Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dukeofdeath5]

Because some people say Steve is hard to make moveset for
some Ideas for Steve Moveset:

• Mining, Crafting, Building (specials)
• Enderpearl Teleport and/or Elytra (Up B)
• Minecart (S-pecial or Dash attack)
• Bucket of Lava (Side/Down Smash)
• Flint & Steel (Down Tilt)
• Splash Potion

not to mention other potential things for moves like

• Weapons: Sword, Axe, Bow, Trident
• Tools: Pickaxe, Shears, Fishing Rod
• Enchantment

Something I thought of was his Down B could be an Upgrade Mechanic.

Start with your fists. Down B shows Steve at a crafting table for a few seconds, now he has a Stone Sword. More damage, more range, but it will break eventually. If you Down B while you still have the Stone Sword it'll become a Steel Sword. Down B again, now it's Diamond.

 

[Malkior7]

People's opinions on Dark Samus in general.

Spoiler

But no seriously, why the **** did you guys go through the effort of giving her brand new animations and effects for literally everything and then not changing the things that are the most important for Dark Samus: the goddamn moves.

I would imagine it was so they could prioritize the other unique newcomers without having to cut her as a playable character

 

[WolfCypher]

People's opinions on Dark Samus in general.

Spoiler

But no seriously, why the **** did you guys go through the effort of giving her brand new animations and effects for literally everything and then not changing the things that are the most important for Dark Samus: the goddamn moves.

I'll raise the ante.

Spoiler

Why the **** did you guys not just carry over and reanimate the moves it used as an Assist Trophy in the previous game, when they carried over a lot of assets from the previous game?

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, Echo characters are a case of "It was either this, or nothing". I personally will happily take the something over the nothing, but I can understand people who are disappointed with Dark Samus. I pretty much feel the same way about Lucina and Chrom, as I honestly wish they were anything but Marth clones, but again, I will definitely take that over nothing.

Also, as far as Steve goes, I'd be down with it. Minecraft is a fun iconic game with cool stuff to pull from, so why not?

EDIT: Also, I don't think reworking Dark Samus' AT trophy moves would be quite as easy as people think. People reaaaally underestimate how hard it is do even simple-in-concept things in game design...It's not really a case of porting over animations and calling it done. ATs are balanced as an item, not a fighter, so everything about that works fundamentally differently. I don't think it be a case of pushing a button and then it works, either...making Dark Samus different in that way would practically make her a new character, and since there are already going to be so few of those this time around, probably meant she wasn't a super high priority. So yeah, I really do think it was the Echo or nothing.

 

[Idon]

Moves: more work
Animations: less work

But moves are just animations with hitboxes tied to them. Like, look at Sonic who has 50% of his moveset in Brawl consisting of turning into a ball or Wolf being a frankenstein of 6 different characters.
Surely, changing the animation of an attacking move and making new hitboxes for them would be easier than changing every single animation she has to keep her Dark Samus feeling, but normal Samus in practice.

I'll raise the ante.

Spoiler

Why the **** did you guys not just carry over and reanimate the moves it used as an Assist Trophy in the previous game, when they carried over a lot of assets from the previous game?

Exactly this as well. Her phazon themed moves are actually canon, look extremely good, and are already in the game. All it would take would be reworking those animations and effects for Ultimates.

 

[Luigi The President]

I remember when Funky Kong was seen as one of the most likely Echoes. Now I barely see any talk about the big guy! Personally, still hoping he's in. I'd main him, no joke.
Right now, my most wanted is Black Knight, but I also just don't want to set my hopes up too high for that funky beast.

 

[Nazyrus]

Uhhh loz18 is speaking up again and he is dropping some very shady hints now…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031714028010328069 skull kid or something about young link (?)…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031716239205453825 it's vague as hell but earlier today he asked us "what have you heard?" and people started sharing him what we've read in fake leaks and such, or possible stuff like ken, shadow, etc. Then he tells us those two things…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031720630855655426 (i don't think this has to do with smash tho)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Funky is not needed to complete the DK cast

Dixie is

 

[Lyndis_]

I think the big thing people are missing about Dark Samus and Chrom, is that, if these characters were not echoes they would not be in the game. Period.

I get that it can be frustrating have a character not be as unique as they could be (I'm a big fan of Ganondorf), but Chrom and especially Dark Samus are losing relevance in their series as time goes on and would likely never get another chance to be playable as anything but an echo, if at all.

