Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pyra]

As much as I know people hate hearing this, the difference is market size.

But honestly I'd root for Goemon if he was 1st party. Who-tier is a great tier and it's sad people aren't willing to embrace it more. As a kid I loved Ness and Marth because of the air of mystery around them as characters I had never hear of. Then with Brawl, I loved Lucas and ROB because they introduced me to parts of Nintendo I never knew about before. Sm4sh only introduced characters I know. That's less fun. This why I want Lip despite not knowing a thing about her. It's not a wasted slot just because the character isn't popular. It introduces players to something new.

I mean, it's not like i'm not fully aware of all the reasons why Goemon is unlikely (it's why his name is red in my signature).

But yeah, i agree. Who-tier is fun tier.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem with us getting another third party is that Nintendo is already paying a LOT for them:

- SEGA for Sonic, Knuckles, probably Shadow, and Bayonetta
- Konami for Snake, Simon, Richter, and Bomberman
- Capcom for Mega Man, Zero, and Ryu
- Square Enix for Cloud, who is probably the most expensive of these characters
- Namco for PAC-MAN, as well as the, like, 30 obscure franchises and games he makes references to
- Yacht Club Games for Shovel Knight

With all this in mind I don't know if Nintendo is gonna be willing to pay for more characters, at least from companies not mentioned above. That said, Nintendo is so filthy stinkin' rich they could rival Disney if they wanted to, so maybe cost wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Just some food for thought I suppose.

They also have to pay The Tetris Company for the rights to Tetris: Type A/B. It's not as big as characters are, but the TTC can be pretty sue-happy about these things.

 

[DarkShadow20]

What, really? Have any sources about this? I'm legitimately curious about this.

Around the 5:50 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAw2UnqHJt0&t=375s

 

[MalcolmBelmont]

Chris and Leon would be interesting because they both represent their series pretty equally, at least for nintendo of course.

Yeah if Capcom gets another rep they could be cool and honestly would be different enough from Snake

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So messing around with Roster maker and the current roster, with the random button included, makes a nice rectangle.

I know it's not proof of 10 more characters (roster in last direct was 10 wide) but it's a fun number to work with.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Been thinking about how Octolings as an Inkling Echo would work and I think I'm figuring things out.

• How could we solve the fact that two different characters might have the same ink color? Well, much like Lucina and very likely Chrom, Octolings could be a more standardized version of their original, meaning that the gimmick of inking people could be removed, but deal damage that's more of less in-between the Inklings' fully inked and non-inked damage.
• Octoshot would be the neutral B and an Octobrush would be used as the forward smash. They don't really change anything, they're just a neat touch.
• Down B would be the Burst Bomb, which would be weaker than the Splat Bombs, but explode on contact.
• Final Smash could be anything, really, but an idea I really like is what I call "Splashstrike". It'd basically be the Splashdown special from Splatoon 2, except it would form a column of ink like the Inkstrike special from the original.

 

[Kuon]

The world would be upside down if Goku from Dragonball Z was included in Smash Bros Ultimate.

Some people will be very happy and some people will be very mad, because they feel anime and manga characters have no place in Smash and those spots should be reserved for videogame characters, which I think is fair

 

[Pyra]

So messing around with Roster maker and the current roster, with the random button included, makes a nice rectangle.

I know it's not proof of 10 more characters (roster in last direct was 10 wide) but it's a fun number to work with.

That's without combining echos into their "others", right?

 

[Enchess]

They also have to pay The Tetris Company for the rights to Tetris: Type A/B. It's not as big as characters are, but the TTC can be pretty sue-happy about these things.

The songs? Weren't those already public domain by the time Tetris came out originally? I guess since they use the titles they probably have to pay for that, but that's probably a fraction of the cost of a song

Edit: Nevermind... Somehow Tetris Company obtained exclusive rights when it comes to a song made 100 yrs before the game... How is that legal..? Like, if I made a video game with Row Your Boat in it, could I trademark it without making any contribution to the original song and with it already being in public domain? Yes I guess...?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

- Capcom for Mega Man, Zero, and Ryu

RIP Rathalos

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That's without combining echos into their "others", right?

Yeah and with Mii fighters as one slot.

 

[NextChannelGames]

They also have to pay The Tetris Company for the rights to Tetris: Type A/B. It's not as big as characters are, but the TTC can be pretty sue-happy about these things.

I have to wonder how much is the song from TTC?

