadow.

Why not both?

 

[Honest Slug]

My name starts with a G.

Geno. Easiest decision of my life.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Name Starts with A, so Ashley.

 

[blackghost]

That's an assumption. We don't know one way or another how Pokemon Trainer amiibo are going to be handled.

nintendo passing up an amiibo that would be popular doesnt seem likely but some people love to panic over nothing.

 

[Zinith]

If I did a list using ALL of the letters in my name, P.Kat would be happy as I have a LOT of "A"s

 

[pupNapoleon]

nintendo passing up an amiibo that would be popular doesnt seem likely but some people love to panic over nothing.

Please don't insinuate I am panicking. I'm merely defending the actuarial in that the Pokemon with the Trainer get less spotlight than other Pokemon, and even echo characters.

 

[GunBlaze]

It is ridiculous that three of the most iconic pokemon (and video game) characters are relegated to being less important than echo fighters.

What the heck, man?

 

[pupNapoleon]

What the heck, man?

Please see every other comment to which I've responded and which has not been refuted.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Or, she could just have a shorter reach. Just like Lucina has a shorter hitbox.
And thats if you consider her limbs to be shorter at all. Where is that user who posted an image in the past where they were identical?

Lucina's hitbox is barely a few pixels short. Not a huge difference at all. So making her arms stretch would be a necessity. If her reach is that far(as in way more than a few pixels at best), she's coming closer to regular clone territory ala Pichu(who is pretty much the ideal comparison here. It's a clone of Pikachu with different proportions, similar body shape, and can easily do all the same moves. This fits Isabelle a lot better than an Echo while not having to do extra work on a new model or forcing stuff like stretching her own limbs just to make it work).

The more work you have to do to make an Echo fit the proportions, the more it becomes better to make them a regular clone, which would arguably take less time due to having no need for a new model. It's more of a skeleton rig with very small adjustments at that point.

 

[Hinata]

You know somethin' I just realized? Loz was sayin' that the reveal for the Direct ain't gonna be Isaac, and it's gonna be Skull Kid instead, right?

Well, even if the reveal isn't Skull Kid either, I guarantee people will still be giving him credit because they'll be like "well he was right!!!! it wasn't isaac!!!!"

 

[pupNapoleon]

Lucina's hitbox is barely a few pixels short. Not a huge difference at all. So making her arms stretch would be a necessity. If her reach is that far, she's coming closer to regular clone territory ala Pichu(who is pretty much the ideal comparison here. It's a clone of Pikachu with different proportions, similar body shape, and can easily do all the same moves. This fits Isabelle a lot better than an Echo while not having to do extra work on a new model or forcing stuff like stretching her own limbs just to make it work).

The more work you have to do to make an Echo fit the proportions, the more it becomes better to make them a regular clone, which would arguably take less time due to having no need for a new model. It's more of a skeleton rig with very small adjustments at that point.

"Regular clone" encompasses what Echoes are.
The biggest different in Pichu, the fact that he damages himself, is not even discussed in your post.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Name starts with B so obviously it's gonna have to be Boshi Bubsy Bomberman

 

[GunBlaze]

Please see every other comment to which I've responded and which has not been refuted.

Like, I get it, you wanted your character, and wanted your character to be alone. I just find the "importance" thing to be kinda ridiculous.

 

[Nethermoosen]

"Regular clone" encompasses what Echoes are.
The biggest different in Pichu, the fact that he damages himself, is not even discussed in your post.

Plus he’s faster, lighter, shorter range and has altered properties in the moveset.

 

[Zinith]

Name starts with B so obviously it's gonna have to be Boshi Bubsy Bomberman

Odd that you consider Boshi a worse addition than BUBSY!!!

 

[Metal Shop X]

Tbh, I wouldn't consider Ivysaur to be all that iconic, compard to Squirtle and Charizard atleast. I like the little guy, but if it wasn't for Brawl, nobody would care about him. So him getting some attention is already good for how small his popularity is outside of Smash.

 

[CJ Falcon]

My name starts with C

Cell

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Regular clone" encompasses what Echoes are.
The biggest different in Pichu, the fact that he damages himself, is not even discussed in your post.

No, no they don't. Regular clones can have different proportions(but similar body shapes), vastly different heights(every Echo has no more than a few pixels difference at best), different weights, and entirely different moves as well as options. Dr. Mario is proof of this. He, just like Pichu, are not Echoes in any way. They are regular clones.

Clones and Echoes are two different categories in Smash. They always were. Echoes are just a sub-set of clones(due to their development origins), but are not different enough to be a regular clone. This is why Dr. Mario is a Clone and Lucina and Dark Pit are Echoes. They have actual real differences between how they work.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Like, I get it, you wanted your character, and wanted your character to be alone. I just find the "importance" thing to be kinda ridiculous.

If I could direct you to my avatar, it can be seen that I am quite fond of Pokemon Trainer.
You can find facts ridiculous, but it in no way disputes any of my arguments.

 

[GunBlaze]

Plus he’s faster, lighter, shorter range and has altered properties in the moveset.

In addition to having at least one unique attack, given it keeps the old Up Smash headbutt, and assuming Pichu keeps the old Nair.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Odd that you consider Boshi a worse addition than BUBSY!!!

You're right, the real choice was Blanka

 

[osby]

My name starts with M.

So I guess it's spring Man.

 

[pupNapoleon]

No, no they don't. Regular clones can have different proportions(but similar body shapes), vastly different heights(every Echo has no more than a few pixels difference at best), different weights, and entirely different moves as well as options. Dr. Mario is proof of this. He, just like Pichu, are not Echoes in any way. They are regular clones.

Clones and Echoes are two different categories in Smash. They always were. Echoes are just a sub-set of clones(due to their development origins), but are not different enough to be a regular clone. This is why Dr. Mario is a Clone and Lucina and Dark Pit are Echoes. They have actual real differences between how they work.

We are working on a constantly evolving basis of what an echo is. They are poorly defined.
Clones are not defined at all and are a fan made term.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but I also won't take anyone else's opinion on the matter as much more than an opinion, given how the idea of 'echo' seems to be altered with each new one we get.

 

[GunBlaze]

You can find facts ridiculous, but it in no way disputes any of my arguments.

Now that's just, like, your opinion, man. But as they say, different strokes for different folks.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I think we should be honest....an Echo is whatever Sakurai deemed, even if in hindsight, he didn’t exactly explain it all to us or maybe hadn’t quite thought through EXACTLY what makes an echo. Not that it matters, because it’s his definition and he can change it as he likes until he gives a full, official explanation.

 

[Arcadenik]

Although Arcadenik is the luckiest fan in the world for going against the grain and assuming the Duck Hunt dog was possible.

Aww... thanks!

Wish me luck! Meowth really needs it.