Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dukeofdeath5]

Until further evidence, I'm calling fake on this.


The logic behind it makes no sense when you factor in Vergeben.



Somehow his sources are correct about there being a 2nd Square Enix character, yet they all 3 get Pokemon wrong, despite literally everything else they say lining up?


If the person taking these 'pictures' had access to Agnes of all characters, they would most assuredly have access to the Gen7 rep as well, there wouldn't be a ?. It doesn't make sense.

Unless they're just watching us squirm, which considering the images they supplied, is entirely possible

 

[praline]

I honestly believe this to be fake.

But who knows.

I just have a weird feeling about the randomness of Agnes/Bravely Default instead of Geno.

There's no reason for them to say no at this point to him. They said yes to the Mii costume when they could've easily said no there.

It just doesn't add up logically in my head.

Square could think that Geno isn't worth it compared to a character from a series they have full ownership of.

 

[Deleted member]

Man, these past few hours have been interesting. Sources with misleading info? Confusing renders? RUMOURS? Forget a September Direct...
LOOKS LIKE WE GOTTA CALL OUR GUY.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

You know, during pre-Brawl as well as pre-Smash 4, I was very much an advocate of “only the best gets-in”. Wasn’t too fond of certain character inclusions as ridiculed those who championed for characters I though didn’t deserve or didn’t fit in.

But you know what, I don’t give a **** anymore. Let them all in! Springman. Ayuko Tachibana. Decidueye and/or Icineror. Elma and/or Rex & Pyra. Heihachi. Dante. Master Chief. Scorpion. Monster Hunter. Doomslayer. Goku.

Add them all in.

 

[Shroob]

Unless they're just watching us squirm, which considering the images they supplied, is entirely possible

I mean, to me, all it does is harm their credibility.


If you're going to make a leak that basically proclaims from the rooftops that "VERG AND LOZ18 WERE LEGIT ALL ALONG", where's the Gen7? How is Agnes of all characters a worse kept secret than the new Pokemon?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You know, during pre-Brawl as well as pre-Smash 4, I was very much an advocate of “only the best gets-in”. Wasn’t too fond of certain character inclusions as ridiculed those who championed for characters I though didn’t deserve or didn’t fit in.

But you know what, I don’t give a **** anymore. Let them all in! Springman. Ayuko Tachibana. Decidueye and/or Icineror. Elma and/or Rex & Pyra. Heihachi. Dante. Master Chief. Scorpion. Monster Hunter. Doomslayer. Goku.

Add them all in.

kinda the same as this, but I find myself advocating certain characters over others based on legacy or timelessness.

honestly, we already have almost any big Nintendo character you could want to play as. if you factor in alt costumes, that number definitely goes up (even if some of the alts aren't all that great)

 

[perfectchaos83]

Until further evidence, I'm calling fake on this.


The logic behind it makes no sense when you factor in Vergeben.



Somehow his sources are correct about there being a 2nd Square Enix character, yet they all 3 get Pokemon wrong, despite literally everything else they say lining up?


If the person taking these 'pictures' had access to Agnes of all characters, they would most assuredly have access to the Gen7 rep as well, there wouldn't be a ?. It doesn't make sense.

To be fair, we can't infer the story of the leak based on the few pics we have. The only thing that can be taken from this (if true) are that Agnes/Ayumi, Chorus Kids, Isaac/Matthew, Ken, Isabelle, Shadow, Skull Kid and, at minimum, 1 mystery character are playable. Anything more than that is mere assumption and should not be treated as evidence for or against the leak.

 

[Darkraid]

Still not believing this. Still looks fake

 

[Shroob]

To be fair, we can't infer the story of the leak based on the few pics we have. The only thing that can be taken from this (if true) are that Agnes/Ayumi, Chorus Kids, Isaac/Matthew, Ken, Isabelle, Shadow, Skull Kid and, at minimum, 1 mystery character are playable. Anything more than that is mere assumption and should not be treated as evidence for or against the leak.

