Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dukeofdeath5]

Fallout 4

The brotherhood's coming to the battle boys

 

[NintenZ]

Fallout 4
Darius Burst CS
Just Cause 3
Dragon Quest Builders
Minecraft
Attack on Titan

Source: this interview where he shows off games he likes

Let’s see

When taking major Japanese franchises into account we can go by process of elimination:

Fallout, Minecraft, and Just Cause are Western IP so if we’re talking about major Japanese IPs then we can take those out.

Attack on Titan is based on the anime of the same name so we can take it out as well.

Darius is kinda niche so that can go as well.

So that leaves Dragon Quest, actually I’m surprised it hasn’t been represented it, it’s huge it Japan so I’m shocked it’s slipped the Smash radar.

(I’m sure Minecraft will be represented tho since it’s popularity has transcended the globe)

 

[Impa4Smash]

How do you all feel about these characters as the echoes for smash ultimate?
13 echoes in total, even if we get a tiny number of newcomers (Which looks to be the case) the echoes beef up the roster p hard

Throw in Impa as a Sheik echo and this is pretty much what I expect we’ll get.

Shadow and Ken seem like locks.

Isabelle is extremely likely. And Dixie will probably be a Chrom like hybrid echo, which as a Dixie supporter I’m completely fine with if it means she makes the cut

Black Knight would be awesome and between the Mii Costume and Chrom technically being a Roy echo his chances went up

The least likely is probably Medusa, as much as I want her to be included. Though I suppose she could take some of Palutena’s custom moves with darker cosmetic changes

 

[BlueMagician]

Now, I myself would love something Darius related in Smash, like a stage or trophy or music or a boss... even a good ol' "WARNING!" or something.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

64: 2 Pokemon
Melee: +2 Pokemon
Brawl: +4 Pokemon
WiiU/3DS: -1 Pokemon(lost Ivy and Squirt)
Ultimate(so far): +2 Pokemon

Good points. But i don't think retiring Pokemon should be a factor (thinking marketing wise. E.g. there's no need to promote Mewtwo anymore at the time Brawl comes out)

BUT for the sake of statistical precision, considering old ones coming back:
Brawl had +4, minus 2 (Pichu and Mewtwo)
Wii U +2 (Newtwo, Greninja) minus 2
Ultimate + 3 (Pichu, Squirtle, Ivysaur)

But without the old ones coming back or (excluding Pokemon trainer, condisering him as another class e.g. Pokemon with 3 special moves and stamina in Brawl):
Melee + 2
Brawl +1
Wii U + 1
Ultimate 0 ... ..

 

[DarkFalcon]

least likely is probably Medusa, as much as I want her to be included. Though I suppose she could take some of Palutena’s custom moves with darker cosmetic changes

For some reason that never crossed my mind. It'd be a way to not forget all her customs from Smash 4. Though they'd definitely need some pretty big visual overhauls to fit Medusa, which we know they'd be willing to do.

 

[Flynn__]

Being from Uprising, Medusa has actually a good chance of making it as an echo, and she even has the same body proportions (except for the head) as Palutena. And as said before, it would be a nice way to keep some of the custom movements Palutena had in 4.

Edit: wording.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Something I've been thinking about for a while.

We know Dixie Kong was going to be in Brawl as a tag team fighter with Diddy early on, and she even had data in the game. My question is when Sakurai was thinking of a semi clone to add last minute why did he chose to add Wolf instead of just finishing Dixie Kong?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If they made Dark Samus work, they could make Dixie work. They've shown they're willing to alter animations quite a lot, while also giving a different move not even shared by the fighter they're echoing.

idk I just think for Dixie especially having a moveset that isn't based around her hair would be pretty strange, like it's such a focal point of her character and it's her main thing that differentiates her from the other kongs in the DKC games. Having a dixie that doesn't attack with her hair, without a glide and without hair grabs wouldn't really feel like Dixie at all and just changing/altering animations can't really fix that. Plus Dixie is definitely worthy of being a unique character, she is a pretty popular character who's relevant, it's not like dark samus who's a moderately popular villain from a 10+ year old game that is canonically dead.

