Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ShinyRegice]

Then why K. Rool was included in Smash Bros Ultimate?

I'm surprised that K. Rool is now playable in Smash and yet there are people who apparently still believe he's a Rare property (while he's in fact owned by Nintendo like all other Rare-created Donkey Kong elements).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Frogger. better assist. Like Bomberman. Goemon is much more iconic than Frogger. Especially in Japan.

Yes. It's almost like asking for the ship from Galaga to be playable as a Namco character (even if Frogger did get some proper platformer roles after the first game).

 

[Zeox]

What do you guys think this could mean? new Stage Hazard in Onett?

https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1029282244618141697

https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/1029285894505676800

 

[Pyra]

Well the head of Xbox wants him in so I think it'll work out.

@PedroDarkinson I think it would be cool if Banjo was in the next SSB DLC. We've worked with Nintendo on Rare IP before, no issues.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) April 3, 2015

Yep.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) March 20, 2018

This almost feels like the opposite situation to Geno.
While Sakurai pretty much wants Geno but we're not even sure if Square would let that happen at all, Microsoft is more than willing to do business about Banjo but I'm not entirely sure Sakurai would care to do that.

In both scenarios, one side is willing to do business while the other could be interpreted ambiguously.

This doesn't mean anything in either way for either character, just something I noticed.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I have a small little theory I concocted this morning:

As you all know, we just had our first new, unique third party in the form of Simon Belmont. I personally believe that Simon will not be only unique third party present in Ultimate's roster, based on this quote about Sakurai here:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

"—Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash?

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left."

What this strongly suggests to me is that there will be, at least, 1 or 2 more third party newcomers from Japanese franchises that are globally popular after Castlevania, going by what Sakurai said about not having "that many left." Which franchises they could is a bit of a mystery, but if I were to guess them, I believe it would be a character from Tekken and Resident Evil, followed by Kingdom Hearts and Professor Layton if there are more third parties he has planned for Ultimate's roster.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Well the head of Xbox wants him in so I think it'll work out.

@PedroDarkinson I think it would be cool if Banjo was in the next SSB DLC. We've worked with Nintendo on Rare IP before, no issues.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) April 3, 2015

Yep.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) March 20, 2018

But there's the whole, would he answer that tweet if Banjo was in situation.

Honestly though I can see Banjo getting in as DLC this time at least.

I have a small little theory I concocted this morning:

As you all know, we just had our first new, unique third party in the form of Simon Belmont. I personally believe that Simon will not be only unique third party present in Ultimate's roster, based on this quote about Sakurai here:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

"—Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash?

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left."

What this strongly suggests to me is that there will be, at least, 1 or 2 more third party newcomers from Japanese franchises that are globally popular after Castlevania, going by what Sakurai said about not having "that many left." Which franchises they could is a bit of a mystery, but if I were to guess them, I believe it would be a character from Tekken and Resident Evil, followed by Kingdom Hearts and Professor Layton if there are more third parties he has planned for Ultimate's roster.

Is this really a new theory of yours, I definitely feel like I've seen you post it before lol. I defintely agree that we will see at least one more 3rd party series represented, and it would likely be Japanese. Rayman is the only special case scenario. Also after the Shovel Knight reveal, I wouldn't expect any Indy reps. There's still too many major series still not represented.

 

[forwardaerial]

Banjo, James Bond and Wario were almost in 64.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Then why K. Rool was included in Smash Bros Ultimate?

Unless this is a joke, Nintendo owns the rights to all the Donkey Kong characters that Rare Ltd. created before the company was bought by Microsoft.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm still holding out hope for three new Zelda characters. Skull kid as an original with Impa and Hilda as echoes. Maybe even Demise as an echo if lucky.

Please let that be Demise over Hilda. Having him in any shape or form would hopefully mean a new appearance. I personally would like a prequel to Skyward Sword in ancient Hyrule before the ancient Hyrule that wasn't even called Hyrule in Skyward Sword with an immensive big map like Breath of the Wild. Is a great way to reshape yet reuse a lot of the mechanics and whatnot of Breath of the Wild without feeling stale.

I would like a new Zelda game to be announced in general. It's been way too quiet for my tastes honestly.

Also, I do think Impa and Skull Kid are the best possible choices for obvious reasons. Hopefully they will draw from Hyrule Warriors, cause their movesets there are truly amazing and deserve to be represented in Smash.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Banjo, James Bond and Wario were almost in 64.

