Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Enchess]

By pressing Up and B.

Kinda like how Mario and Luigi can shoot fireballs without the Fire Flower.

Or how Robin can use Nosferatu without being a Dark Mage.

And how Olimar can pluck Pikmin without growing them from an Onion first.

This is Smash, not Metroid.

The rules in the characters' home games don't apply here.

Or Samus' suit has the Screw Attack upgrade, which would look identical in every way from the outside and also be consistent with both Smash and Metroid. You are arbitrarily deciding she doesn't have the upgrade just to make it so she does the attack without it when there's nothing suggesting her suit isn't equipped with it.

It's really not that crazy to think that Smash items can function differently from props in characters movesets that are logically the same item. Why is the Homerun Bat different from Ness' bat beyond "the Homerun Bat isn't the same bat"? Why can't Ness charge up his bat he already owns in a similar way? It's not hard to see how maybe Screw Attack could be the same way. Samus' suit is equipped with it, but it's also an item anyone can use, and the context decides what exactly it does when used. This stuff happens in games constantly.

Also, you've reminded me Screw Attack isn't even the best example. It's actually Pokemon Trainer's pokeballs, which are immune from the semantics game your playing because you can't pretend Squirtle is using the Pokeball technique without the use of a Pokeball.

I'm also gonna throw Pitfall out there, since Villager is definitely burying one with his shovel attack.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I don't think it's as simple as you believe

Edit: I'm not going to say Sora's not in. I just don't believe it's that simple

They defer it to Nomura because it would be bad relations to just ignore him and proceed to go with negotiations to Nintendo. He does after all makes the KH games. Now of course Disney will still have to be okay with the exact details etc.

 

[DevaAshera]

I don't think it's as simple as you believe

Edit: I'm not going to say Sora's not in. I just don't believe it's that simple

Never implied it was simple, there would still be deals to be made, but he directly said they do nothing with the Kingdom Hearts IP without Nomura's blessing. I'm simply stating facts.
Getting Sora into Smash would likely be very similar to getting Cloud in Smash. Sakurai would likely just meet with a Disney rep and Nomura at the same time.

Disney has allowed Sora to appear in Final Fantasy Worlds on PS4 and both he and Riku in Final Fantasy Record Keeper on Mobile, yes, both SE games, but it shows they are willing to let Sora appear in crossover titles.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Dark Pit really didn't get a proper reveal announcement (he was merely teased in Palutena's trailer). That makes him the only newcomer from Smash 4 to not get one as Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt got ones after the fact

Very true. It's a shame that DLC characters didn't get a proper cinematic trailer too. Would have been great to have a Cloud, Ryu and Bayonetta reveal trailer.

 

[Nethermoosen]

That, and, let's humor the idea that there are ONLY going to be 103 stages in the game, no more.


Every 3rd party character not an echo has come with a stage. This could change, but let's be real, it's unlikely that they get a 3rd party character without a home stage.


What are our options when dealing with Square?


Because if it has to be a character who isn't from a new IP, it can literally only be a Final Fantasy 7 character, or from an existing franchise.


So either Zach/Sephiroth, both of which I 'guess' are possible.... or Geno.

And this also assumes we get no Isaac, Banjo or Heihachi.

 

[Zinith]

Very true. It's a shame that DLC characters didn't get a proper cinematic trailer too. Would have been great to have a Cloud, Ryu and Bayonetta reveal trailer.

I can't help but notice you omitted a particular.... Fire Emblem character

 

[Shroob]

And this also assumes we get no Isaac, Banjo or Heihachi.

Honestly, I'm already content with this game, but if the final Smash direct dropped all the Vergeben 3+Geno, this would hands down be the perfect roster to me. It's already godlike, but Ken and Geno on top of that would be magnifique.

 

[Enchess]

I can't help but notice you omitted a particular.... Fire Emblem character

Is it bad that as someone who skipped most of the DLC, I'm actually most looking forward to Corrin of the DLC characters? And I don't even like them as a character or Fates. I just like the transforming gimmick.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Never implied it was simple, there would still be deals to be made, but he directly said they do nothing with the Kingdom Hearts IP without Nomura's blessing. I'm simply stating facts.
Getting Sora into Smash would likely be very similar to getting Cloud in Smash. Sakurai would likely just meet with a Disney rep and Nomura at the same time.

Disney has allowed Sora to appear in Final Fantasy Worlds on PS4 and both he and Riku in Final Fantasy Record Keeper on Mobile, yes, both SE games, but it shows they are willing to let Sora appear in crossover titles.