Idk I just think her being a diddy echo would feel like a little bit of a slap in the face and would only validate the people that call her "diddy with a ponytail", especially since she was planned to probably be unique in brawl, supporting a character who people immediately write off as a clone sucks lol

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

"oh c'mon. Maybe it's because you've been wanting him in for so long you've come to just not expect much of anything regarding him anymore, but as someone who doesn't care much for geno it's pretty obvious he's getting in. For God's sake we've already gotten Ridley and K. Rool. He's set. He's in. Sakurai even said hes wanted Geno in."


Is this how non-Geno fans see the character?

 

[MSmariosonic]

idk I just think for Dixie especially having a moveset that isn't based around her hair would be pretty strange, like it's such a focal point of her character and it's her main thing that differentiates her from the other kongs in the DKC games. Having a dixie that doesn't attack with her hair, without a glide and without hair grabs wouldn't really feel like Dixie at all and just changing/altering animations can't really fix that. Plus Dixie is definitely worthy of being a unique character, she is a pretty popular character who's relevant, it's not like dark samus who's a moderately popular villain from a 10+ year old game that is canonically dead.

Idk I just think her being a diddy echo would feel like a little bit of a slap in the face and would only validate the people that call her "diddy with a ponytail", supporting a character who people immediately write off as a clone sucks lol

I don't think you get it

Dark Samus has perhaps even more potential to be a unique fighter than Dixie and yet here we are with Dark Samus being an echo.

King K. Rool was a big enough priority for the development team. I highy doubt Dixie is one too.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

"oh c'mon. Maybe it's because you've been wanting him in for so long you've come to just not expect much of anything regarding him anymore, but as someone who doesn't care much for geno it's pretty obvious he's getting in. For God's sake we've already gotten Ridley and K. Rool. He's set. He's in. Sakurai even said hes wanted Geno in."


Is this how non-Geno fans see the character?

Have never played Super Mario RPG. Only know Geno due to Smash speculation from years ago. I pretty much hold this sentiment.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't think you get it

Dark Samus has perhaps even more potential to be a unique fighter than Dixie and yet here we are with Dark Samus being an echo.

King K. Rool was a big enough priority for the development team. I highy doubt Dixie is one too.

Dark samus is still canonically a clone of samus who uses phazon to attack which is exactly what she does in smash, she definitely has more potential to be unique but what she's doing still makes sense, and for a character who hasn't been around in 10 years and will never appear again, it doesn't really make sense to give priority in making her more unique sadly, especially since she's not all that popular

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

for a character who hasn't been around in 10 years and will never appear again

What about MP4?

 

[DarkFalcon]

I don't think you get it

Dark Samus has perhaps even more potential to be a unique fighter than Dixie and yet here we are with Dark Samus being an echo.

King K. Rool was a big enough priority for the development team. I highy doubt Dixie is one too.

Basically this. You know how annoying it was seeing people who never played Metroid Prime saying Dark Samus is just evil Samus? It bothered me a lot because Dark Samus fights nothing like Samus, and yet people thought nothing of her despite her being very different. The only reason I'm fine seeing Dark Samus as an echo despite everything she's shown in her games being very different than Samus is they altered a lot of her animations and movement to match the character.

Dixie would theoretically take less work. Chrom already showed they can take moves from other fighters and alter them. Maybe it wouldn't be representing her how people would like, but that's just preaching to the choir.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

"oh c'mon. Maybe it's because you've been wanting him in for so long you've come to just not expect much of anything regarding him anymore, but as someone who doesn't care much for geno it's pretty obvious he's getting in. For God's sake we've already gotten Ridley and K. Rool. He's set. He's in. Sakurai even said hes wanted Geno in."


Is this how non-Geno fans see the character?

I'm not sure I'd say he's 100% in, I think that's difficult to say about any 3rd party, let alone a Square Enix one, it might not even be up to Sakurai. However, he is by far the most likely he's ever been, and I don't feel like Square would actively be against it or anything, I'd say I'm like 75% sure he's in, and if not in the base game he'd still be one of the frontrunners for DLC.

What about MP4?

Tanabe has confirmed Dark Samus is done for, Prime 4 will have Sylux in an antagonist role instead.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Dark samus is still canonically a clone of samus who uses phazon to attack which is exactly what she does in smash, she definitely has more potential to be unique but what she's doing still makes sense, and for a character who hasn't been around in 10 years and will never appear again, it doesn't really make sense to give priority in making her more unique sadly, especially since she's not all that popular

Dixie is Diddy Kong with a ponytail isntead of a generic tail.

