Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Yes! Equality! The guys want her! The girls want her! Everyone wants Bella!

Bella's so hot, even the animals want her!

Meet your new Top Tier goddess!
View attachment 160747

...Ok that was way too much fun. I kinda wouldn't mind seeing this now.

OMG amazing! I just asked someone for a stock icon too XD this is perfect. Could you make a sig sized one too? I'll throw both in the stock icon thread.

Thanksssssss!

 

[Luigi The President]

Lara's cool. Just hoping she doesn't become the next "ACTUALLY Sakurai would put her in over Geno and here's why" and cause 5 pages of debate.

 

[Enchess]

Also Samus vs Peach vs Lara vs Chun Li is a female thing I really really really want to see in Smash one day.

That's another thing that NEEDS to happen.

If both Lara and Chun Li come together, I'm on board despite my distaste for 3rd parties in Smash. That's a really special matchup and it would be worth it.

 

[Iridium]

I find the concept of demo tier lists to be the dumbest thing; besides the fact it's a demo with so much subject to change, there's the fact people have barely got to play it and when they have it been mostly done so under 2 minute time matches with items/Smash Balls on. The month old Smash 3DS tier lists were bad enough, but at least those were with the released game that people actually got to play competitively on their own terms. I get it's ultimately harmless, but still see it as something so pointlessly forced.

And then there's some people making tier lists with all the other characters based on minutes long beta footage of them...

Very true. ESAM's opinions (hehe) on this are probably the most easy to mock. I've seen his video, and it isn't the most informative.

 

[Noipoi]

On the topic of faces that look wrong in Smash, the Pokemon Trainer looks ridiculous. I don't know what's changed since Brawl but he somehow looks even sillier then he did back then. Why is their nose almost nonexistent? At least I can escape from that awful voice by playing the female trainer, but I'll never escape the face.

Although I suppose it could be worse. They could have the souless, unchanging smile of a certain other trainer.

Although this kid does still have a clearly visible nose...

For the love of God, please have the player character actually emote in Gen 8.
it doesn't have to be anything amazing, just something more than in the face of IMMINENT DANGER.

 

[Chrono.]

I wonder what kind of reaction this would have gotten if it hit 4chan around March:

View attachment 160744

I would've cried foul on Chrom looking like butt and WFT having more life-like eyes, for sure.

Oh, and, Young Link and Pichu being here at all.

 

[Luigi The President]

Also, here's my thoughts on the leak.
I certainly hope we're not still believing it after, y'know, the Skull Kid render?

 

[Sharkarat]

Now outside of that, definitely not. Same could probably be said about Shadow, if you're not familiar with platformers or the modern series itself, you could probably not know who he is. But I digress.)

It's pretty much at this part were we disagree.

I'm arguing as someone who has never actually really played a Sonic Game. My Sonic exposure is mostly second hand (meaning Videos, images, memes), outside of having watched Sonic X when younger. I don't know/care enough where i seperate it into era and when I started seeing Sonic, Shadow was already a character so to me he's always been there.

But yeah, we should probably just agree to disagree.

 

[Wyoming]

"You'll be seeing your dad soon, Fox."
"Daddy screamed REEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAL good before he died"
"Annoying bird! I am the mighty Leon!"
"Don't get too cocky, Star Fox"
"I think I'll torture you for a while"
"Not yet. The party's just begun"
"You're good, but I'm better!"

Sakurai include all of these I dare you.

 

[Iridium]

inb4 we get a September direct and we get a render from yesterday's leak.

I'll say the 24th, if in September.

 

[Deleted member]

No way irrelevant characters get into this game" - Proceeds to put Ridley

>Ridley
>Irrelevant

 

[Luigi The President]

I'll say the 24th, if in September.

Why so?

 

[KMDP]

This design would work perfectly, with the sunglasses as an alternate accessory:

View attachment 160749

Lara Croft has an incredibly good design. Reboot Lara doesn't really look all that much like her (and I'm not talking about her chest), and that's kinda... bad? Original Lara is iconic and recognizable, like it or not, and changing her design so thoroughly is kind of insulting to the character.