Yeah, but they've also rejected Sora apparering in titles.

Wasn't he rejected from being in that FF Fighting game?

Or is that just a rumor?

 

[DevaAshera]

I can't help but notice you omitted a particular.... Fire Emblem character

Corrin kinda got one..even if it was reused and edited from Fates itself.

Yeah, but they've also rejected Sora apparering in titles.

Wasn't he rejected from being in that FF Fighting game?

Or is that just a rumor?

It's neither, its actually that Dissidia Final Fantasy began life as a Kingdom Hearts fighting game but Disney didn't like the idea of characters like Mickey, Donald, and Goofy being able to beat each other up, so SE decided to make it a FF game instead.

Disney also allowed use of the Kingdom Hearts designs for Cloud, Sephiroth, and Squall to be used in it's sequel and Sephiroth's KH look is in base Dissidia NT.

I honestly can't think of anything they denied Sora for that is publicly known.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

And this also assumes we get no Isaac, Banjo or Heihachi.

Unless they are planned for DLC with the stages coming with them

 

[Nethermoosen]

Honestly, I'm already content with this game, but if the final Smash direct dropped all the Vergeben 3+Geno, this would hands down be the perfect roster to me. It's already godlike, but Ken and Geno on top of that would be magnifique.

Agreed. I was cool with it after E3. 5 characters later, I’m blown away. Waiting on more characters feels weird because I actually have K. Rool. I want Skull Kid, always have, but K. Rool will still over shadow him.

Bonus points for: Ken, Skull Kid, Shadow, Geno. Also, Heihachi, because my smash rival is a Tekken fan and I have Ryu as a SF fan. We want to settle it in smash.

 

[Enchess]

Unless they are planned for DLC with the stages coming with them

Assuming 103 stages (which for the record, I definitely don't think is final count), is it that crazy to think Banjo could share a DK stage and Isaac could share a FE stage? You know, like Fire Emblem in Melee?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ryu and Corrin got acceptable trailers. They weren't CGI but they were pretty faithful to their games.

Ryu had the redone version of the Street Fighter 2 opening and Corrin got a scene straight out of Fates.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Unless they are planned for DLC with the stages coming with them

I mean, you’re right, but I’m specifically talking base game in Schroob’s scenario.

 

[Shroob]

But really.


The only reason I'm so confident that it's Geno is:



1: We already have confirmation that the ballot is indeed being used due to K.Rool's comment by Sakurai.

2: If there's only 103 stages, it HAS to either be FF7, or SMRPG, there's no other choice.



I'm not even going to include the Mii Costume, since while I think it means nothing, we know Sakurai is aware of Geno's popularity.

 

[HyruleHero]

Yeah, but they've also rejected Sora apparering in titles.

Wasn't he rejected from being in that FF Fighting game?

Or is that just a rumor?

Pretty sure I heard somewhere that was just a rumour and Nomura decided not to add Sora, I think Disney has been kind with giving Sora a chance with crossover games.

 

[Nethermoosen]

But really.


The only reason I'm so confident that it's Geno is:



1: We already have confirmation that the ballot is indeed being used due to K.Rool's comment by Sakurai.

2: If there's only 103 stages, it HAS to either be FF7, or SMRPG, there's no other choice.



I'm not even going to include the Mii Costume, since while I think it means nothing, we know Sakurai is aware of Geno's popularity.

Don’t forget about the chairs. Chairs are made by people. So are puppets....

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I can't help but notice you omitted a particular.... Fire Emblem character

Oh my god! Which one?

Oh damn right how could i forget our boi Roy!

Sorry i omitted Corrin but i'm not really a Fire Emblem fan... yet. Nevertheless her reveal trailer would have been great to see, fan or not.

Edit: In fact i just red DevaAshera 's post and i'm going to watch it right now...
Edit 2: Turns out... it was not very good.

 

[HyruleHero]

there's no other choice.

I mean that pretty much wrong, any FF character could be on Clouds stage it doesn't have to be FF7 and Sora could be represented by FF stage as well considering he's a crossover character. Don't ever assume you know what Sakurai will do.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Corrin kinda got one..even if it was reused and edited from Fates itself.

It's neither, its actually that Dissidia Final Fantasy began life as a Kingdom Hearts fighting game but Disney didn't like the idea of characters like Mickey, Donald, and Goofy being able to beat each other up, so SE decided to make it a FF game instead.

Disney also allowed use of the Kingdom Hearts designs for Cloud, Sephiroth, and Squall to be used in it's sequel and Sephiroth's KH look is in base Dissidia NT.