Dark Samus likely will not be in another Metroid game, and Chrom, like most FE main characters, isn't going to appear in future titles outside of spin-offs like Heroes or Warriors (which we don't know if any more are even being developed currently.)

Moves: more work
Animations: less work

Additionally;
Idle/Dodge animations: Less animations
New moves: Even more animations, on top of having to adjust balance and develop how these new moves play.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I was really hoping that Ultimate would make Dark Pit significantly different from Pit (like Luigi compared to Mario) and not just a glorified alt costume, but alas, I'm left disappointed again.

Been talked to death about many times...what’s the point in making him fight different from Pit when he is literally an edgy Pit (fighting style included)? He’s the most accurate clone in Smash, and he should stay that way

Ha, even they admit there are basically no differences.

Something that has been admitted by Sakurai and well known by everyone since he officially joined in 2014 (so leaks excluded)

 

[Luigi The President]

Funky is not needed to complete the DK cast

Dixie is

Daisy isn't needed to "complete" the Mario cast. Funky Kong's just a fun easy addition, and has been a decently important DK character for a long time, alongside being pretty well-loved. Why not both?

 

[PSIGuy]

I actually liked KI Uprising but Dark Pit and Palutena were such lame additions that I didn't care about either of them. 1 v 1 your edgy rival is fun in a single player game but it's a lame excuse to change two attributes and call it a newcomer, and Palutena's gimmick combined with her default moveset made me never want to touch her. If Dark Pit has enough differences to be their own character then I fully expect Hilda to get in as Zelda but frownier and with different victory music.

Even Palutena's Guidance was terrible compared to what it was based on. In a KI:U level the commentary and music accompany whatever's going on so each level feels really cohesive, and the dialogue is always based on the unique level hazards. In Smash it's just wacky characters having wacky conversations about wacky characters. Codecs worked because gathering intel on fighters naturally creates a contrast that's funny without being overtly silly.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Uhhh loz18 is speaking up again and he is dropping some very shady hints now…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031714028010328069 skull kid or something about young link (?)…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031716239205453825 it's vague as hell but earlier today he asked us "what have you heard?" and people started sharing him what we've read in fake leaks and such, or possible stuff like ken, shadow, etc. Then he tells us those two things…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031720630855655426 (i don't think this has to do with smash tho)

Maybe he's teasing Shantae with the dancing? LOL

 

[DarkFalcon]

After hearing what people with actual game dev experience have said, Dark Samus would have taken far more work to be unique. Yea a lot of her animations are different, but the balancing aspect is trimmed down significantly by having her based off Samus. Plus many other factors I'm probably ignorant of.

 

[Dixie Kong]

Uhhh loz18 is speaking up again and he is dropping some very shady hints now…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031714028010328069 skull kid or something about young link (?)…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031716239205453825 it's vague as hell but earlier today he asked us "what have you heard?" and people started sharing him what we've read in fake leaks and such, or possible stuff like ken, shadow, etc. Then he tells us those two things…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031720630855655426 (i don't think this has to do with smash tho)

Perhaps the last is referencing Banjo?

 

[Nazyrus]

Maybe he's teasing Shantae with the dancing? LOL

That would be amazingly well trolled haha, i would give him that if that's what it is LOL

 

[Luigi The President]

Uhhh loz18 is speaking up again and he is dropping some very shady hints now…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031714028010328069 skull kid or something about young link (?)…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031716239205453825 it's vague as hell but earlier today he asked us "what have you heard?" and people started sharing him what we've read in fake leaks and such, or possible stuff like ken, shadow, etc. Then he tells us those two things…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031720630855655426 (i don't think this has to do with smash tho)

I thought we were done trusting this guy?

 

[Idon]

I actually liked KI Uprising but Dark Pit and Palutena were such lame additions that I didn't care about either of them. 1 v 1 your edgy rival is fun in a single player game but it's a lame excuse to change two attributes and call it a newcomer, and Palutena's gimmick combined with her default moveset made me never want to touch her. If Dark Pit has enough differences to be their own character then I fully expect Hilda to get in as Zelda but frownier and with different victory music.

Even Palutena's Guidance was terrible compared to what it was based on. In a KI:U level the commentary and music accompany whatever's going on so each level feels really cohesive, and the dialogue is always based on the unique level hazards. In Smash it's just wacky characters having wacky conversations about wacky characters. Codecs worked because gathering intel on fighters naturally creates a contrast that's funny without being overtly silly.