 

[ZephyrZ]

"Daddy screamed REEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAL good before he died"

Oh jeeze, I forgot this line. With how joyfully cheezy Starfox can beat times a line like this is extra shocking.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Adding to the fact that Sakurai seem's to be breaking "fan made trends" every time he announces something.

"Impossible to have a full cast, too much work" - No cuts
"No way irrelevant characters get into this game" - Proceeds to put Ridley, Simon and K. Rool in this game.
"A 3rd party series won't get 2 characters"- Richter
"BUT, a 3rd party series can't get 3 characters"......

I'm all for it if it means Sakurai can break this logic too.

Additionally, I also think this is the end-all-be-all game. Between the base and DLC, I have a feeling we are going to get a lot more characters than we expect, unique and echo fighters together. Personally speaking.

CRAZY SPECULATION ALARM:

Honestly I think Sakurai realized he's running out of road here. Not in the sense that "There's no more good characters!" Far from it. I mean more more that we've gotten so deep into third party characters that it would be a licensing nightmare to just keep adding to the pile. I can't imagine that having A-Listers like Cloud, Ryu, Megaman, Sonic, and Pac-Man are in any way cheap. Sure, they're probably very lenient with how they're implemented but for each character Nintendo doesn't own, it's a team of lawers and ambassadors and thorough content reviews just to make sure all parties involved are satisfied with how said character is realized.

Just look at PlayStation All-Stars if you want an example of how difficult third parties can be. Raiden over Snake because of corporate demand. Nu Dante couldn't have any of his weapons because of spoilers. The only remotely friendly third parties were 2K (Big Daddy) and Namco (Heihachi) who put in work and tried to make it a good game. Granted, Sakurai has the clout and connections to implement his vision but it's still a cautionary tale.

That's why I believe it's probably less prohibitive to double dip into companies they already have a working relationship with and flesh out their current cast instead of securing even more licensing deals. So we may get Tails, Shadow, Richter, and others because it's much easier to add another contract than it is to begin the process all over again.

end crazy speculation

 

[Deleted member]

Oh jeeze, I forgot this line. With how joyfully cheezy Starfox can beat times a line like this is extra shocking.

Is it because of the sexual innuendo or?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Lara Croft has an incredibly good design. Reboot Lara doesn't really look all that much like her (and I'm not talking about her chest), and that's kinda... bad? Original Lara is iconic and recognizable, like it or not, and changing her design so thoroughly is kind of insulting to the character.

I didn't mind making her look more like a ''real" woman. (I hate the term real woman considering women like men come in all shapes and sizes.)

I don't even particularly mind TOO much how the new Lara looks.

What I do mind?

She's just so god damn devoid of personality. She's sooooooo boring in comparison to OG Lara.

And I blame it on the more ''serious" tone.

 

[Deleted member]

If we're guessing Direct dates, my money's on somewhere around the second or third week of September. Seeing as how the paid online is launching in the second half of the month, any date in that time-frame makes the most sense IMO.

 

[cothero]

If both Lara and Chun Li come together, I'm on board despite my distaste for 3rd parties in Smash. That's a really special matchup and it would be worth it.

I'm pretty sure they're going to add Chun-Li as an AT if Ken is going to be playable. There are other interesting candidates like Blanka and Zangief, but Chun-Li is way more popular.

 

[Paperchampion23]

>Ridley
>Irrelevant
View attachment 160756

****, I mean't just K. Rool and Simon XD

 

[ZephyrZ]

Is it because of the sexual innuendo or?

No, it's just really brutal and sadistic.

 

[Union of Darkness]

"No way irrelevant characters get into this game" - Proceeds to put Ridley, Simon and K. Rool in this game.
Ridley

Don't be ignorant now.