See what I did there?

Look, I really want to see Dixie playable too.

But expecting her to be more than an echo is just going to end up in disappointment.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What about MP4?

confirmed to not be in it, she's canonically dead

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Something I've been thinking about for a while.

We know Dixie Kong was going to be in Brawl as a tag team fighter with Diddy early on, and she even had data in the game. My question is when Sakurai was thinking of a semi clone to add last minute why did he chose to add Wolf instead of just finishing Dixie Kong?

Recency I'd guess, Star Fox had still been active up until the Gamecube and DS with Wolf in starring roles, while Dixie and the other sidekick Kongs hadn't been present in mainline titles since DK64 (edit: correction, Dixie wasn't even in DK64, so DKC3). Diddy was only able to ignore that fact because of his star factor aswell as featuring in the odd Mario spinoff.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So, with the news that the Dante trailer could focus on Dante saving a fire emblem character from Rathalos

What are the chances the Sakurai pic was actually a tease for Dante and not Isaac?

 

[Jedisupersonic]

So, with the news that the Dante trailer could focus on Dante saving a fire emblem character from Rathalos

What are the chances the Sakurai pic was actually a tease for Dante and not Isaac?

I didn't even consider that. Geez this is multilayered.

 

[StormC]

Dixie as an echo is still a no from me, to make her feel like herself you'd have to change so much that she wouldn't really be an echo anymore and it'd be a waste to make her a clone when she could be an extremely unique character on her own. They've planned to make her unique in the past so just do that again.

I mean, we don't actually know how Dixie would have worked in Brawl, we have no idea what her moveset would be like.

The unfortunate reality is she just might not be seen as high priority by Sakurai. I don't feel optimistic about her DLC odds if she isn't in the base game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something I've been thinking about for a while.

We know Dixie Kong was going to be in Brawl as a tag team fighter with Diddy early on, and she even had data in the game. My question is when Sakurai was thinking of a semi clone to add last minute why did he chose to add Wolf instead of just finishing Dixie Kong?

Keep in mind why she was scrapped; because the tag team idea didn't work out. Meaning his main plan for her was unfeasible. We have no clue what his exact plans for the moveset were. Notice how she wasn't playable in 4 either. It makes it sound like he cared a bit more about his tag team plan than simply just getting her on the roster alone. I think Ultimate will change those thoughts, and she might even have her planned moveset(clone, semi-clone, or otherwise).

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Keep in mind why she was scrapped; because the tag team idea didn't work out. Meaning his main plan for her was unfeasible. We have no clue what his exact plans for the moveset were. Notice how she wasn't playable in 4 either. It makes it sound like he cared a bit more about his tag team plan than simply just getting her on the roster alone. I think Ultimate will change those thoughts, and she might even have her planned moveset(clone, semi-clone, or otherwise).

You'd think if she was in the base game she'd have shown up in the K Rool trailer, but I'm not Sakurai so maybe she's planned to be revealed later.

After all Dark Samus didn't show up with Ridley, and the only two trailers i'm going off of are Robin's (which introduced Lucina as Marth's echo) and Simon's (which introduced Richter as well.)

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Something I've been thinking about for a while.

We know Dixie Kong was going to be in Brawl as a tag team fighter with Diddy early on, and she even had data in the game. My question is when Sakurai was thinking of a semi clone to add last minute why did he chose to add Wolf instead of just finishing Dixie Kong?

Wolf took moves from other fighters (ZSS for back air, sonic for up smash and neutral air and some others I'm forgetting) if the plan was to make dixie unique she'd require more work

Dixie is Diddy Kong with a ponytail isntead of a generic tail.

See what I did there?

Look, I really want to see Dixie playable too.

But expecting her to be more than an echo is just going to end up in disappointment.

But that ponytail is emphasised as being her main weapon, slapping one move on to Diddy Kong would be really disappointing imo, it could very well happen but I hope not

 

[amageish]

Awwww, I missed all the MegaTen discussion. Welp, time to reply to all of it in a wall of text.

