Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

So if we get a Shin Megami Tensei protagonist over a Persona protagonist I’m actually gonna be surprised tbh, Persona IS Atlus’ biggest series, it has transcended the SMT series in terms of sales and has continued to flourish in recent times, while mainline SMT has dwindled in recent times, especially with the recent release of Persona 5 and Persona being the more user-friendly series overall I really feel Sakurai would lean more towards Persona.

That’s just me though.

....or we could have both represented with the mascot of both series', Jack Frost. Seriously, guys! (btw, hey Nintenzilla!!! Awesome to see you around still!)

 

[SmashShadow]

This is the first smash game where I'm not even sure if we'll get a new Pokemon. There hasn't been any defining Pokemon from gen 7 yet that sticks out in the way that ones like Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, and Greninja have. Lets not forget that we didn't get reps from gens 3 and 5 as well. They could definitely add one, but there just doesn't seem to be any urgency for any character in particular.

 

[NintenZ]

....or we could have both represented with the mascot of both series', Jack Frost. Seriously, guys!

I actually wouldn’t be opposed to this at all (He’s actually my favorite Persona period)... But...

He’s earned it I feel, there’s so much to work with in terms of a moveset and his game has been beyond successful considering it made a previously-niche property into a mainstream gaming franchise. Jack could even be in his moveset since he has the Wild-Card. Out of any SMT-related character I feel he’s the best pick.

Jus’ sayin’

(Also hi Luigi the President nice seeing you bud!)

 

[Luigi The President]

I actually wouldn’t be opposed to this at all (He’s actually my favorite Persona period)... But...View attachment 159089
He’s earned it I feel, there’s so much to work with in terms of a moveset and his game has been beyond successful considering it made a previously-niche property into a mainstream gaming franchise. Jack could even be in his moveset since he has the Wild-Card. Out of any SMT-related character I feel he’s the best pick.

Jus’ sayin’

Persona definitely got its breakthrough with 4, though. You can even argue 3, but 4's been it's own franchise for what, a decade now?
Joker's incredibly recent and his impact on the series, though obviously large, hasn't quite sized up to Narukami's yet.

I personally don't feel any of the protagonists should be playable, it'd cause quite a bit of division. It's different from Cloud; Cloud's a true gaming powerhouse. Cloud is indisputably the most popular FF character in mainstream gaming, and doesn't really have to wrestle with any protagonists for this.

With Joker, he definitely is overpowered by Narukami in many aspects, and even by Minato in some.
Jack Frost would represent both Persona and SMT, has been around for decades, rich and vast history with Nintendo, still utilized by Atlus today. I'd say this little guy has earned it too.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

This is the first smash game where I'm not even sure if we'll get a new Pokemon. There hasn't been any defining Pokemon from gen 7 yet that sticks out in the way that ones like Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, and Greninja have. Lets not forget that we didn't get reps from gens 3 and 5 as well. They could definitely add one, but there just doesn't seem to be any urgency for any character in particular.

If Mario and Zelda can sit a game out when it comes to getting newcomers, so could Pokémon

 

[Jetsurge]

This is the first smash game where I'm not even sure if we'll get a new Pokemon. There hasn't been any defining Pokemon from gen 7 yet that sticks out in the way that ones like Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, and Greninja have. Lets not forget that we didn't get reps from some other gens 3 and 5 as well. They could definitely add one, but there doesn't seem to be any urgency for any character in particular.

Greninj wasn't really that defined when he was added to Smash 4. He only became huge when Ash-Greninja became a thing. They've already added so many new Pokeball Pokemon and the Ultrabeasts are no where to be seen yet. I think we'll get a newcomer along with a stage themed around the Ultra beasts.

 

[Idon]

So if we get a Shin Megami Tensei protagonist over a Persona protagonist I’m actually gonna be surprised tbh, Persona IS Atlus’ biggest series, it has transcended the SMT series in terms of sales and has continued to flourish in recent times, while mainline SMT has dwindled in recent times, especially with the recent release of Persona 5 and Persona being the more user-friendly series overall I really feel Sakurai would lean more towards Persona.

That’s just me though.

I'd actually say SMT is making a well-timed resurgence with SMTV finally coming back to home consoles after almost 2 decades. SMT4 and 4A being relegated to handhelds is probably the only time we've ever "dwindled" and that's just in graphical quality as 4 and 4A both sold reasonably well.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

If Mario and Zelda can sit a game out when it comes to getting newcomers, so could Pokémon

Except if Zelda and Mario are getting a newcomer (Skull Kid and Geno maaaaybe?).