 

[MrSmashFour]

i really think ultimate may be pulled forward, let's review the evidence:

1. After Brawl was delayed three times, it's very possible Sakurai announced Dec 7th as the "worst case scenario" release date and has been anticipating pulling forward the date.
2. December 7th misses Black Friday. You don't want your system seller to miss Black Friday.
3. They mention Wolf having unique lines in the latest blog post, voices - especially newly recorded ones - are usually one of the last things to be added to the game
4. ESRB has given the game an age rating over 3 months before scheduled release. By law they have to have seen all the content that will be in the final version. Only minor touch-ups must stand in the way between now and release

A man can dream...

 

[Wyoming]

Is it because of the sexual innuendo or?

Pigma betrayed James McCloud on Venom and was a major part of his death with Andross. It's to rile up Fox in a dirty and sadistic matter.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Don't be ignorant now.

****, I mean't just K. Rool and Simon XD

 

[insomniac19]

Yeah, I don't understand why some people have the "I would cut this character in a hearbeat" or "this character doesn't deserve a spot in Smash because x, y, or z" mindset. To echo what others have said, Smash opened up so many franchises that I'd never known before. I never knew who Ness was when I first saw him in 64, but Earthbound/MOTHER has become one of my all time favourite franchises, and Earthbound is my favourite SNES game.

Looking at Ultimate, I didn't know who Richter was, but seeing how fun and well designed he and Simon are in Ultimate made me want to try out Castlevania for the first time.

This series is a celebration of the characters and franchises that appear within it, and Sakurai does an amazing job of presenting them to new and burgeoning fans. Sure, you don't have to like a character that is included or one that someone wishes for, but thinking a character would be better off not included or would somehow make the final product worth less, than you're being selfish and unnecessarily negative.

 

[Luigi The President]

i really think ultimate may be pulled forward, let's review the evidence:

1. After Brawl was delayed three times, it's very possible Sakurai announced Dec 7th as the "worst case scenario" release date and has been anticipating pulling forward the date.
2. December 7th misses Black Friday. You don't want your system seller to miss Black Friday.
3. They mention Wolf having unique lines in the latest blog post, voices - especially newly recorded ones - are usually one of the last things to be added to the game
4. ESRB has given the game an age rating over 3 months before scheduled release. By law they have to have seen all the content that will be in the final version. Only minor touch-ups must stand in the way between now and release

The assumptions in this post, are astounding. Don't mean to be rude, but...no, no this is...not gonna happen.
It doesn't matter if this system seller misses Black Friday. It's still gonna be selling systems. Also, notice how no delay ever happened to Smash 4? Sakurai learned from Brawl.

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

I didn't mind making her look more like a ''real" woman. (I hate the term real woman considering women like men come in all shapes and sizes.)

I don't even particularly mind TOO much how the new Lara looks.

What I do mind?

She's just so god damn devoid of personality. She's sooooooo boring in comparison to OG Lara.

And I blame it on the more ''serious" tone.

They made her way too vulnerable all the time. I get that she was supposed to be starting out but it felt like you couldn't walk five seconds without her being in some compromising situation.

 

[Noipoi]

i really think ultimate may be pulled forward, let's review the evidence:

1. After Brawl was delayed three times, it's very possible Sakurai announced Dec 7th as the "worst case scenario" release date and has been anticipating pulling forward the date.
2. December 7th misses Black Friday. You don't want your system seller to miss Black Friday.
3. They mention Wolf having unique lines in the latest blog post, voices - especially newly recorded ones - are usually one of the last things to be added to the game
4. ESRB has given the game an age rating over 3 months before scheduled release. By law they have to have seen all the content that will be in the final version. Only minor touch-ups must stand in the way between now and release

A man can dream...

Smash doesn't need Black Friday, whatever day a Smash game releases on immediately becomes a holiday.
Screw Black Friday, we have Smash Friday.