Campbell: "Snake, watch out for Wario's farts!"
Snake: internally questions the meaning of his existence.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Daisy isn't needed to "complete" the Mario cast. Funky Kong's just a fun easy addition, and has been a decently important DK character for a long time, alongside being pretty well-loved. Why not both?

I don't think we're going to get 3 DK newcomers in the same game

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

But moves are just animations with hitboxes tied to them. Like, look at Sonic who has 50% of his moveset in Brawl consisting of turning into a ball or Wolf being a frankenstein of 6 different characters.
Surely, changing the animation of an attacking move and making new hitboxes for them would be easier than changing every single animation she has to keep her Dark Samus feeling, but normal Samus in practice.

Exactly this as well. Her phazon themed moves are actually canon, look extremely good, and are already in the game. All it would take would be reworking those animations and effects for Ultimates.

I don't think designing a new move set with new hitboxes, damage balancing, and so on is as simple as your giving it credit for. Specially since Sakurai has been shown to MUCH rather copy paste a moveset on a clone character with unique animations than making a new character in full. From Falco to Ganon to the Echos.

 

[Noipoi]

Funky is not needed to complete the DK cast

Dixie Lanky is

Fixed that for you.

 

[ZephyrZ]

But moves are just animations with hitboxes tied to them. Like, look at Sonic who has 50% of his moveset in Brawl consisting of turning into a ball or Wolf being a frankenstein of 6 different characters.
Surely, changing the animation of an attacking move and making new hitboxes for them would be easier than changing every single animation she has to keep her Dark Samus feeling, but normal Samus in practice.

As I mentioned before; balance. I believe Sakurai said in a Smash 4 interview that part of the reason Dark Pit and Lucina were so easy to implement was because they were easy to balance. Chrom is the only echo so far to have different moves from his counterpart and while one is extremely basic (f-tilt) the other is partially borrowed(aether). Something tells me incorporaring phazon powers would be far more ambitious then the changes they made to Chrom.

 

[Luigi The President]

I don't think we're going to get 3 DK newcomers in the same game

Except Sakurai clearly doesn't hold Echoes to the same standards as newcomers. I didn't expect 2 Kid Icarus newcomers in 4, so I think there's always a chance. Just keep your mind open!

 

[Zinith]

Campbell: "Snake, watch out for Wario's farts!"
Snake: internally questions the meaning of his existence.

That's nothing new for Snake...

 

[BlondeLombax]

Also, as far as Steve goes, I'd be down with it. Minecraft is a fun iconic game with cool stuff to pull from, so why not?

I feel like there's still a lot of bad blood from Minecraft's intensive popularity in the early-mid '10s, from stars like the Yogscast and Sky to notable squeakers like SuperMinecraftKid (I know he was a troll, but he's still notable). That's my hypothesis as to why people don't necessarily want him in Smash, even if it might be a miniscule reason.
Since we got everybody that matters, anyway, I'd be fine if we got a MC rep. I only doof around with mods in creative mode, though, so I can't make up a moveset myself (it's definitely there, though), and so long as they keep the stiff, blocky movements akin to Mr. Game & Watch, I'd be all for it.

 

[Rhus]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

 

[Noipoi]

Uhhh loz18 is speaking up again and he is dropping some very shady hints now…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031714028010328069 skull kid or something about young link (?)…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031716239205453825 it's vague as hell but earlier today he asked us "what have you heard?" and people started sharing him what we've read in fake leaks and such, or possible stuff like ken, shadow, etc. Then he tells us those two things…

https://twitter.com/loz183/status/1031720630855655426 (i don't think this has to do with smash tho)

Didn't we all agree that loz18 was a big poopy pants McGee and we're not gonna trust him?

 

[Roberk]

But moves are just animations with hitboxes tied to them. Like, look at Sonic who has 50% of his moveset in Brawl consisting of turning into a ball or Wolf being a frankenstein of 6 different characters.
Surely, changing the animation of an attacking move and making new hitboxes for them would be easier than changing every single animation she has to keep her Dark Samus feeling, but normal Samus in practice.

Balancing basically. Even just changing the knockback and damage of moves will require an immense amount of balancing, changing entire moves' animations would be a ton of work. Especially when it's someone like Dark Samus who would use very unique assets and animations.

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Captain Charlie

Beefy boy

 

[Noipoi]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

Does Dark Pit have a PHD?
I didn't think so.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

2 reasons. People are nostalgic towards Dr. Mario because of Melee, and he plays fairly differently from Mario.

