Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chrono.]

I've heard that this rumor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSo5ue1LnhQ&feature=youtu.be has been discussed in Japan recently

Which is odd because it has some massive holes in it. It mentions Ashley, Shovel Knight as what's assumed to be characters and it says the "Belmont" was not chosen because Bomberman was more popular. But it also talks about why Bomberman didn't end up as a character.

This rumor is old as dirt wtf I even remember being discussed he--

*sees upload date*

Oh that explains it.

 

[Iridium]

I just lost my will to do anything after those images. HELP. ME.

My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.

 

[KMDP]

injustice 2 had 15 new characters in its base roster. that still stands as a massive change. to really doesnt change that dbfz didnt launch with enough. a modern fighter should launch with min 25. excpetiojs f0r games like skullgirls and KI which had no budget

The very nature of Dragon Ball FighterZ graphics and lighting engine basically precluded Arc System Works from having a lot of characters within a reasonable time frame. It's also why none of the characters have Alt Costumes.

What I mean by that is that FighterZ has custom cel-shaded lighting that is basically hand drawn, the more characters you add, the more difficult the process becomes. Like, they could have held back the game to make Bardock and Broly for the base roster, but do you really want to hold the game back that much for two characters?

Does Volvagia have some sort of tragic backstory?

The tragicest.

 

[Zinith]

I just lost my will to do anything after those images. HELP. ME.

My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.

Sorry about that

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

This rumor is old as dirt wtf I even remember being discussed he--

*sees upload date*

Oh that explains it.

Yeah it is. But it was being discussed in Japan today. At like, various places.

Even though it's been LONG deconfirmed.

 

[DevaAshera]

injustice 2 had 15 new characters in its base roster. that still stands as a massive change. to really doesnt change that dbfz didnt launch with enough. a modern fighter should launch with min 25. excpetiojs f0r games like skullgirls and KI which had no budget

That's not realistic. No entirely new fighter has ever launched with more then 15 that I remember.

 

[Gumzilla]

Imagine if the next direct gets released and the first thing they show is Slippy as an echo fighter

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh yeah, on the topic of FE, I don't think sales are the sole reason a series "deserves" reps.

FE and Pokemon have a lot of characters. A lot. There's tons of characters who are popular and important to FE who will probably never make it in. Tiki, Sigurd, Lyn, Hector, Ephraim and Eirika, BK (although he has a chance right now), Alm and Celica, and Azura are all characters I've seen requested.

Meanwhile Metroid is almost entirely about Samus. Sylux is really the only popular character yet to be in the game. Unlike FE, Metroid isn't a character driven game, it's all about Samus. There's a reason she's in the game twice. That's why it has so few reps - now that Ridley is in there's no "must have" characters left.

That's not as much of an excuse for DK though. I've still got my fingers crossed for a unique Dixie, but I'm not expecting it.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

You realize Pokemon Trainer is basically three full characters in one, right? They're probably way more resource heavy then your typical fighter and I really doubt we'll ever see a character like them again.

I realize that but thank you for reminding me... Probably way more ressource heavy than any other fighter as you say, i was just trying to point out the fact that it was possible to make a character like PT. Whatever your doubts, it has been done and therefore it could happen again.

 

[KMDP]

That's not realistic. No entirely new fighter has ever launched with more then 15 that I remember.

Adding to your point.
The original Soul Edge had about 10 characters in Arcades, then 15 by the time of it's home release (which was version three).

Dead or Alive had 9 characters, and 11 characters in version 2.

The fact that FighterZ has 22 entirely unique characters, considering it's graphics hurdles, is actually pretty impressive.

 

[Iridium]

ZephyrZ , so basically, Volvagia, in the manga, was owned by Link as a pet as a child (and he was quite small at first). However, Ganondorf was able to possess it to do whatever he wanted him to do later when Link was older, and Link was essentially forced to kill it in the end, for there was nothing else he could do to save him.

I get those memories everytime I play OoT 3D, and it hurts.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Remember that DQ spin off with that really well made claymated OP

 

[Enchess]

Oh yeah, on the topic of FE, I don't think sales are the sole reason a series "deserves" reps.