I honestly can't think of anything they denied Sora for that is publicly known.

Disney kind of suck.

Mickey Mouse fighting game needs to happen

 

[Nethermoosen]

I mean that pretty much wrong, any FF character could be on Clouds stage it doesn't have to be FF7 and Sora could be represented by FF stage as well considering he's a crossover character. Don't ever assume you know what Sakurai will do.

I think Sakurai knows, even though it is a FF locale, that Midgar would look weird with Squall in it.

 

[Shroob]

I mean that pretty much wrong, any FF character could be on Clouds stage it doesn't have to be FF7 and Sora could be represented by FF stage as well considering he's a crossover character. Don't ever assume you know what Sakurai will do.

The FF logo is clearly said to be FF7.



Other franchises have generic logos as a 'one size fits all', but the FF logo represents Final Fantasy 7 only, we've seen it called as such.


Unless the character is coming from FF7, it's not going to have FF, it'd have to have a completely different logo, or else the logo wouldn't be called "Final Fantasy 7"


That would be like the Zelda Logo called "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time"

 

[ZephyrZ]

Is it bad that as someone who skipped most of the DLC, I'm actually most looking forward to Corrin of the DLC characters? And I don't even like them as a character or Fates. I just like the transforming gimmick.

Not at all. That the only reason I like Corrin, and I've actually used them as a secondary for a while. Easily my most played DLC character after Mewtwo.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I didn't get most of the DLC until recently and I don't particularly like Corrin.

I died using one of Corrin's aerials which projects you in a weird direction.

Corrin is really awkward to control for me

 

[DevaAshera]

I think Sakurai knows, even though it is a FF locale, that Midgar would look weird with Squall in it.

Well..Squall, Terra, and others have been on Midgar in Dissidia NT..and Smash Cloud is using his Dissidia design..

 

[Blargg888]

Or Samus' suit has the Screw Attack upgrade, which would look identical in every way from the outside and also be consistent with both Smash and Metroid. You are arbitrarily deciding she doesn't have the upgrade just to make it so she does the attack without it when there's nothing suggesting her suit isn't equipped with it.

It's really not that crazy to think that Smash items can function differently from props in characters movesets that are logically the same item. Why is the Homerun Bat different from Ness' bat beyond "the Homerun Bat isn't the same bat"? Why can't Ness charge up his bat he already owns in a similar way? It's not hard to see how maybe Screw Attack could be the same way. Samus' suit is equipped with it, but it's also an item anyone can use, and the context decides what exactly it does when used. This stuff happens in games constantly.

Also, you've reminded me Screw Attack isn't even the best example. It's actually Pokemon Trainer's pokeballs, which are immune from the semantics game your playing because you can't pretend Squirtle is using the Pokeball technique without the use of a Pokeball.

I'm also gonna throw Pitfall out there, since Villager is definitely burying one with his shovel attack.

I'm gonna be real with you here:

I cannot even tell what the Hell you're talking about. Like, what point are you exactly trying to make here?

I died using one of Corrin's aerials which projects you in a weird direction.

Back-air is a pretty good move. It propels Corrin away from the opponent/towards the stage at a good distance, and it doesn't have as much lag as say, R.O.B.'s back-air.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Disney kind of suck.

Mickey Mouse fighting game needs to happen

With Marvel and Star Wars, Mickey Mouse's fighting game would crush every competitors in its way.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm gonna be real with you here:

I cannot even tell what the Hell you're talking about. Like, what point are you exactly trying to make here?


Back-air is a pretty good move. It propels Corrin away from the opponent/towards the stage at a good distance, and it doesn't have as much lag as say, R.O.B.'s back-air.

ROB is one of my most used characters and I'm used to his aerials. But I guess I just haven't used Corrin very much

And the first time I did, I died from using it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I can picture it now - Micky Mouse, Pluto, Donald Duck and Goofy are all happily skipping along a flower-filled meadow when, suddenly, Micky decides to randomly trip Pluto like the little prick his is. Next thing you know, Donald is being hurtled through the air and Pluto is going at Goofy with a hammer.

"Somethings gone wrong in the happy-go-lucky world of Disney. Introducing Mickey Mouse Smash House, where all your favorite Disney characters go toe to to in one 4-player, star-studded slam fest! Only on lol.disney.com/games."

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I wonder if Sephiroth is a contender at all (considering that the square leak has any value).

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Ryu and Corrin got acceptable trailers. They weren't CGI but they were pretty faithful to their games.

Ryu had the redone version of the Street Fighter 2 opening and Corrin got a scene straight out of Fates.