 

[Deleted member]

i really think ultimate may be pulled forward, let's review the evidence:

1. After Brawl was delayed three times, it's very possible Sakurai announced Dec 7th as the "worst case scenario" release date and has been anticipating pulling forward the date.
2. December 7th misses Black Friday. You don't want your system seller to miss Black Friday.
3. They mention Wolf having unique lines in the latest blog post, voices - especially newly recorded ones - are usually one of the last things to be added to the game
4. ESRB has given the game an age rating over 3 months before scheduled release. By law they have to have seen all the content that will be in the final version. Only minor touch-ups must stand in the way between now and release

Black Friday is really only great for games that are on sale, though. Also, I don't think Nintendo is gonna put Pokemon and Smash in the same month and risk cannibalizing sales. Those two are very strategically placed so that they do not interfere with each-other.

Also, even if minor touch ups are all that's left, that still takes a ton of time, especially when Sakurai is the type to make sure everything is near flawless before release. I imagine the game won't go gold until late October at the earliest.

 

[TheYungLink]

Honestly I think people only wanted to cut characters because they were afraid that whatever character they didn't like may have taken away from bringing a veteran back. But this time EVERYONE IS HERE and all that, and even someone like me, who doesn't like that Dr. Mario is a separate playable character from Mario rather than a costume, doesn't care at all that he's in anymore because no one is cut now.

It's all newcomers from here on out baybee, so let's all enjoy the ride.

 

[Starbound]

If the ESRB has seen the info, then the image dump we just got seems interesting. Could it be coming from the same source? I know we talked about the same style of leaking as an attempt to replicate it. What if it was just the same guy who never got caught? The timing is just really peculiar.

They can still tweak minor things after the ESRB viewing, like the Agnes accent.

I feel like we won't get a clear answer on this until the guy posts a legit video or we get a new trailer. Reminder that very few people bought the ESRB leak until we got video footage.

Also I've never heard of Bravely Default before and after listening to its OST for the past few hours, I would honestly not mind it as long as Square is GENEROUS with the music we can use. Evil Wings is probably my favorite.

 

[Union of Darkness]

Posted it just after yours. My bad.
Also I guess posts with only quotes show up as nothing when quoted.

 

[BluePikmin11]

On that Mimique guy and whether he is passing off real leaks as "predictions", we do have precedence of that having happened before; when Sal Romano posted the first part of the Gematsu Leaks he did so as an "unlikely prediction" in a Neogaf thread, so it could certainly possibly happen again. The main thing I find curious about him is him "predicting" a Rathalos AT just a week before the August Direct, that is absolutely not something I seen anyone bringing up anywhere prior. Saying bring everyone back a couple weeks before E3, Shovel Knight AT, and Final Smash meters are also interesting things.

Definitely going to keep an eye out for him.

He is not an actual leaker.

I am on his Discord server mostly for speculation purposes, and his predictions come from forming his own critical thoughts on the matter. As to why he thought of a Ratholos AT, here is what he said to me just now:

"basic logic was monhunter is too dynamic for the role with all the customization and how speciifcally your character's movement changes to work as a character. but monster hunter was a really frequent collaboration with nintendo etc etc. so i'd assume a monster would represent the game better than a hunter"

He knows his speculation stuff very well, and is willing to go beyond just newcomers to predict, thinking further outside the box to critically think about possible Assist Trophies. Mimique is no leaker, he is just very good at predictions.

 

[Deleted member]

Pigma betrayed James McCloud on Venom and was a major part of his death with Andross. It's to rile up Fox in a dirty and sadistic matter.

I like to think it's the sexual innuendo.

Honestly I think people only wanted to cut characters because they were afraid that whatever character they didn't like may have taken away from bringing a veteran back. But this time EVERYONE IS HERE and all that, and even someone like me, who doesn't like that Dr. Mario is a separate playable character from Mario rather than a costume, doesn't care at all that he's in anymore because no one is cut now.

It's all newcomers from here on out baybee, so let's all enjoy the ride.

To cut anyone in Ultimate would be refusing the possibility of a tagline that's gonna make this thing sell like water.
"Everyone is here!" is not something you can casually say but Smash can say that and more. It's possibly the biggest crossover of all time and this shouldn't be understated.