FE and Pokemon have a lot of characters. A lot. There's tons of characters who are popular and important to FE who will probably never make it in. Tiki, Sigurd, Lyn, Hector, Ephraim and Eirika, BK (although he has a chance right now), Alm and Celica, and Azura are all characters I've seen requested.

Meanwhile Metroid is almost entirely about Samus. Sylux is really the only popular character yet to be in the game. Unlike FE, Metroid isn't a character driven game, it's all about Samus. There's a reason she's in the game twice. That's why it has so few reps - now that Ridley is in there's no "must have" characters left.

That's not as much of an excuse for DK though. I've still got my fingers crossed for a unique Dixie, but I'm not expecting it.

Yeah. This is why FE is fine numbers wise (could use a lot of help variety wise, but that's a different point). It's also why Xenoblade and DK getting more reps than they currently have seems like a good idea. Metroid is now 100% covered for me. Ridley was the only glaring omission and DS the only logical addition after him.

 

[Iridium]

ZephyrZ , so basically, Volvagia, in the manga, was owned by Link as a pet (and he was quite small at first), but Ganondorf was able to possess it to do whatever he wanted him to do later when Link was older, and Link was essentially forced to kill it in the end, for there was nothing else he could do to save him.

I get those memories everytime I play OoT 3D, and it hurts.

And then there's this image:

 

[Chrono.]

That's not realistic. No entirely new fighter has ever launched with more then 15 that I remember.

KOF is probably one of the few ones that did.

'94 had 24 characters. But to be fair that's also a 3v3 game.

 

[KMDP]

KOF is probably one of the few ones that did.

'94 had 24 characters. But to be fair that's also a 3v3 game.

And even then, didn't King of Fighters build off of what Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting laid down?

 

[Idon]

Adding to your point.
The original Soul Edge had about 10 characters in Arcades, then 15 by the time of it's home release (which was version three).

Dead or Alive had 9 characters, and 11 characters in version 2.

The fact that FighterZ has 22 entirely unique characters, considering it's graphics hurdles, is actually pretty impressive.

Yeah.
The only reason it even MANAGED to get 22, is due to the fact the engine is re-used engine from Guilty Gear re-purposed for Dragonball.

A much more fair comparison would be Guilty Gear Xrd's original release on Arcade, which had only THIRTEEN total characters, due to the majority of the time being spent on making the engine.

 

[Arcanir]

As Nintendo doesn't release sales numbers unless it surpasses a million sales, I sadly had to use VGChartz.

Regardless, my point was that Metroid doesn't quite sell as well as Fire Emblem worldwide. Metroid definitely sells better in the West then in Japan while Fire Emblem sells more evenly worldwide.

Eh, I can understand that, but my issue with using VGChartz as a source here is that its numbers can be horribly off, so either game can be anywhere higher or lower depending on how they fudged the numbers. It's particularly the case since Nintendo referred to Samus Returns as having "firm sales" and the Americas is the biggest market between it and Japan, so it could be a lot better then VGChartz is suggesting here (and it wouldn't be the first time they lowballed by a large amount, Pokémon BW is off by over a million).

As for the second point, I can definitely see that being the case nowadays due to how well Awakening and Fates sold, but admittedly the lack of a major title for Metroid to compare them to makes it hard to say for certain.

 

[RandomAce]

And even then, didn't King of Fighters build off of what Fatal Fury and Art of Fighting laid down?

Not really.

The sprites, engine, and some of the mechanics have been changed. Their not really comparable to eachother at all.

The only thing KOF 94’ has in common is that it’s a fighting game and that it has AOF and FF characters in it, but other than that it’s an entirely different game that spun into a series that surpassed both of them. (Take it from someone who used to be a KOF fanatic. I still like the series and I know a lot about the games).