I have no issues with Dark Pit. His differences are extremely slight and you could argue he should be an alt instead, but there's no harm in him being one of the easiest clones in the game. It makes people who like him happier than having him be a simple alt.

 

[PSIGuy]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.
And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

All the character development in the world means nothing in a fist fight, but spinning around versus shooting a water gun does.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "they're only functions", but personality without function isn't that interesting to play.

 

[Sigran101]

I've noticed that a lot of people on this site don't want to entertain the fact that she could likely be unique. It's like they all see her as likely but aren't really fond of her so they relegate her to echo just to get her out of the way.
Animal Crossing is such a successful and popular franchise that has tons to offer yet only has one character, it'll be a shame to see Isabelle's potential go to waste by being an echo when she can do so much more

That's not the reason at least for me. It's not about the honor of being unique or not. It's that Isabel has no moves in source material to pull from. If you have to make up moves for her to be unique and she fits fine as an echoe then you might as well make her an echoe so that more characters who can't work as an echoe can be in as well. One of my most wanted is Black Knight and I want him as an echoe rather than a unique newcomer for that same reason.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

Think you're getting somethin mixed up. People are fine with getting Dr. Mario back as he's a legacy character with nostalgia, but had he been a newcomer to Sm4sh mercy me the **** storm. Now, people certainly didn't want more Dr. Marios. As in more blatant clones taking up spots.

Let us make no mistake. In their very essence Echos started out as Alts. In a way they still are, Sakurai is just putting more effort into it.

 

[Wyoming]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

He has his own series tho...

 

[lordvaati]

This reminds me of Simon's drastic design changes . . .

Why did he get them in the first place? Can any Castlevania experts here explain that?

When IGA was calling the shots he did an overhaul of a majority of the cast. Dracula, Alucard and Maria's new looks were bloody perfect, Richter's was alright and Simon was either really loved or really hated with the redhead design.

Judgement was a spinoff where they hired the artist of the Death Note/Hikaru no Go team to do all the art and..well yah know.
Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin were an attempt to go back to the anime esque aesthetic of Rondo, but fans missed IGA's artstyle so they brought it back with Order of Ecclesia.

When IGA left Konami rebooted the whole shebang with the Lords of Shadow games assisted by Kojima, which led to new looks there too.

And now we are here with Smash, with Simon rocking his NES cover/PC Chronicles look, Richter looking like he did in Rondo and Drac and Alucard sporting the updated designs from the Netflix series.

 

[RandomAce]

Because some people say Steve is hard to make moveset for
some Ideas for Steve Moveset:

• Mining, Crafting, Building (specials)
• Enderpearl Teleport and/or Elytra (Up B)
• Minecart (S-pecial or Dash attack)
• Bucket of Lava (Side/Down Smash)
• Flint & Steel (Down Tilt)
• Splash Potion

not to mention other potential things for moves like

• Weapons: Sword, Axe, Bow, Trident
• Tools: Pickaxe, Shears, Fishing Rod
• Enchantment

Steve is the character to be the LEAST worried about moveset potential.

You can literally make Alex and Steve two seperate unique characters and it won’t cover half of the things available from Mincecraft.

 

[Roberk]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

It's only bad if it's something they don't like.

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

I like Doctor Mario because Mario is my favorite video game franchise next to Zelda, Kirby, and Splatoon and I'll pretty much accept anything from those games. Heck, I'd probably get hyped over a Goomba, lol.

KI: Uprising was an...okay game, for me. Parts I liked, parts I didn't kinda thing. Dark Pit was unfortunately one of those things, so I've never cared for him in Smash. I'm happy he's still here for the people who like him, though!

 

[Idon]

Why do people hate Dark Pit when he is actually relevant to Icarus' story, has a history, has character growth etc.

And here we are with Mario in a lab coat that contributes 0 to his series and ya'll are fine with that.

Every person is different and there are a whole host of reasons to like or dislike a character.
Buuuuut there are some factors that might make a person like or dislike a character
Dr.:Moveset differences, big statistical differences, Required some development time. Different playstyle. Strictly worse. Almost the same personality (not shown during combat), has 17 years worth of nostalgia.
DP:Almost no moveset differences, little significant statistical differences, Required little development time. Same playstyle. Strictly similar. Very different personality (not shown during combat), has existed for not very long.

Though in my personal opinion, Dr. Mario, Falco, Wolf, Pichu (or Raichu), Roy, and Lucas would've almost certainly been echoes (or in the doc's case, a straight costume) had they been introduced today, and that kinda stings as a really big fan of Dark Samus.