 

[Rockaphin]

Decided to do the "Most Wanted" List:

Spoiler

I'm really wanting more Street Fighter and anything from the Mario RPG games. I tried to keep all of the characters on here reasonable.

 

[NextChannelGames]

As much as I know people hate hearing this, the difference is market size.

But honestly I'd root for Goemon if he was 1st party. Who-tier is a great tier and it's sad people aren't willing to embrace it more. As a kid I loved Ness and Marth because of the air of mystery around them as characters I had never hear of. Then with Brawl, I loved Lucas and ROB because they introduced me to parts of Nintendo I never knew about before. Sm4sh only introduced characters I know. That's less fun. This why I want Lip despite not knowing a thing about her. It's not a wasted slot just because the character isn't popular. It introduces players to something new.

I agree!

 

[Deleted member]

The songs? Weren't those already public domain by the time Tetris came out originally? I guess since they use the titles they probably have to pay for that, but that's probably a fraction of the cost of a song

Tetris: Type A/B are listed in Brawl's sound test as "Courtesy of The Tetris Company," which implies that they did have to pay for them. Both songs are based on Russian folk music and should technically be free to use, but TTC owns a copyright on the song in regards to its use in games. Seriously.

EDIT: Just noticed your edit, and yeah, it's really dumb. I have no idea how it was ever allowed.

 

[Enchess]

Tetris: Type A/B are listed in Brawl's sound test as "Courtesy of The Tetris Company," which implies that they did have to pay for them. Both songs are based on Russian folk music and should technically be free to use, but TTC owns a copyright on the song in regards to its use in games. Seriously.

I'm so confused why it's allowed to just grab exclusive rights to something already in public domain that you had no creative input on...but ok. I'm not arguing, you are right haha

 

[BluePikmin11]

Pac-Man's primetime peak of popularity came when its first arcade game debuted in 1980, yet was still added despite people not talking as much about the character anymore around the point of Smash 4's project plan.

Simon Belmont was added in Ultimate, despite the peaks of Castlevania popularity being around the times of the NES, SNES, PC-Engine and PS1.

I think it is a very bad argument to say that "irrelevance" and being "who-character now-a-days" would prevent Frogger's inclusion.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm so confused why it's allowed to just grab exclusive rights to something already in public domain that you had no creative input on...but ok. I'm not arguing, you are right haha

I mean, we do live in a world where a company that has made most of its profit off of works based on public domain fairy tales has almost single handedly extended the deadline of the public domain just to prevent their mascot from falling into public use.

 

[Pyra]

I'm so confused why it's allowed to just grab exclusive rights to something already in public domain that you had no creative input on...but ok. I'm not arguing, you are right haha

Aren't they technically only based on the folk songs?

With just the smallest amount of changes to make it "different", of course.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Pac-Man's primetime peak of popularity came when its first arcade game debuted in 1980, yet was still added despite people not talking as much about the character anymore around the point of Smash 4's project plan.

Simon Belmont was added in Ultimate, despite the peaks of Castlevania popularity being around the times of the NES, SNES, PC-Engine and PS1.

I think it is a very bad argument to say that "irrelevance" and being "who-character now-a-days" would prevent Frogger's inclusion.

Pac man is an iconic namco Mascot.
Castlevania is Casltevania.
Goemon was a poster boy for Konami all the way up to 2011.

Frogger was never on those levels. He is iconic, for sure.

Look at Super Bomberman R. There is a Goemon. No Frogger. Shows Konami's investment in the character.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Thinking over how the different 3rd parties are working, with most to least input.

Capcom: You want Mega Man, done. Ryu? Done. A rathalos? Those are popular these days, done!
Konami: You want Snake back? We'll do you better and throw in a couple Belmonts
Namco: Sure, you can use the entire Arcade library. Just don't change Pac-Man's colors
Sega: Sure but if Sonic's colors look even a mite like another one of his pals we're out.
Square: You got Cloud. What more do you want?!

Also Capcom: "You want your character to horrifically impale Mega Man? Yeah sure go ahead"

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Something just popped in my mind.

What if the reason Final Fantasy still has two songs is because Midgar has songs from multiple Squeenix IPs now?

 

[sdpdude9]

So I'm starting to believe more in Skull Kid. I thought the theory of the background during the direct pointing to him during the direct was bogus until I realized the first direct pointed to K Rool. There was even a barrel there! And the colors all were K Rool colors. If Sakurai is indeed playing games this only points to skull kid imo. Or maybe it's a crackpot theory, who knows ha ha.