 

[Pit93]

Smash Bros timeline game

Smash 64:

Owned it: Yes (Wii Virtual Console)
Played it: Yes (Played it back in the day on a friend's N64 from time to time)
Age: 6
Series I had NOT played by then (it's easier this way around):

Melee:

Owned it: Yes
Played it: Yes
Age: 9 (requested it for my birthday :D )
Series I had NOT played by then:

Brawl:

Owned it: Yes.
Played it: Yes
Age: 15
Series I had NOT played by then:

Smash 4:

Owned it: Yes
Played it: Yes
Age: 22
Series I had NOT played by then: (still haven't played Earthbound lol)

 

[DevaAshera]

Eh, I can understand that, but my issue with using VGChartz as a source here is that its numbers can be horribly off, so either game can be anywhere higher or lower depending on how they fudged the numbers. It's particularly the case since Nintendo referred to Samus Returns as having "firm sales" and the Americas is the biggest market between it and Japan, so it could be a lot better then VGChartz is suggesting here (and it wouldn't be the first time they lowballed by a large amount, Pokémon BW is off by over a million).

As for the second point, I can definitely see that being the case nowadays due to how well Awakening and Fates sold, but admittedly the lack of a major title for Metroid to compare them to makes it hard to say for certain.

Yeah, though I'd say that Returns isn't doing as well as Awakening or Fates since Nintendo only said firm sales.

Outside of Prime, I don't recall Metroid ever having killer sales, which is a shame since it's one of Nintendo's best.

 

[KMDP]

Yeah.
The only reason it even MANAGED to get 22, is due to the fact the engine is re-used engine from Guilty Gear re-purposed for Dragonball.

A much more fair comparison would be Guilty Gear Xrd's original release on Arcade, which had only THIRTEEN total characters, due to the majority of the time being spent on making the engine.

Smash 64's roster seems small compared to later Smash Games, but it actually had a fairly standard roster size for a fighting game.

I mentioned Soulcalibur before, and I just remembered the Tira DLC stuff.

I actually think the Smash Community has the best handle on the lengths Fighting Game devs have to go through to make the games, entirely because of Sakurai's candidness regarding character development (like, we know that 6 clones don't even take up the time it takes to make one character).

SCVI has 18 characters (not even including Create-A-Soul), considering it's a soft reboot and is being built from the ground up, this number is actually pretty high. People expecting more than that probably have unrealistic expectations for what Team Soul is capable of within a reasonable dev time frame.

Not really.

The sprites, engine, and some of the mechanics have been changed. Their not really comparable to eachother.

The only thing KOF 94’ has in common is that it’s a fighting game and that it has AOF and FF characters in it.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[OurBraveHero]

So as far as I can find, the Nindies Direct tomorrow isn't even being livestreamed in Japan or other regions so... why exactly are people claiming they're going to be surprising everyone with an Indie-game rep for Smash or some other secret Smash announcement during the direct when (from what I can tell by looking it up) it's only getting an English Stream?

 

[RandomAce]

Yeah.
The only reason it even MANAGED to get 22, is due to the fact the engine is re-used engine from Guilty Gear re-purposed for Dragonball.

A much more fair comparison would be Guilty Gear Xrd's original release on Arcade, which had only THIRTEEN total characters, due to the majority of the time being spent on making the engine.

I heard Dragonball FighterZ had a hellish development cycle.

I guess that’s why there seems to be a lot of similar chracaters. We got like 2 Gokus, Vegetas, and Gohans in the base roster. Goku Black has an entirely different moveset (aside from your Kamehamehas) but they definitely had Goku and heavily based off of him. Not to mention DLC seems to ride off of this as well,
somewhat with Bardock and definitely Base Goku and Vegeta being based off of their respective fighters.

 

[Zinith]

Oh, forgot to the whole "what if you had full control" thing. Anyways...

No cuts....

BUT

All the Yoshi content. Kamek, Boshi, Poochy and Baby Bowser are newcomers. 4 new Yoshi stages that AREN'T the opening levels of his games. Grinders, Prince Froggy and Bandit as ATs. Fuzzies, Huffin Puffins and Yoshi Eggs as items. 60 new tracks (there aren't even that many tracks, I'll just remix multiple times). The Story Mode will literally have Yoshi be the unambiguous Hero that saves the world. I'll even slip in subliminal messages to make you love Yoshi.