No they weren't. Banjo and 007 were considered for Melee, but scrapped due to licensing issues, while Wario wasn't added due to time constraints. SourceGaming wrote a very interesting article on the matter of unrealized characters:
https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/

 

[forwardaerial]

Banjo is happening eventually, probably as DLC.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I have a small little theory I concocted this morning:

As you all know, we just had our first new, unique third party in the form of Simon Belmont. I personally believe that Simon will not be only unique third party present in Ultimate's roster, based on this quote about Sakurai here:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

"—Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash?

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left."

What this strongly suggests to me is that there will be, at least, 1 or 2 more third party newcomers from Japanese franchises that are globally popular after Castlevania, going by what Sakurai said about not having "that many left." Which franchises they could is a bit of a mystery, but if I were to guess them, I believe it would be a character from Tekken and Resident Evil, followed by Kingdom Hearts and Professor Layton if there are more third parties he has planned for Ultimate's roster.

A resident evil character could be cool, maybe it could be a simon and richter situation again with like Leon and Chris or vice versa

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Banjo, James Bond and Wario were almost in 64.

Unless you have a source, Banjo was not considered for 64. In fact none of these were, it was melee you are thinking about, and James Bond was considered, far from almost in.

Read sourcegamimg stuff on it, they've covered it well and make sure to seperate fact from fiction.

Edit: Was completely beat to this lol, sorry for the parroting.

A resident evil character could be cool, maybe it could be a simon and richter situation again with like Leon and Chris or vice versa

Chris is a funny way of spelling Jill Valentine. (#theoneandonlyresidentevilrep)

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Unless this is a joke, Nintendo owns the rights to all the Donkey Kong characters that Rare Ltd. created before the company was bought by Microsoft.

The Kremlings have been underutilized by Nintendo for so long that people actually thought they belonged to Rare.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Frogger. better assist. Like Bomberman. Goemon is much more iconic than Frogger. Especially in Japan.

I dont think that is true. Frogger is recognizable worldwide, far outside of the video game audience. It was also an insanely huge game in Japan, as far back as 1981 when it wasnt even available in America right away. Japan is who launched Frogger.

Dont fall victim to the echo chamber. Youre not gonna see Goemon in a movie with Pacman and Galaga. We've seen Frogger do that.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Konami wasn't the only who suffered with Pachinko.

Check the Rockman Ability, the newest Capcom's pachinko.

To be fair, Capcom's downfall was a mixture of going all in on the mobile game market before it was ready and focusing what games they had left running on the mass market.

This time Capcom hasn't abandoned console Mega Man games as MM11 is coming.
Konami, abandoned console gaming and left their best talent out to the wolves.

I wonder if Smash is part of their scrambling back lost goodwill.

 

[Kuon]

What need to make everyone's life complete in the Smash Bros Ultimate?
Newcomer characters from older games or just an Adventure mode?

Newcomers from older games. People are focused more on newcomers than on game modes

 

[forwardaerial]

No they weren't. Banjo and 007 were considered for Melee, but scrapped due to licensing issues, while Wario wasn't added due to time constraints. SourceGaming wrote a very interestibg article on the matter of unrealized characters:
https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/

Right, sorry I got confused.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There are so many leaks now that it’s hard to keep track and focus on which one has the most credibility. So much conflicting info and so much variety that it’s really hard to pinpoint who is actually in the game or not. The only easy one was Simon in my opinion. One leaker says Gardevoir/Gothitelle, another says Incineroar, and another says no new Pokémon Rep at all.

I’m sort of sick of it all. I’d rather just ride the “Ultimate” wave rather than take stock (lol) in leaks.

Been saying this since the start. Not even one "leak" seems feasible to me. I'll trust them as soon as the game comes closer to release.

 

[Nonno Umby]

The Kremlings have been underutilized by Nintendo for so long that people actually thought they belonged to Rare.

To be fair Nintendo did used them for a while in their little DK games like Barrel Blast. The real culprits were Retro Studios, who when they decided to bring back the Country series, they opted for original (and quite forgettable, to be honest) villains.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Would you be willing to settle for championing Poochy? Kamek may be dead in the water, seeing as he still can't get to be a boss in his own series.



Only in America. In Japan, he was bigger than both. Then everyone mostly gave up their chances on him after Snake got in Smash Bros, never mind the whole pachinko death sentence.

Did someone else besides me mention Poochy?

Also I find it slightly curious that the Woolly World stage is missing from the stage list. It very possible it was cut, but I don't see why. Orbital gate was suppose to be a giant time drain on development, Miiverse won't work due to Miiverse being discontinued, and jungle Hi-jinx might not work due to stage switching. What was so wrong with Woolly World?

its also possible that they just haven't shown off the stage yet, but why? Maybe to show off with a certain Woolly newcomer? That's a stretch but I'd like to dream.