 

[WingedSupernova]

I actually wouldn’t be opposed to this at all (He’s actually my favorite Persona period)... But...View attachment 159089
He’s earned it I feel, there’s so much to work with in terms of a moveset and his game has been beyond successful considering it made a previously-niche property into a mainstream gaming franchise. Jack could even be in his moveset since he has the Wild-Card. Out of any SMT-related character I feel he’s the best pick.

Jus’ sayin’

(Also hi Luigi the President nice seeing you bud!)

Definitely would be ecstatic to see him appear. Spent the Summer playing through this with my friends and we'd lose our collective minds if he were added as DLC or something.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Greninj wasn't really that defined when he was added to Smash 4. He only became huge when Ash-Greninja became a thing. They've already added so many new Pokeball Pokemon and the Ultrabeasts are no where to be seen yet. I think we'll get a newcomer along with a stage themed around the Ultra beasts.

An ultra beast would probably be the hypest way to do it.

Specifically Lusamine fused with Nihilego.

 

[Zinith]

Except if Zelda and Mario are getting a newcomer (Skull Kid and Geno maaaaybe?).

He was talking about the past.

Mario didn't get any newcomers in Brawl, in fact they LOST one (Dr. Mario)
Zelda for Smash 4

 

[Deleted member]

Are we really sure we are getting a Persona representative in Smash?

Like they do have move-set potential, but they are not requested that much and they are not a character like or either.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

If Mario and Zelda can sit a game out when it comes to getting newcomers, so could Pokémon

He was talking about the past.

Mario didn't get any newcomers in Brawl, in fact they LOST one (Dr. Mario)
Zelda for Smash 4

Oh sorry then! That was sooooooo long ago

 

[Luigi The President]

Are we really sure we are getting a Persona representative in Smash?

Like they do have move-set potential, but they are not requested that much and they are not a character like or either.

Nope, we're just discussing the potential of one.
To be fair, a Shin Megami Tensei/Persona newcomer isn't that far out of the realm of possibility. I'd think they were as requested as Simon and more then Bayonetta. Just my own opinion, though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Except if Zelda and Mario are getting a newcomer (Skull Kid and Geno maaaaybe?).

What Zinith said
Brawl had no for Mario but had while Smash 4 had but nobody new from Zelda
Pokémon has had a new fighter for each game so far...

Oh sorry then! That was sooooooo long ago

well oof to me...anywho the Pokémon series can learn to not bring out a new character every game (Fire Emblem aswell, but they don’t have Pokeballs to send their heroes to)

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Personally I'd be okay with Incineroar...

But I'd be even more okay with it if Sceptile were to tag along; with that, we'd have a grand total of 3 fully evolved, entirely independent starters, all from different regions. Taking into consideration Sceptile's popularity boost in '15, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet at this point.

I'm sorry, are we not talking about this anymore?

Honestly I'm kind of burned out on starters at this point, I want them to do something else tbh

Or just not add another pokemon, that's more than fine imo

 

[Idon]

Are we really sure we are getting a Persona representative in Smash?

Like they do have move-set potential, but they are not requested that much and they are not a character like or either.

Well first off, they definitely are: just look around anywhere, the Joker support thread itself is pretty large as well.

Second off, no, I very much doubt that Joker will get in, at least in the base roster, as his game came out way after the project plan. Plus, everything's kinda overshadowed by Jack Frost the mascot.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I’m talking with my smash rival about how we’re going to play our first game once it finishes downloading in the wee hours on the 7th of Dec.

We get only the 8 characters to start, but we want to have a competitive 1v1 match, but we also felt like playing on Big Blue again would be pretty awesome.

So, we decided we’re going to start the match on Final Destination with Big Blue set for the stage morph.

From safe and simple to a chaotic mess in a matter of seconds.

 

[Zinith]

I’m talking with my smash rival about how we’re going to play our first game once it finishes downloading in the wee hours on the 7th of Dec.

We get only the 8 characters to start, but we want to have a competitive 1v1 match, but we also felt like playing on Big Blue again would be pretty awesome.

So, we decided we’re going to start the match on Final Destination with Big Blue set for the stage morph.

From safe and simple to a chaotic mess in a matter of seconds.

I think it's the first 12 characters actually.

 

[NintenZ]

Are we really sure we are getting a Persona representative in Smash?

Like they do have move-set potential, but they are not requested that much and they are not a character like or either.

I mean we never said we were sure but it’s fun to discuss regardless.

Also please don’t fall into the trap of Echo Chambers and vocal minorities, just cause something doesn’t seem like a big request doesn’t mean it isn’t, and I actually know a lot of people who would want a Persona or SMT character.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I think it's the first 12 characters actually.