 

[Zeox]

So I'm starting to believe more in Skull Kid. I thought the theory of the background during the direct pointing to him during the direct was bogus until I realized the first direct pointed to K Rool. There was even a barrel there! And the colors all were K Rool colors. If Sakurai is indeed playing games this only points to skull kid imo. Or maybe it's a crackpot theory, who knows ha ha.

It was decorated as a treehouse decoration more than a DK decoration.

 

[Bowserlick]

This collection of newcomers looks like it was directly pulled from the ballot.

If there is DLC, then I'd expect some of the newer characters that gained prominence after the ballot.
Elma (or some other Xenoblade character), Alolan Pokemon, ARMS, maybe a Fire Emblem character, ect.

 

[DarkShadow20]

So I'm starting to believe more in Skull Kid. I thought the theory of the background during the direct pointing to him during the direct was bogus until I realized the first direct pointed to K Rool. There was even a barrel there! And the colors all were K Rool colors. If Sakurai is indeed playing games this only points to skull kid imo. Or maybe it's a crackpot theory, who knows ha ha.

They do seem to be hinting at things more this time around. His red eye tweet right before the direct, then we got the "Bloody Tears" Castlevania song and K Rool who has a red eye. Also, DK was in the same pose as Karate Joe in Rhythm Heaven while watching the TV, and then the Rathalos pic that looks like a Golden Sun battle.

 

[Kuon]

People have been saying if I can't upload pictures that I should go to support, but there are 70 pages on there. How am I supposed to find the one that talks about uploading photos?

 

[Fatmanonice]

The more time passes the more that I think an ARMS and second Xenoblade rep will be skipped over for the initial roster at the very least because, unlike the last three Smash games, Sakurai seems to care a lot less about modern relevance and is more focused on going through the back catalogue of fan demands. I feel like this past Direct was really indicative of that, given we got not one but four characters who haven't had a notable game appearance in nearly a decade. Plus, there's always a chance that Sakurai is holding his cards for future games too and characters like Spring Man are basically the new Inkling, a character people all but expect in Smash at some point but now it's only a matter of when. I think that's why he's finally caving to a lot of long time fan demands so that a hypothetical Smash 6 would have a much "fresher" roster and not the toys in the attic feel that a lot of the newcomers in this game have.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

That's without combining echos into their "others", right?

Yeah and with Mii fighters as one slot.

This has been my issue with trying to make a nice looking roster...there is no way. I made a really nice 8 down 10 across roster organized by series, because with the amount of customization we are getting I bet we can sort it by both like the website, but that gets all screwed around if you do it by number or even worse put together echoes. Heck, do we even know if combining echoes is all at once, or maybe we can pick and choose which are combined?

This leaves me hopless at creating an aesthetically pleasing CSS and I love doing that lol. I do hope we can organize by series though. I like seeing them in order of release, but it has always looked much nicer organized by series.

 

[ErenJager]

Pac-Man's primetime peak of popularity came when its first arcade game debuted in 1980, yet was still added despite people not talking as much about the character anymore around the point of Smash 4's project plan.

Simon Belmont was added in Ultimate, despite the peaks of Castlevania popularity being around the times of the NES, SNES, PC-Engine and PS1.

I think it is a very bad argument to say that "irrelevance" and being "who-character now-a-days" would prevent Frogger's inclusion.

I very easily see classic frogger being an assist trophy... I imagine the screen having a game of frogger over lap it and cars just start hitting players.

Sorta like the Pong (not actually pong i know) assist trophy.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well now we know how wide the roster is, I took a crack at a final prediction of 10 more characters (6 chars, 4 echos)

For the record

Newcomers: Isabelle, Skull Kid, Bandanna Dee, Gen 7 Pokemon (Incenaroar), Gardevoir, Geno
Echos: Impa, Shadow, Ken, Gothitelle

My wanted roster is basically the same except Hilda replaces Impa, Roll replaces Ken and the Gen 7 Pokemon is Tsareena.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The more time passes the more that I think an ARMS and second Xenoblade rep will be skipped over for the initial roster at the very least because, unlike the last three Smash games, Sakurai seems to care a lot less about modern relevance and is more focused on going through the back catalogue of fan demands. I feel like this past Direct was really indicative of that, given we got not one but four characters who haven't had a notable game appearance in nearly a decade. Plus, there's always a chance that Sakurai is holding his cards for future games too and characters like Spring Man are basically the new Inkling, a character people all but expect in Smash at some point but now it's only a matter of when. I think that's why he's finally caving to a lot of long time fan demands so that a hypothetical Smash 6 would have a much "fresher" roster and not the toys in the attic feel that a lot of the newcomers in this game have.