 

[Untouch]

Chris and Leon would be interesting because they both represent their series pretty equally, at least for nintendo of course.

 

[Deleted member]

What was so wrong with Woolly World?

The stage itself was awful to play on. Didn't stop Hanenbow or 75m though

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm still holding out hope for three new Zelda characters. Skull kid as an original with Impa and Hilda as echoes. Maybe even Demise as an echo if lucky.

Skull Kid would be awesome, but I'm a bit hesitant to celebrate the Zelda series being bloated with more clones than it already has.

While Impa is deserving, she's also very forgettable in each of her games. She's work well as a Sheik echo (now that transformations are out, Impa probably should have been the original), but I don't see them giving her enough thought to give her one of her Hyrule Warriors kits (the naginata was way more fitting)

Demise and Hilda are both one-offs whose popularity was eclipsed by tons of other characters in their respective games though. Both seem less like deserving additions and more like "oh this character would fit the skeleton well and we should have more Zelda reps because reasons." Neither is a member of the triforce trio, Link's main companion, or the main villain (Demise doesn't show until the end of the game so it's Ghirahim who got the support, whereas Ganondorf took over for Zant about halfway through Twilight Princess). At least Demise has gotten a trophy. Neither even made it into Hyrule Warriors as anything more than a color palette base, which was a "who's who" of Zelda characters.

I'd accept an Impa echo, but the big one I'd like to see is Midna. Her Twili form could easily be a Zelda echo with just a few effect recolors. Still, that does lead to the same issues of notability (Midna is much better known for her imp form, but both forms did make it into HW, and the Twili form is even used in Linkle's story mode), but also that Twilight Princess is missing among the representation of the Zelda characters we currently have.

 

[Untouch]

Did someone else besides me mention Poochy?
View attachment 157747

Also I find it slightly curious that the Woolly World stage is missing from the stage list. It very possible it was cut, but I don't see why. Orbital gate was suppose to be a giant time drain on development, Miiverse won't work due to Miiverse being discontinued, and jungle Hi-jinx might not work due to stage switching. What was so wrong with Woolly World?

its also possible that they just haven't shown off the stage yet, but why? Maybe to show off with a certain Woolly newcomer? That's a stretch but I'd like to dream.

I'm still riding on my theory that Poochie is a part of Yoshi's new FS. I mean they didn't show off ANY pirate ship level prior to K Rool's reveal so I don't think its out of the ordinary.
Or maybe we're getting Wooly Yoshi as an echo.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

To be fair Nintendo did used them for a while in their little DK games like Barrol Blast. The real culprits were Retro Studios, who when they decided to bring back the Country series, they opted for original (and quite forgettable, to be honest) villains.

I did like Barrel Blast's new Kremlings. No idea what went through Retro's heads, although I wouldn't be surprised if Miyamoto had some say on things there.

Did someone else besides me mention Poochy?
View attachment 157747

Also I find it slightly curious that the Woolly World stage is missing from the stage list. It very possible it was cut, but I don't see why. Orbital gate was suppose to be a giant time drain on development, Miiverse won't work due to Miiverse being discontinued, and jungle Hi-jinx might not work due to stage switching. What was so wrong with Woolly World?

its also possible that they just haven't shown off the stage yet, but why? Maybe to show off with a certain Woolly newcomer? That's a stretch but I'd like to dream.

Yeah, that seems possible. Plus the fact they haven't shown off every stage yet. Both him and Woolly World being DLC? Only time will tell.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I did like Barrel Blast's new Kremlings. No idea what went through Retro's heads, although I wouldn't be surprised if Miyamoto had some say on things there.



Yeah, that seems possible. Plus the fact they haven't shown off every stage yet. Both him and Woolly World being DLC? Only time will tell.

I don't think Miyamoto is to blame. He is usually against creating new characters while he prefers using existing ones, so I don't see him suggesting to cut the Kremlins in favour of new villains like the Snowmads.

 

[Opossum]

Frogger. better assist. Like Bomberman. Goemon is much more iconic than Frogger. Especially in Japan.

Maybe in Japan exclusively, but outside Japan?

In the west, Goemon is a Literally Who-tier character, while Frogger is one of the single most recognizable arcade games of all time. And after Crash he's my personal third party dream pick.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Thinking over how the different 3rd parties are working, with most to least input.