The E3 direct made it seem like it’s the first 8 because that’s all they show before it starts adding to the screen.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

What Zinith said
Brawl had no for Mario but had while Smash 4 had but nobody new from Zelda
Pokémon has had a new fighter for each game so far...

well oof to me...anywho the Pokémon series can learn to not bring out a new character every game (Fire Emblem aswell, but they don’t have Pokeballs to send their heroes to)

Agreed. But the Pokemon franchise is a marketing monster i'm pretty sure they won't be able to restrain themselves. If it's not Gen 7 it will be some Gen 1 (Pokemon Let's Go) or a future Gen 8 rep. as DLC.

 

[Zippo]

Spoiler

It...it all makes sense now...

 

[Noipoi]

An ultra beast would probably be the hypest way to do it.

Specifically Lusamine fused with Nihilego.

This is my secret want that will never happen.
Mother beast would both be amazing, and the first playable (kinda) human character from the Pokemon series.

 

[lizard1929]

Agreed. But the Pokemon franchise is a marketing monster i'm pretty sure they won't be able to restrain themselves. If it's not Gen 7 it will be some Gen 1 (Pokemon Let's Go) or a future Gen 8 rep. as DLC.

Have we thought of any potential pokemon echo fighters to fill the new pokemon slot?

 

[Nethermoosen]

Agreed. But the Pokemon franchise is a marketing monster i'm pretty sure they won't be able to restrain themselves. If it's not Gen 7 it will be some Gen 1 (Pokemon Let's Go) or a future Gen 8 rep. as DLC.

64: 2 Pokemon
Melee: +2 Pokemon
Brawl: +4 Pokemon
WiiU/3DS: -1 Pokemon(lost Ivy and Squirt)
Ultimate(so far): +2 Pokemon

 

[Luigi The President]

It...it all makes sense now...

Please put that in a spoiler box or something. It'd probably make sense if I could actually read it.

(Hate to sound rude, just for next time keep it in mind, my friend!)

 

[ZephyrZ]

Where's this idea that Gamefreak or The Pokemon Company gets to pick the pokemon newcomer come from? It seemed pretty clear to me from that Greninja interview that Sakurai had a choice in the matter. He picked Greninja.

I could see Gamefreak or TPC showing him the concept art of specific pokemon they want to promote, but I really doubt he's forced to work with a single specific character of their choosing.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Where's this idea that Gamefreak or The Pokemon Company gets to pick the pokemon newcomer come from? It seemed pretty clear to me from that Greninja interview that Sakurai had a choice in the matter. He picked Greninja.

I could see Gamefreak or TPC showing him the concept art of specific pokemon they want to promote, but I really doubt he's forced to work with a single specific character of their choosing.

Idunno. Seems like another one of those arbitrary things people come up with and think it's truth.

 

[MainJPW]

View attachment 159090

It...it all makes sense now...

I can’t even read that small ass text.

 

[Zippo]

I can’t even read that small *** text.

That should work.

https://i.imgtc.com/b1KePnB.jpg

Luigi The President Luigi my bad! Lol

 

[BlueMagician]

I actually haven't seen any Japanese requests for an Atlas rep ...

 

[Idon]

I actually do think an SMT protagonist is the dark horse character that no one really expects when he should at least be noticed (at least more than someone like Takamaru or Ayumi Tachibana which never even got over to the Americas)
Here's all the points SMT actually has going for it:

Longstanding history with Nintendo (since 1987, same year as Final Fantasy for reference)
Instrumental in forming JRPG foundations (picking stats during level up, monster collection, monster fusion, multiple endings based on player choice, dark tones, the list goes on)
Every single game barring SMTII is localized internationally
Every single game barring SMTIII is all on a Nintendo console
Central branch of a large franchise, spawning anime, manga, mobile games
Part of an ensemble cast of iconic demons (Pixie, Jack Frost, Pyro Jack, Alice)
Great moveset potential with said demons, a sword, a gun, etc.
Steady stream of games which all sell well enough to justify a sequel.
Recent game coming out on the Switch.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the only reason an SMT protagonist isn't requested more is simply people are more aware of Jack Frost and Persona.

I mean hell, how many people even know that this meme is from an SMT game and has the SMT logo on it?

 

[Luigi The President]

The points about Dante's voice actor does make me curious. Any substance to that bit?

 

[Delzethin]

Where's this idea that Gamefreak or The Pokemon Company gets to pick the pokemon newcomer come from? It seemed pretty clear to me from that Greninja interview that Sakurai had a choice in the matter. He picked Greninja.