The leak lines up 1:1 with everything that Loz18 and Vergeben have said in the past EXCEPT for Pokemon.

Where is it?


Are you seriously telling me that Agnes, a 2nd Square Enix character, is a worse kept secret than our 8th Pokemon character?


I don't buy it.

 

[papagenos]

I honestly believe this to be fake.

But who knows.

I just have a weird feeling about the randomness of Agnes/Bravely Default instead of Geno.

There's no reason for them to say no at this point to him. They said yes to the Mii costume when they could've easily said no there.

It just doesn't add up logically in my head.

It only makes sense to me IF they have planned DLC and decided to save some of the big ballot choices (Geno/Waddle Dee) for DLC.

I don't see how we could be at this point with waddle dee being so highly requested AND completely absent from anything to do with King Dedede and also have Geno getting a Mii costume (basically the O.K. from square to use him) and square still being on board for ultimate and getting passed over for a Bravely Default rep.

just legitimately doesnt add up, unless they are purposely held off for DLC. not that im like totally believing this leak, rayman taught me photoshop is a powerful thing, but if this were to be true i'd have to assume bandana dee/geno are almost certainly DLC characters.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

I woke up from the best nap I've had in weeks and the pics are still being talked about, eh?

The lack of a Pokemon is definitely odd. Did the original poster of this pic on 4chan say that this was it for newcomers, or did they not say anything?

 

[StormC]

It only makes sense to me IF they have planned DLC and decided to save some of the big ballot choices (Geno/Waddle Dee) for DLC.

I don't see how we could be at this point with waddle dee being so highly requested AND completely absent from anything to do with King Dedede and also have Geno getting a Mii costume (basically the O.K. from square to use him) and square still being on board for ultimate and getting passed over for a Bravely Default rep.

just legitimately doesnt add up, unless they are purposely held off for DLC. not that im like totally believing this leak, rayman taught me photoshop is a powerful thing, but if this were to be true i'd have to assume bandana dee/geno are almost certainly DLC characters.

I am a Bandana Dee supporter but there is a very legitimate chance Sakurai will just pass on him. No character is a sure thing.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

The game is already amazing and more content is just more icing and decorations on the cake. Seriously, Smash has proven time and tom again it’s the best. Ultimate further cements this fact. That’s why I’m cool with adding in gaming icons not affiliated with Nintendo.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Until further evidence, I'm calling fake on this.


The logic behind it makes no sense when you factor in Vergeben.



Somehow his sources are correct about there being a 2nd Square Enix character, yet they all 3 get Pokemon wrong, despite literally everything else they say lining up?


If the person taking these 'pictures' had access to Agnes of all characters, they would most assuredly have access to the Gen7 rep as well, there wouldn't be a ?. It doesn't make sense.

Leaking is a wonky "business" with lots of different hurdles along the way, if this is legit it's almost certainly not the result of someone sitting alone in a room with the newest build and taking pictures, but likely to be the collaboration of different people's evidences. Like, notice how the Skull Kid and Isabelle pictures are taken from the CSS while the others are selected characters, not to mention the difference in quality between those images, that to me at least suggests that all of the pictures were not taken under the same circumstances. We know often when people have real leaks on their hands they try to keep it between themselves, this happened with the ESRB leak before someone uploaded it to 4chan, and apparently there were several people who knew about Ridley/Simon/no cuts/ICs/Snake before Vergeben leaked it.

I'm not saying this is necessarily real, I'm certainly not leaning that way yet myself, but the lack of characters does not necessarily prove anything.

 

[perfectchaos83]

The leak lines up 1:1 with everything that Loz18 and Vergeben have said in the past EXCEPT for Pokemon.

Where is it?


Are you seriously telling me that Agnes, a 2nd Square Enix character, is a worse kept secret than our 8th Pokemon character?


I don't buy it.

I'm telling you to stop making assumptions about **** nobody knows. We don't know the story behind this leak. The lack of a character does not make a leak fake. Deal with what is actually at hand. There's a Question Mark in the image to begin with so it's already implied not to be the full roster.