Capcom: You want Mega Man, done. Ryu? Done. A rathalos? Those are popular these days, done!
Konami: You want Snake back? We'll do you better and throw in a couple Belmonts
Namco: Sure, you can use the entire Arcade library. Just don't change Pac-Man's colors
Sega: Sure but if Sonic's colors look even a mite like another one of his pals we're out.
Square: You got Cloud. What more do you want?!

Actually Konami's more like "WE GIVE YOU WHATEVER YOU WANT!!! WE ARE DESPERATE FOR GOOD PUBLICITY!!!"

Sega: Also add in Shadow as a playable character, make Knuckles an assist, have two Sonic stages, and don’t kiil Sonic like y’all did Mario...do all this and we’ll make the next set of Sonic games Nintendo exclusive
Capcom: You brought Mega Man back to life...one you must end him for fun
Namco: Let Pac-Man accept death
Konami: Snake needs a real home and we need to keep this positive relevancy given to us
Square: ...two songs, one stage, a Mii costume, and no good alt colors...that’s all y’all getting from us

 

[Pyra]

Maybe in Japan exclusively, but outside Japan?

In the west, Goemon is a Literally Who-tier character

A lot of my interests were shaped by that "who-tier" character...

Which kinda makes it hard to talk about because nobody knows who he is here and isn't interested haha.

Though it's not like Japan really particularly cared about Little Mac, so... but he's first party, lucky him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Maybe in Japan exclusively, but outside Japan?

In the west, Goemon is a Literally Who-tier character, while Frogger is one of the single most recognizable arcade games of all time. And after Crash he's my personal third party dream pick.

Should there be a third Konami character, Frogger would be next, being one of the biggest video game icons ever alongside being the third biggest selling Konami franchise after Metal Gear and Castlevania (Not counting the soccer IP).

I think Frogger is a pretty reasonable choice, should the scenario happen. But as of now, I can see Frogger being saved for DLC.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I have a small little theory I concocted this morning:

As you all know, we just had our first new, unique third party in the form of Simon Belmont. I personally believe that Simon will not be only unique third party present in Ultimate's roster, based on this quote about Sakurai here:

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

"—Final Fantasy VII (FFVII below) has never been released on a Nintendo console, so how did Cloud end up appearing in Smash?

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left."

What this strongly suggests to me is that there will be, at least, 1 or 2 more third party newcomers from Japanese franchises that are globally popular after Castlevania, going by what Sakurai said about not having "that many left." Which franchises they could is a bit of a mystery, but if I were to guess them, I believe it would be a character from Tekken and Resident Evil, followed by Kingdom Hearts and Professor Layton if there are more third parties he has planned for Ultimate's roster.

The problem with us getting another third party is that Nintendo is already paying a LOT for them:

- SEGA for Sonic, Knuckles, probably Shadow, and Bayonetta
- Konami for Snake, Simon, Richter, and Bomberman
- Capcom for Mega Man, Zero, and Ryu
- Square Enix for Cloud, who is probably the most expensive of these characters
- Namco for PAC-MAN, as well as the, like, 30 obscure franchises and games he makes references to
- Yacht Club Games for Shovel Knight

With all this in mind I don't know if Nintendo is gonna be willing to pay for more characters, at least from companies not mentioned above. That said, Nintendo is so filthy stinkin' rich they could rival Disney if they wanted to, so maybe cost wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Just some food for thought I suppose.

 

[Pyra]

Should there be a third Konami character, Frogger would be next, being one of the biggest video game icons ever alongside being the third biggest selling Konami franchise after Metal Gear and Castlevania (Not counting the soccer IP).

I think Frogger is a pretty reasonable choice, should the scenario happen. But as of now, I can see Frogger being saved for DLC.

The only thing that would amuse me about Frogger being in is that it would make Captain Falcon's final smash a bit more hilarious.
But to each their own haha

 

[DarkShadow20]

I don't think Miyamoto is to blame. He is usually against creating new characters while he prefers using existing ones, so I don't see him suggesting to cut the Kremlins in favour of new villains like the Snowmads.

Actually, Miyamoto did suggest they not use the Kremlings and create something new.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

A lot of my interests were shaped by that "who-tier" character...

Which kinda makes it hard to talk about because nobody knows who he is here and isn't interested haha.

Though it's not like Japan really particularly cared about Little Mac, so... but he's first party, lucky him.

Also, 4 of his games got here, 4. One of them isn't so hot, but still. It's still more than what Starfy got.

Konami Krazy Racers was also a thing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Skull Kid would be awesome, but I'm a bit hesitant to celebrate the Zelda series being bloated with more clones than it already has.