 

[Idon]

I heard Dragonball FighterZ had a hellish development cycle.

I guess that’s why there seems to be a lot of similar chracaters. We got like 2 Gokus, Vegetas, and Gohans in the base roster. Goku Black has an entirely different moveset (aside from your Kamehamehas) but they definitely had Goku and heavily based off of him. Not to mention DLC seems to ride off of this as well,
somewhat with Bardock and definitely Base Goku and Vegeta being based off of their respective fighters.

Nah, there's a lot of Gokus and Vegetas because Japan loves Gokus and Vegetas forms, and it shows because you can see the effort put into them. In Xenoverse 2, there's a form for every period of Goku's life, including different stances, quotes, and moves. They're obsessed.

And even though they share some surface level similarities, but they play EXTREMELY different, far more different than even most of the semi-clones in Smash even if they share some move animations. And for Gohan, it's practically a Samus/Zero Suit Samus situation.

Bardock himself, is actually nothing like Goku besides the hair, and Base Goku and Vegeta each have their own entirely new gimmicks unique to them.

 

[perfectchaos83]

I've heard that this rumor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSo5ue1LnhQ&feature=youtu.be has been discussed in Japan recently

Which is odd because it has some massive holes in it. It mentions Ashley, Shovel Knight as what's assumed to be characters and it says the "Belmont" was not chosen because Bomberman was more popular. But it also talks about why Bomberman didn't end up as a character.

Do you know what was even being discussed about it? Cause there's no reason to humor this leak in the slightest.

 

[KMDP]

I heard Dragonball FighterZ had a hellish development cycle.

I guess that’s why there seems to be a lot of similar chracaters. We got like 2 Gokus, Vegetas, and Gohans in the base roster. Goku Black has an entirely different moveset (aside from your Kamehamehas) but they definitely had Goku and heavily based off of him. Not to mention DLC seems to ride off of this as well,
somewhat with Bardock and definitely Base Goku and Vegeta being based off of their respective fighters.

The thing about having 2 Gohans is... well...

The two Gohans are entirely different. One is Super Saiyan 2 Gohan from the Cell Saga and the other is Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga. They have very, very few similarities.

The two Goku and Vegeta forms are different from each other too, though obviously not to the same extent as the two Gohans. They have different fighting styles with some, but surprisingly little, overlap.

Goku Black is different again from either Goku, and the DLC Goku and Vegeta are even more different.

Claiming they're all the same is very surface level.
Basically, what Idon said.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Despite the obvious uniqueness of the Gokus and Vegetas at a gameplay level, I'm sure ArcSystem didn't mind the fact that they could use the same 3D rendered models for several of these characters, especially considering how cinematic they go with the game.

 

[KMDP]

Do you know what was even being discussed about it? Cause there's no reason to humor this leak in the slightest.

Maybe Japan is going through the bargaining stage regarding Ashley like what the Waluigi fans did.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Despite the obvious uniqueness of the Gokus and Vegetas at a gameplay level, I'm sure ArcSystem didn't mind the fact that they could use the same 3D rendered models for several of these characters, especially considering how cinematic they go with the game.

Oh, definitely. Any developer will gladly take shortcuts as long as it doesn't hurt the quality of the product itself. At least, they're sure it wouldn't. Obviously sometimes things happen balance-wise, which does hurt quality for some people.

 

[Soulsaint]

So glad I read every post. That Sheik Final Smash is so awesome and so much better.

Also, I'd be totally on board with Poipole in Smash. I absolutely hated that you can't get that ultra beast at low level (considering it's technically a starter pokemon). If Uktra sun/ultra moon was done correctly. You'd be starting with Poipole because you find it somewhere. It would connect perfectly into the UB storyline, you could have characters in game referencing they never seen a pokemon like that before only to have them trying to steal Poipole from you. It's also just really cool. But the pokemon series is much too conservative for things like that it seems.