Or these modernly relevant people could be DLC too?

 

[dezeray112]

Should there be a third Konami character, Frogger would be next, being one of the biggest video game icons ever alongside being the third biggest selling Konami franchise after Metal Gear and Castlevania (Not counting the soccer IP).

I think Frogger is a pretty reasonable choice, should the scenario happen. But as of now, I can see Frogger being saved for DLC.

Konami had so many good franchises back then. Whilst I can't say much about Frogger (as I am not familiar with the franchise, here are some other Konami franchises that I would like to see either as a collectable trophy or assist trophy:

• Goemon from the Mystical Ninja Goemon.
• Power Pro-Kun from the Power Pro series.
• Maoi from Gradius.
• Yugo from Bloody Roar.
• Bear Tank from Rakuga Kids.
• Twinbee from Twinbee.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Well now we know how wide the roster is, I took a crack at a final prediction of 10 more characters (6 chars, 4 echos)

View attachment 157756

For the record

Newcomers: Isabelle, Skull Kid, Bandanna Dee, Gen 7 Pokemon (Incenaroar), Gardevoir, Geno
Echos: Impa, Shadow, Ken, Gothitelle

My wanted roster is basically the same except Hilda replaces Impa, Roll replaces Ken and the Gen 7 Pokemon is Tsareena.

I'll have to post the one I made by series when I'm home. It's not using the same characters but it's interesting how it works out.

For example I don't think Mario is getting any more characters, Zelda will get two more (Impa & Skull Kid), and Pokemon will get one more (Gen 7), causing them all to have 8 roster slots. So the three biggest series take up a whole column, which is neat I think. (Unfortunately Fire Emblem is one off from doing the same, but I don't wanna predict another Fire Emblem character lol).

 

[Deleted member]

Tried sorting by series.

tbh, I think the order by number is starting to grow on me.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Something just popped in my mind.

What if the reason Final Fantasy still has two songs is because Midgar has songs from multiple Squeenix IPs now?

Like TWEWY, NieR, Star Ocean, Bravely Default/Second, Chrono Trigger/Cross?

God that would be amazing even if we never get Neku

...and I now realize Fallout (Bethesda) representation would be even harder cause most of Fallout’s iconic tracks are licensed mainstream music oof

 

[Lady Byakugan]

When you think about it, Skull Kid as a Zelda newcomer makes sense.

Because, when we speak of the regular Zelda characters outside of the Triforce trio, there's Impa, who can make in as a echo, Tingle, who returns as a stage element and likely as an AT as well, Vaati, who is now a forgotten character mostly known under his monsterous form, and also Skull Kid.

And Majora's Mask (the item) is now one of the most recurring artifacts in the series as well along with the Triforce itself, also making camoes in other Nintendo games such as Animal Crossing.

Now the question is, what his moveset would consist of? And wouldn't having the Moon as his FS wouldn't be kinda redundant?

Said this before, but the move set can be the following:

Have his attacks from the Majora boss fight (lasers, whips, energy balls)
Have elements of the other masks (Deku flowers, Bomb mask)
Have elements from his pranks (Poisoning the swamp can be converted to some poison-based attack)
Have elements from cut scenes (levitation, invisibility)
Have elements from TP and OOT Skull Kids (Puppets)
Have Tael and Tatl as companions for combat (like Peach with Toad)

 

[Kuon]

Tried sorting by series.

View attachment 157760

tbh, I think the order by number is starting to grow on me.

How did you do that? I mean, not only were you able to upload an image, but you also made a roster, which I don't know how to do either. The only option I have for uploading an image is to paste the URL, which when I try to do that, it tells me that something went wrong and that I need to contact an administrator, so I'm stumped on what to do.

 

[TylerBlackRunIt]

I finally learn how to import mods in super smash bro wiiu

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Honestly, one of the things that I love about ands inclusion is that we've gotten something that's kinda been missing, newcomer-wise, since Smash 4: giant powerhouse characters. These two guys really help round out the Ultimate newcomer roster in terms of diversity.