 

[Noipoi]

Man, these past few hours have been interesting. Sources with misleading info? Confusing renders? RUMOURS? Forget a September Direct...
LOOKS LIKE WE GOTTA CALL OUR GUY.

View attachment 160531

Where's that handy-dandy notebook?

 

[perfectchaos83]

I woke up from the best nap I've had in weeks and the pics are still being talked about, eh?

The lack of a Pokemon is definitely odd. Did the original poster of this pic on 4chan say that this was it for newcomers, or did they not say anything?

The original poster said nothing. The thread was titled "Here" with no text plus the image

 

[Cosmic77]

We're getting Agnes?! Awesome! Can't wait to play with her, right after I try out Dante.

Setting the lack of a Pokemon character aside, the art does look kinda sketchy. I'll keep an eye on this, even if I really don't think it's worth the time. The only reason I'm not throwing it out yet is because I've been burned before with the ESRB leak.

 

[Shroob]

Leaking is a wonky "business" with lots of different hurdles along the way, if this is legit it's almost certainly not the result of someone sitting alone in a room with the newest build and taking pictures, but likely to be the collaboration of different people's evidences. Like, notice how the Skull Kid and Isabelle pictures are taken from the CSS while the others are selected characters, not to mention the difference in quality between those images, that to me at least suggests that all of the pictures were not taken under the same circumstances. We know often when people have real leaks on their hands they try to keep it between themselves, this happened with the ESRB leak before someone uploaded it to 4chan, and apparently there were several people who knew about Ridley/Simon/no cuts/ICs/Snake before Vergeben leaked it.

I'm not saying this is necessarily real, I'm certainly not leaning that way yet myself, but the lack of characters does not necessarily prove anything.

Of course I understand this, but my logic is as follows:


Vergeben's sources are right about:

Simon, Isbelle, Ken, and a 2nd Square Rep

All 3 agree on a New Pokemon



I have a hard time believing that all 3 would be wrong about a new Pokemon if they knew all this as well.


I understand that 'there's a ? on the leak'


But if you know Agnes of all characters, and supposedly another 5-6 characters on top of that, how do you not see the new Pokemon as well?


Are all three of his sources right about literally everything else, but wrong on Pokemon? That just doesn't make sense.

 

[Jetsurge]

Guys you know there doesn't have to be a Pokemon newcomer. Pokemon got 4 veterans back in this game and the current state of Pokemon is gen 1 remakes. Pokemon Trainer's final smash uses the same text font and border that is used in Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

You know, during pre-Brawl as well as pre-Smash 4, I was very much an advocate of “only the best gets-in”. Wasn’t too fond of certain character inclusions as ridiculed those who championed for characters I though didn’t deserve or didn’t fit in.

But you know what, I don’t give a **** anymore. Let them all in! Springman. Ayuko Tachibana. Decidueye and/or Icineror. Elma and/or Rex & Pyra. Heihachi. Dante. Master Chief. Scorpion. Monster Hunter. Doomslayer. Goku.

Add them all in.

I feel like this too, throughout Brawl and Smash 4 speculation there were so many characters I was actively against, several of which ended up in the game. Now I just don't really care anymore, there are of course characters I want more than others, but for pretty much any character now I at worst just don't care for it, I've come to find the idea of actively hating on potential characters to be extremely silly.

Smash isn't some kind of cool kids' exclusive club, it's a celebration, and for a lot of the characters who people consider "unworthy" of it I just think it's cool they're granted the chance to take part in it at all.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

A suggestion from GFAQs that the Shadow was taken from the VS. splash screen.

 

[Shroob]

Guys you know there doesn't have to be a Pokemon newcomer. Pokemon got 4 veterans back in this game and the current state of Pokemon is gen 1 remakes. Pokemon Trainer's final smash uses the same text font that is used in Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee.

There doesn't 'have' to be one, correct.

But all 3 of Vergeben's sources said there would be one.

And everything else in this leak lines up with what he said right down to the 2nd Square rep.


How are his sources right about that, but all 3 wrong about the new Pokemon?