I could see Gamefreak or TPC showing him the concept art of specific pokemon they want to promote, but I really doubt he's forced to work with a single specific character of their choosing.

People tend to assume these other companies force Sakurai's hand, for whatever reason. The truth is a lot less hostile and domineering: it's more of a collaboration, as Sakurai has said himself. They plan ahead, considering who will be prominent by the time the current Smash game will be hitting shelves, among other things.

Though things may be a bit more complicated this time. If the whole "fanservice" angle really is as important as some have speculated, they may have decided to wait to add a newcomer from Gen 7 until early DLC. And there's also the fact that the 'mon that's been getting the biggest push in the anime is in a form that wasn't revealed until mid-2017, a year and a half after the very first project plan came about.

Which raises questions. How far ahead would they have planned? How far ahead is the anime set up, and how early are forms for an entire generation conceptualized? Odds are, Ash's eventual Greninja being his signature 'mon in the Kalos anime was probably one thing that factored into Greninja being chosen for Smash 4...but with some really uncertain timing windows here, things get murky.

Especially when we're talking a form that many people outside the Pokémon fanbase haven't even thought to look for...

 

[Nethermoosen]

Have we thought of any potential pokemon echo fighters to fill the new pokemon slot?

With animation changes to movesets?

Blaziken/Falcon
Wario/Squirtle Squad(I got jokes)
Venonat/Jigglypuff
Blastoise/Bowser(replace fire with water)
Hitmonchan/Little Mac
Lycanroc/Wolf
Young Link/Pawniard
Gardevoir/Zelda
Krookodile/K. Rool

 

[Idon]

The points about Dante's voice actor does make me curious. Any substance to that bit?

I find that unlikely, as I find all VA related "leaks" or "clues."
VAs are almost always kept hush-hush and will always spin off topics that might even remotely point to their inclusion in any sort of game.

I think the one exception for the DMC cast in particular, is when one of the VAs revealed he had a role for a new unnanounced game, and the entire table just laughed at how he messed up.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

That should work.

https://i.imgtc.com/b1KePnB.jpg

Luigi The President Luigi my bad! Lol

Maaaaaaaaaaaaan that DMC leak is starting to make me feel some kinda way.

He had insider info, but either that guy decided to **** with everyone and sprinkle in a "oh yeah and Dante is in Smash lul" or Dante is actually in Smash.

EDIT: Unfortunately, if it is true and Dante gets into Smash, it would mean that the future support planned for MVC:I really is scrapped and the game is dead for good.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Have we thought of any potential pokemon echo fighters to fill the new pokemon slot?

After the Gardevoir/Gothitelle rumor, I immediately dismissed it (of course), but thought it would be an interesting idea to have a Gen 7 Pokemon, and two echos from Gen 3 and 5 based on Lucario and Greninja to "fill in" the missing generations. Not something I would think Sakurai would do, mind you. Since echoes take much less time to develop, it'd be a nice way to handle that. However, I'm less familiar with modern Pokemon, and from talking to a friend who is, there doesn't seem to be any nice echos. I'd love to hear some ideas, though.

Also, personally, I'd be happy with no Gen 7 Pokemon, as I feel like veterans are essentially treated like newcomers, owing to Sakurai's statement to not expect "too many newcomers". Around 9 (not including echoes), instead of the traditional 16-ish, and I'm not a fan of having a rep for the sake of a rep. I'm curious how many would riot if they went with an Alolan Pokemon, like Alolan Meowth. You got your Gen 7 rep, but it was still more Gen 1 "pandering". But as I mainly like Gen 1-2, I'm fine with whatever Sakurai decides.

 

[Idon]

Where's this idea that Gamefreak or The Pokemon Company gets to pick the pokemon newcomer come from? It seemed pretty clear to me from that Greninja interview that Sakurai had a choice in the matter. He picked Greninja.

I could see Gamefreak or TPC showing him the concept art of specific pokemon they want to promote, but I really doubt he's forced to work with a single specific character of their choosing.

Of course he's not "forced," but it's obvious how much Pokemon as a brand has weight in Nintendo, and how they regularly approach Sakurai with designs that they're pushing to be "the next big thing." It's no coincidence that there is at least one new Pokemon introduced with every Smash.

Like, I seriously doubt TPC would've been okay with Sakurai picking Dunsparce as a playable fighter the same way I doubt Sakurai would've accepted Garbador as TPC's rising star. It's a collaboration for sure, but it's one that very likely results in at least a new popular pokemon being pushed.