 

[amageish]

Let's see how many layers of NOPE, Demi-fiend is on.

1. 3rd party
2. Sega already has 2 characters
3. Niche genre
4. Niche game series within that genre
5. Extremely dark tones
6. Unconventional appearance
7. Anime-styled look
8. Comes from a game that never got released on a Nintendo console
9. Is a one-off protagonist
10. Game came out 13 years ago

At the very least, I have Featuring Dante memes.

I mean, they did reference the possibility of a(nother) remake, which could be for a Nintendo system? So, that'd knock out 2 of your 10 barriers to entry at least!

That said, they said they'd be remaking the version that doesn't feature Dante from the Devil May Cry series, so what's really the point anyway. /s

On that Mimique guy and whether he is passing off real leaks as "predictions", we do have precedence of that having happened before; when Sal Romano posted the first part of the Gematsu Leaks he did so as an "unlikely prediction" in a Neogaf thread, so it could certainly possibly happen again. The main thing I find curious about him is him "predicting" a Rathalos AT just a week before the August Direct, that is absolutely not something I seen anyone bringing up anywhere prior. Saying bring everyone back a couple weeks before E3, Shovel Knight AT, and Final Smash meters are also interesting things.

Definitely going to keep an eye out for him.

If Mimique is leaking, then I certainly hope that he's just editorializing the reasons for characters being included/excluded as they're kind of... odd... Like, Bandana Waddle Dee is excluded on the grounds of "you can't really sell him or hype him up well to non-Kirby fans" when Dee is cute and would likely have a pretty easy-to-understand moveset, making him a perfect addition for the more casual Smash-playing market.

In addition, he's popular with hardcore fans worldwide - he's even the next most popular unconfirmed character in Japan according to SSB4Dojo poll result collection. I'm not a huge Bandana Dee supporter, but it'd be odd to make him an Assist Trophy on the grounds of "lack of mass appeal."

Mimique also claims that we will get a SMT representative as DLC with a Persona echo fighter, so my biases should be in favour of him being a leaker, but I'm honestly pretty doubtful myself...

 

[Paperchampion23]

i really think ultimate may be pulled forward, let's review the evidence:

1. After Brawl was delayed three times, it's very possible Sakurai announced Dec 7th as the "worst case scenario" release date and has been anticipating pulling forward the date.
2. December 7th misses Black Friday. You don't want your system seller to miss Black Friday.
3. They mention Wolf having unique lines in the latest blog post, voices - especially newly recorded ones - are usually one of the last things to be added to the game
4. ESRB has given the game an age rating over 3 months before scheduled release. By law they have to have seen all the content that will be in the final version. Only minor touch-ups must stand in the way between now and release

A man can dream...

I mean, they could effectively be done with the game, but tweaking and balancing in fighting games are a HUGE timesink. Not only that, but the game has 73+ characters. If the game got a rating today with about 2 months to spare before going gold, then thats great because now they can spend the time balancing all of these characters more.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

I'm surprised HE hasn't been announced yet, he's Nintendo exclusive AND is the visual-novel man himself.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Relevancy shouldn't even be a criteria we uphold at this point.

Sakurai will go and dig back for characters like Mr. Game & Watch Duck Hunt Dog, but he'll go so forward and add characters so new that we don't even know they exist until the game is out like Corrin and Greninja.

 

[KMDP]

I didn't mind making her look more like a ''real" woman. (I hate the term real woman considering women like men come in all shapes and sizes.)

I don't even particularly mind TOO much how the new Lara looks.

What I do mind?

She's just so god damn devoid of personality. She's sooooooo boring in comparison to OG Lara.

And I blame it on the more ''serious" tone.

Yeah, on the appearance front, if the New Lara was a new character, there'd be no problem. It's just not Lara Croft.

Serious = Stoic and Real = Brown; didn't you know, Fisher?

Also, you're right about the "all shapes and sizes" thing. There's a joke I'd make about it, but I don't want to piss people off, so I'll keep it to myself (unless people actually want to hear it).