 

[perfectchaos83]

Of course I understand this, but my logic is as follows:


Vergeben's sources are right about:

Simon, Isbelle, Ken, and a 2nd Square Rep

All 3 agree on a New Pokemon



I have a hard time believing that all 3 would be wrong about a new Pokemon if they knew all this as well.


I understand that 'there's a ? on the leak'


But if you know Agnes of all characters, and supposedly another 5-6 characters on top of that, how do you not see the new Pokemon as well?


Are all three of his sources right about literally everything else, but wrong on Pokemon? That just doesn't make sense.

You're also assuming the person who posted it on 4chan is also the person who took the photos. That does not have to be the case. THe person who posted the ESRB photos got them 2nd hand after they had been passed around for quite some time.

 

[Das Koopa]

Shadow is 100% on the versus screen. It took me a while i figure it out, but the image is slightly tilted and the seemingly bleeding black with white is Chorus Men as Player 2 on the blue background.

Fake or real, I'm expecting the images these were cropped from to drop later.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Well I'm headin out, if the plot thickens in the 5 to 4 hours I have to get some sleep, god speed you magnificent ********.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Of course I understand this, but my logic is as follows:


Vergeben's sources are right about:

Simon, Isbelle, Ken, and a 2nd Square Rep

All 3 agree on a New Pokemon



I have a hard time believing that all 3 would be wrong about a new Pokemon if they knew all this as well.


I understand that 'there's a ? on the leak'


But if you know Agnes of all characters, and supposedly another 5-6 characters on top of that, how do you not see the new Pokemon as well?


Are all three of his sources right about literally everything else, but wrong on Pokemon? That just doesn't make sense.

There's nothing here that suggests that they were wrong about a Pokémon rep though, quite the contrary, that's almost certainly what the question mark is supposed to represent. They might have had an opportunity to get a picture of Agnes, but not the Pokémon, it could be that simple really. And if it's fake it's still clear that the faker has based it on Verg and Loz's leaks, so even then it's incredibly unlikely that the intention of the leak is to say that there aren't any Pokémon newcomers, and when you put that much time into faking something like that I highly doubt you make a slipup like that.

I'm not going to spend much time arguing for this leak, because like I said I'm not sold on it, but I just don't think the lack of a Pokémon is a strong point against it.

 

[Knight Dude]

Here's a twist on the 'pick some newcomers' games we've been playing based on our conversations yesterday (or the day before?)

We were arguing over whether it was better to add characters from newer games for their relevance to newer fans or older games for their nostalgia factor for older fans. So let's consider adding newcomers to represent time eras - you need to choose a newcomer who debuted in each of the 5-year periods below.

Before 1990
1990-1995
1995-2000
2000-2005
2005-2010
2010-2015
After 2015

---

Here are mine:

Pre 1990: Toad (first game - Super Mario Bros 2 - 1988)
early 90's: Tails (first game - Sonic the Hedgehog 2, 1992)
late 90's: Ivy (first game - Soulcalibur, 1998
early 00's: Skull Kid (first game - Zelda: Majora's Mask, 2000)
late 00's: Twili Midna (first game - Zelda: Twilight Princess, 2006)
early 10's: Dovahkiin (first game - Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, 2011)
Post 2015: Urbosa (first game - Zelda: Breath of the Wild, 2017)
Zelda bias? What Zelda bias?

Let's go.

1980's: Ryu Hayabusa(1988?)
1990-95: Mega Man X(1993)
1996-2000: Jin Kazama(1998)
2001-2005: Isaac(2001)
2006-2010: Sylux(2006)
2011-2015: Dillon(2012)
2016+: Icineroar(2016)

This was actually kind of fun to think about since I couldn't pick people from the same era, like Dixie or Springman.

 

[Blue7113]

1. Is that isaac?
2. Who’s Agnes?

 

[Cosmic77]

Guys you know there doesn't have to be a Pokemon newcomer. Pokemon got 4 veterans back in this game and the current state of Pokemon is gen 1 remakes. Pokemon Trainer's final smash uses the same text font and border that is used in Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee.