The Ryu one was perfect, such a shame it leaked beforehand, would have been such a great moment.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Assuming 103 stages (which for the record, I definitely don't think is final count), is it that crazy to think Banjo could share a DK stage and Isaac could share a FE stage? You know, like Fire Emblem in Melee?

Yes, because since Brawl every single playable series had a home stage, the only exception being R.O.B. who is a real life item rather than a in-game character, so they opt for classic NES stages for him.

And even in Melee a Fire Emblem stage was planned, and if it had a normal developmemt cicle instead of a rushed 13 months one it would have probably made in.


If those 103 stages are all, which I doubt, then there are not going to be any newcomers from new series. No Isaac, no Banjo, no Rhythm Heaven.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Sukapon: “Sukapon’s omission is purely a matter of financial and legal issues…For this game, we were planning to let characters get on Sukapon and ride around causing havoc, but it was cut.”

Why does Sukapon have legal troubles?

It doesn't matter now since he's in as an AT. But isn't he owned by Nintendo?

 

[MBRedboy31]

Disney kind of suck.

Mickey Mouse fighting game needs to happen

I mean, you could kinda do that in Disney Infinity at least, they were completely fine with having some of their biggest stars mercilessly beat each other up in that apparently despite all the times they weren’t previously, so, hmm...

You can even give Mickey a gun, either an old timey pirate pistol or a blunderbuss to be fair, but it still counts haha. You could also let him drive a car with built in machine guns (although the later versions of Infinity modified the machine gun model to look more like a cap gun.)

(Side note to go with the Kingdom Hearts discussion, Mickey’s Kingdom Hearts design was playable in Infinity 3.0, but only via a rare event only Power Disc.)

 

[Nonno Umby]

Why does Sukapon have legal troubles?

It doesn't matter now since he's in as an AT. But isn't he owned by Nintendo?

Yeah, I haven't found any real source about it. It seems to be a SourceGaming error, because Sakurai stated that Sukapon was cut from Melee due to "adult reasons", and since Sakurai also blamed "adult reasons" for James Bond and Banjo, they just assumed that he meant copyright issues also for Sukapon, when that statement is so vague that it could also mean bugs, glitchs or even low priority.

I mean, Sukapon was a sticker in Brawl, and I really doubt they went out of their way to get its rights in the few years between Melee and Brawl, if they didn't had them already.

 

[Shroob]

Assuming we won't get anymore newcomer reveals until the next Smash Direct;

Assuming the next Smash Direct will be the last Newcomer dump;

Assuming that Vergeben is 100% right and;

Assuming the SE character is Geno....


Is this not a perfect roster? Is this not what Smash fans have wanted since Brawl, more or less?

 

[Nonno Umby]

View attachment 159306


Assuming we won't get anymore newcomer reveals until the next Smash Direct;

Assuming the next Smash Direct will be the last Newcomer dump;

Assuming that Vergeben is 100% right and;

Assuming the SE character is Geno....


Is this not a perfect roster? Is this not what Smash fans have wanted since Brawl, more or less?

Eh, it's still missing Isaac and Bandana Dee who are popular picks, and for me not having Elma is a shame.

9.5/10, so close to perfection...but still not there.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

View attachment 159306


Assuming we won't get anymore newcomer reveals until the next Smash Direct;

Assuming the next Smash Direct will be the last Newcomer dump;

Assuming that Vergeben is 100% right and;

Assuming the SE character is Geno....


Is this not a perfect roster? Is this not what Smash fans have wanted since Brawl, more or less?

The only way it'd be better for me is if it had Dixie. But even without Dixie I'd take that as perfection

Though, for the sake of N3ON and the other Isaac fans, perhaps him as well

 

[MasterOfKnees]

View attachment 159306


Assuming we won't get anymore newcomer reveals until the next Smash Direct;

Assuming the next Smash Direct will be the last Newcomer dump;

Assuming that Vergeben is 100% right and;

Assuming the SE character is Geno....


Is this not a perfect roster? Is this not what Smash fans have wanted since Brawl, more or less?

Isaac is the only really notable omission on there from a Brawl speculation point of view (and Krystal, but you know...), and I think Bandana Dee and Dixie are notable exclusions from Smash 4 speculation and onwards. Still, it's crazy we're even in a situation where we could potentially get what could be perceived as the perfect roster, of course you can't please everybody and some people will always feel like there are some characters missing, but as far as characters with a long history in Smash speculation goes we've almost got them all covered. It's the kind of roster people would have written off as being too good to be true 3 months ago.