....or we could have both represented with the mascot of both series', Jack Frost. Seriously, guys! (btw, hey Nintenzilla!!! Awesome to see you around still!)

While anything MegaTen in Smash would be super hype, I dunno how I'd feel about Jack Frost as a playable character. Maybe if he brought along his friends to match the Virtual Boy "classic" Jack Bros, then that'd be cool; however, Jack by himself cannot fully represent either SMT or Persona - he can only use ice attacks, when both series have a focus on exploiting a variety elemental weaknesses. He is more iconic and I'd expect him to be the neutral special of a Demon-Summoner/Wild-Card-User; however, I have cold feet about the idea of him going out there all on his own.

I actually do think an SMT protagonist is the dark horse character that no one really expects when he should at least be noticed (at least more than someone like Takamaru or Ayumi Tachibana which never even got over to the Americas)

he fact that TMS#FE was being released roughly when the roster was being decided on makes me bet they would have considered a SMT character, even if they didn't follow through.

I’ve actually seen people request Rise for reasons such as “Best girl” and “Canon wiafu”.

While I agree Rise is best girl, personally if they were to go with a Persona 4 character that isn’t the protagonist I feel like it would be Naoto.

If we're getting a Persona waifu character, then my bets would be on a Velvet Room attendant, given how they're designed to be overpowered. Aigis is also an option, though I imagine that there is a different character with guns for hands Sakurai would be adding before her.

In terms of a Persona versus a SMT character, here's my maximum pipedream: Mainline SMT gets a demon summoner as a playable character, using the most iconic demons in their moveset. The franchise, however, gets (admittedly unprecedented) treatment with two stages right off the bat - the ruins of Tokyo for SMT and a large stage based on the four main dungeons of Persona Q. When using the SMT character on the Q stage, you can perform a special taunt to have SEES/the Investigation Team/the Phantom Thieves discuss the SMT character's opponent (a la the Codex/Guidance) as if they're the ones playing the game (given how P5 seems to make it canon that both Smash Brothers and ATLUS exist inside of the universe of Persona).

I know this is a very weird way of doing it, and I admit there is a 0.00000001% chance of it happening, but I'd like it in how it represents both franchises in ways reflective of their best traits - SMT gets to fight, as its battle system is amazing, while Persona gets to talk, as the visual novel elements of those games are amazing. So, that's my pipe-dream.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

You'd think if she was in the base game she'd have shown up in the K Rool trailer, but I'm not Sakurai so maybe she's planned to be revealed later.

After all Dark Samus didn't show up with Ridley, and the only two trailers i'm going off of are Robin's (which introduced Lucina as Marth's echo) and Simon's (which introduced Richter as well.)

Worth noting that there isn't really a connection between Dark Samus and Ridley, sticking them in a trailer together would probably feel pretty forced unlike Robin and Lucina was and K Rool and Dixie would be. If Dixie is in and especially if she's an echo she probably would've been in that trailer, I don't really know what to think tbh

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Worth noting that there isn't really a connection between Dark Samus and Ridley, sticking them in a trailer together would probably feel pretty forced unlike Robin and Lucina was and K Rool and Dixie would be. If Dixie is in and especially if she's an echo she probably would've been in that trailer, I don't really know what to think tbh

If Dixie is in at this point, echo or semi clone, she'll just be revealed like the other echoes have been so far I'm sure. K. Rool's trailer was focused on his revival and role as DKC's undisputed main villain, I'm not sure how they could have fit Dixie in there without her being completely overshadowed or just halting the momentum of the trailer. It's better for her to have her own moment, even if it's just in the form of a simple gameplay trailer like the ones we saw for Chrom and Dark Samus.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Worth noting that there isn't really a connection between Dark Samus and Ridley, sticking them in a trailer together would probably feel pretty forced unlike Robin and Lucina was and K Rool and Dixie would be. If Dixie is in and especially if she's an echo she probably would've been in that trailer, I don't really know what to think tbh

True, was merely pointing it out. My thought process can be a tad strange admittedly.

 

[StormC]

It would be weird if after so many years of speculation on K. Rool vs. Dixie that Dixie is just completely MIA.

Even as a K. Rool supporter, I always thought he and Dixie would get in together.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

The one brightside is that if Dixie somehow doesn't make it to the base game, she could be added as DLC and have more time developing her to not be an echo. If she has the demand.