While Impa is deserving, she's also very forgettable in each of her games. She's work well as a Sheik echo (now that transformations are out, Impa probably should have been the original), but I don't see them giving her enough thought to give her one of her Hyrule Warriors kits (the naginata was way more fitting)

Demise and Hilda are both one-offs whose popularity was eclipsed by tons of other characters in their respective games though. Both seem less like deserving additions and more like "oh this character would fit the skeleton well and we should have more Zelda reps because reasons." Neither is a member of the triforce trio, Link's main companion, or the main villain (Demise doesn't show until the end of the game so it's Ghirahim who got the support, whereas Ganondorf took over for Zant about halfway through Twilight Princess). At least Demise has gotten a trophy. Neither even made it into Hyrule Warriors as anything more than a color palette base, which was a "who's who" of Zelda characters.

I'd accept an Impa echo, but the big one I'd like to see is Midna. Her Twili form could easily be a Zelda echo with just a few effect recolors. Still, that does lead to the same issues of notability (Midna is much better known for her imp form, but both forms did make it into HW, and the Twili form is even used in Linkle's story mode), but also that Twilight Princess is missing among the representation of the Zelda characters we currently have.

Yes but at the very least, Impa is still appearing. Midna is not. And Impa had just about as great as a role in Skyward Sword as Midna had, potentially even greater cause it influences the timeline far more.

Impa also has a future in the franchise, Midna really doesn't have that.

She's a overall way more 'safe' addition to add than Midna, or any other Zelda character. There's immensive Sheikah lore build up in Breath of the Wild. It's unlikely they are going to ditch all that. Therefore I think it's likely Impa will have more strong roles in the upcoming Zelda games. She missed out with Breath of the Wild, but that doesn't mean she won't have a future ahead.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Actually, Miyamoto did suggest they not use the Kremlings and create something new.

What, really? Have any sources about this? I'm legitimately curious about this.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I dont think that is true. Frogger is recognizable worldwide, far outside of the video game audience. It was also an insanely huge game in Japan, as far back as 1981 when it wasnt even available in America right away. Japan is who launched Frogger.

Dont fall victim to the echo chamber. Youre not gonna see Goemon in a movie with Pacman and Galaga. We've seen Frogger do that.

Would argue about the echo chamber comment on Frogger. He is not that relevant anymore and only really gets remembered for his first game in the arcade. He is like what you mentioned with Galaga, an item.

Goemon is much larger a series in japan than Frogger ever was and you are using a western lens there.

Maybe in Japan exclusively, but outside Japan?

In the west, Goemon is a Literally Who-tier character, while Frogger is one of the single most recognizable arcade games of all time. And after Crash he's my personal third party dream pick.

Frogger is a Who character now-a-days. He was not even that popular as time went on. Last game I remember him in was the Frogger 2 game on the dreamcast.

 

[BluePikmin11]

The problem with us getting another third party is that Nintendo is already paying a LOT for them:

- SEGA for Sonic, Knuckles, probably Shadow, and Bayonetta
- Konami for Snake, Simon, Richter, and Bomberman
- Capcom for Mega Man, Zero, and Ryu
- Square Enix for Cloud, who is probably the most expensive of these characters
- Namco for PAC-MAN, as well as the, like, 30 obscure franchises and games he makes references to
- Yacht Club Games for Shovel Knight

With all this in mind I don't know if Nintendo is gonna be willing to pay for more characters, at least from companies not mentioned above. That said, Nintendo is so filthy stinkin' rich they could rival Disney if they wanted to, so maybe cost wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Just some food for thought I suppose.

I think Smash Ultimate has a big enough budget to license a hundred third-party IPs for various kinds of content at this point. Nintendo will probably pour as much money to Sakurai and Namco Bandai to make the roster truly the dream game that everyone will buy this holiday season.

 

[Enchess]

A lot of my interests were shaped by that "who-tier" character...

Which kinda makes it hard to talk about because nobody knows who he is here and isn't interested haha.

Though it's not like Japan really particularly cared about Little Mac, so... but he's first party, lucky him.

As much as I know people hate hearing this, the difference is market size.

But honestly I'd root for Goemon if he was 1st party. Who-tier is a great tier and it's sad people aren't willing to embrace it more. As a kid I loved Ness and Marth because of the air of mystery around them as characters I had never hear of. Then with Brawl, I loved Lucas and ROB because they introduced me to parts of Nintendo I never knew about before. Sm4sh only introduced characters I know. That's less fun. This why I want Lip despite not knowing a thing about her. It's not a wasted slot just because the character isn't popular. It introduces players to something new.