That's assuming Sakurai was aware of what Game Freak was planning for late 2018 when Ultimate's development started back in 2016. I don't think a text box is indicative of how Pokemon will be represented in this game, especially when we already have around eight new Gen VII Pokemon as Pokeballs.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm still not going to believe this leak until further evidence pops up but...

All this Agnes hate is making me said. I mean, Bravely Default doesn't have my favorite cast of characters in the world, but at least Agnes has a nice character design and a lot of moveset potential. People who are claiming she'll be "just another generic anime fighter" have no idea how large her list of possible cannon abilities through the job system is. She could use ninja skills, she could leap up valkyrie style, she could use time magic or trade HP for more damage like a dark knight. I'm not even sure what her main weapon would be. A spear? A knife? A staff or rod? A flaming sword spell-fencer style? Maybe she could carry a flaming sword in one hand and a knife in another - I'd kill for a moveset like that. Not to mention the potential for them to work out a unique "brave" and "default" mechanic for her.

I have nothing personal against Geno, but it's such a shame that everyone's expectation for him would ruin the hype surrounding a perfectly fine (although imo very unlikely) character choice.

 

[StormC]

I just refuse to accept that Shadow would look so off model in a professional game like this.

The eyes have corners in this "leak," except they curve in basically all his 3D renders.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_the_Hedgehog/Gallery

Now compare it to this fan render...

Pointy. Don't know if the fan just didn't notice this or didn't care, but if you're a professional character designer working on a massive game, you notice.

There's other little details that just feel off to me but that one especially stands out. Maybe I'm anal but I just can't see him looking that awful.

Anyway, going to bed. Hope we get something tomorrow...

 

[Blue7113]

I'm still not going to believe this leak until further evidence pops up but...

All this Agnes hate is making me said. I mean, Bravely Default doesn't have my favorite cast of characters in the world, but at least Agnes has a nice character design and a lot of moveset potential. People who are claiming she'll be "just another generic anime fighter" have no idea how large her list of possible cannon abilities through the job system is. She could use ninja skills, she could leap up valkyrie style, she could use time magic or trade HP for more damage like a dark knight. I'm not even sure what her main weapon would be. A spear? A knife? A staff or rod? A flaming sword spell-fencer style? Maybe she could carry a flaming sword in one hand and a knife in another - I'd kill for a moveset like that. Not to mention the potential for them to work out a unique "brave" and "default" mechanic for her.

I have nothing personal against Geno, but it's such a shame that everyone's expectation for him would ruin the hype surrounding a perfectly fine (although imo very unlikely) character choice.

Welcome to the world of Isaac. “He’s just another anime character he’s boring”. I would be fine with Agnes I thought Bravely Default was a Nintendo game anyway. Who would the mystery character be? Dee, Banjo?

 

[zeldasmash]

Um...what did I miss? What leak is it this time?

 

[Gentlepanda]

Pack it up, let's go home.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I don't really want to reiterate what I have already said a couple of times, but ignoring the weird circumstances surrounding geno with this game, and my personal bias, why would Square go for a TWEWY or Bravely Default character over Dragon Quest? Like, Dragon Quest is the big series not called Final Fantasy, i was half expecting there to be a Dragon Quest character before a FF character. In terms of smash 3rd party, dragon quest seems to tick every single box. Why are no leaks or any guesses really going for it?

 

[NintenRob]

I think I'd sooner believe it Ayumi, while I'm not really sold on the idea of a Japanese only retro character, I find it more believable than Agnes, who I find is notable enough as a third party character.

Plus the scrunchy matches the white well and hair colour is better I reckon. The hair style I could just see being an updated design, maybe Sakurai wants to Uprise her like Pit. Isaac is weird though.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Pack it up, let's go home.

Little Mac has green eyes. Why must we keep phtoshopping him?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Pack it up, let's go home.

It doesn't match perfectly

 

[Blue7113]

Wait so it’s fake now?