I wonder how they are going to determine DLC

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You'd think if she was in the base game she'd have shown up in the K Rool trailer, but I'm not Sakurai so maybe she's planned to be revealed later.

After all Dark Samus didn't show up with Ridley, and the only two trailers i'm going off of are Robin's (which introduced Lucina as Marth's echo) and Simon's (which introduced Richter as well.)

Of course, Dark Samus wouldn't have really fit within the trailer anyway. She'd have nothing to do, as it was focused on Ridley in general.

It also makes me wonder if some of these Echoes were still made later on, namely Chrom and Dark Samus. Richter feels like he was made around the same as Simon. Daisy could go either way.

As for Dixie, Echo or not, they could be saving her for a later showing. Remember, we barely saw any of Diddy's stuff, including the costumes. We however saw that the Dark Samus and Chrom outfits were cut due to the demo gameplay. Diddy wasn't that lucky. So the timing could simply be just because of who was available so far, to give us an easy framework of timing of when to expect stuff. I only say this because Sakurai already figured we figured out that the Dark Samus and Chrom costumes missing were a good sign they were in. So if he's basing Echo reveals somewhat off of "when the fans can guess it", it'd make speculation more fun, which fits a bit, since he likes to plan things out in general.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

The one brightside is that if Dixie somehow doesn't make it to the base game, she could be added as DLC and have more time developing her to not be an echo. If she has the demand.

I wonder how they are going to determine DLC

With no veterans to be dlc I assume it's gonna be mostly 3rd parties and promoting new games, sylux, new pokemon character, new fire emblem character, new xenoblade character. I truly have no idea if they'd go for dixie

Interesting that you mention demand, Dixie is one of those characters who's in a weird limbo of popularity, like she's not unpopular by any means but she's not extremely popular, doesn't help that she was essentially overshadowed by K Rool in that regard. I wonder where she would've placed on the ballot.

 

[StormC]

Dixie seems more expected than demanded. She was almost always brought up as a counterpoint to K. Rool, rarely for her own merits.

I think people (including myself) truly expected this to be a repeat of Smash 4, with a focus on recent games instead of fan favorites. Sakurai does it again.

 

[PSIGuy]

So, with the news that the Dante trailer could focus on Dante saving a fire emblem character from Rathalos

What are the chances the Sakurai pic was actually a tease for Dante and not Isaac?

I have no interest in DMC or Golden Sun but I'd much rather see a first/second party franchise make a triumphant return thanks to fan demand than see another third party who only gets in to shill an upcoming game. Pizza Bayonetta gets a hard pass from me.

Arisen & Pawn would be a much better Itsuno-directed rep. #TheWindIsPushingMe

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think Dixie is all that's needed for the perfect DKC representation in Smash now that K Rool is in

 

[MSmariosonic]

Eh

To me dixie is one of the most likely echoes

Especially now that we know of Chrom's up special

 

[SirCamp]

"oh c'mon. Maybe it's because you've been wanting him in for so long you've come to just not expect much of anything regarding him anymore, but as someone who doesn't care much for geno it's pretty obvious he's getting in. For God's sake we've already gotten Ridley and K. Rool. He's set. He's in. Sakurai even said hes wanted Geno in."


Is this how non-Geno fans see the character?

I don't. I actually think the echo chamber of online speculation makes people think he's more likely than he is. I feel the same about Skull Kid actually. The idea that he's a lock is not an uncommon sentiment though. I think he has decent chances, I just don't think he's a lock at this point like some people say.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I know a lot of people think Dixie would be properly represented with a ponytail propel and the gumball popgun, but I feel like Dixie should also at least have her hair twirl as her dash attack, and have her grab opponents with her hair (basically all of the abilities she showcased in DKC 2, 3 and TF.) If they do that I won't be too upset.

 

[Flynn__]

Dixie could work as an echo and be a fair representation of the character, but the line that separates an echo and a character like Dr. Mario would disappear if this happens as she would be more different to Diddy than Dr. Mario is to Mario. Nevertheless I don't see them giving her her own spot in the roster at this point, so her only chance would be being an echo. I dunno, but I hope she makes it in in one way or another.