 

[Shroob]

Man, remember when Shantae was one of the biggest Smash4 ballot picks on places like Reddit?

I'm surprised Wayforward has been completely silent this time, they even backed the "Shantae4Smash" movement.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Man, remember when Shantae was one of the biggest Smash4 ballot picks on places like Reddit?

I'm surprised Wayforward has been completely silent this time, they even backed the "Shantae4Smash" movement.

If she's in and they know, they would be silent about it (as YachtClub were when they clearly knew ahead of time Shovel Knight was an AT)

If she's not in, they wouldn't have been contacted, meaning they know for sure, so they wouldn't bother

 

[Noipoi]

Man, remember when Shantae was one of the biggest Smash4 ballot picks on places like Reddit?

I'm surprised Wayforward has been completely silent this time, they even backed the "Shantae4Smash" movement.

Perhaps they're so silent because...

SHANTAE CONFIRMED??????

Just kidding, it probably means nothing.

 

[KMDP]

So glad I read every post. That Sheik Final Smash is so awesome and so much better.

Also, I'd be totally on board with Poipole in Smash. I absolutely hated that you can't get that ultra beast at low level (considering it's technically a starter pokemon). If Uktra sun/ultra moon was done correctly. You'd be starting with Poipole because you find it somewhere. It would connect perfectly into the UB storyline, you could have characters in game referencing they never seen a pokemon like that before only to have them trying to steal Poipole from you. It's also just really cool. But the pokemon series is much too conservative for things like that it seems.

Having Poipole as the starter would have made the Ultra games so much more interesting.

Really, they should have had a single Pokémon release instead of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon (call it Pokémon: Eclipse or something), have Poipole as the starter (like Pikachu is in Yellow) and base the story around that, as you suggested. They could even have made it possible to get Rowlet, Litten and Popplio all in one game like Yellow as well.

Have all four of the Recon squad in one game, having them be version exclusive characters was kind of silly.
Have the Aether Foundation and Team Rainbow Rocket going to war, rather than undermining Lusamine's villain threat level by having her be hijacked by Giovanni.
Have the islands go in a different order for extra variety. Maybe you could have gone around Melemele in reverse too to keep it as your first island but shake it up a bit.

 

[QrowinSP]

So where do you go from Master Core? I thought it was an excellent boss for the series.

I was thinking about this, and I had an idea that I think is very fitting for Smash Ultimate. Basically, all of the series's final bosses will be available to fight somehow.

Master Hand/Crazy Hand/Master Core will be fought at the end of classic mode.
Giga Bowser will be fought as a boss in story mode.
Tabuu will be at the end of a third, possibly unlockable, special orders mode. Tabuu orders.
The story mode will have its own final boss at the end which is this game's addition, so it's not just treading old ground.

Everyone's here, am I right?

 

[Noipoi]

Having Poipole as the starter would have made the Ultra games so much more interesting.

Really, they should have had a single Pokémon release instead of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon (call it Pokémon: Eclipse or something), have Poipole as the starter (like Pikachu is in Yellow) and base the story around that, as you suggested. They could even have made it possible to get Rowlet, Litten and Popplio all in one game like Yellow as well.

Have all four of the Recon squad in one game, having them be version exclusive characters was kind of silly.
Have the Aether Foundation and Team Rainbow Rocket going to war, rather than undermining Lusamine's villain threat level by having her be hijacked by Giovanni.
Have the islands go in a different order for extra variety. Maybe you could have gone around Melemele in reverse too to keep it as your first island but shake it up a bit.

Poipole, the best Pokemon.
As a starter
Stop taunting me with things that will never happen!

 

[KMDP]

Poipole, the best Pokemon.
As a starter
Stop taunting me with things that will never happen!

I'm tempted to finally make that Pokémon fan game I've been wanting to make, but make the Starter Pokémon Poipole.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm tempted to finally make that Pokémon fan game I've been wanting to make, but make the Starter Pokémon Poipole.

If you ever do you better drop me a link!