Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Thirdkoopa]

oh on my "characters after last Smash game" I forgot Bandana Waddle Dee, but he was made before anyways.

 

[MalcolmBelmont]

Considering the amount of modern fanservice in Smash 4, I feel like some older fanservice in Ultimate is justified. Obviously there needs to be some balance though.

I feel Gen 7 will be a good modern fanservice

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which is what Blazer does. An upward slash. It's still a modification of Roy's move overall. That's literally how it works. At first. It's a combo move overall that borrows from both.

Not that it matters, since we still know why it all worked out. Ike, Marth, Chrom, and Roy all share similar builds, so pulling animations from another is easy. What it doesn't mean is that an Echo can have any move from any character. Chrom just proves that they can borrow animations from a character with a similar build.

Irene. Stop trying to think you're right, Blazer and Dolphin Slash have the user swing the sword while going diagonally. Chrom's initial sword swing stays on the ground and launches the opponents upwards, which he then chases with his spin attack by going straight up and not diagonally, which is the same as Ike only he doesn't throw his Falchion. It isn't a borrowed animation, it's a borrowed move

 

[dezeray112]

So here's another game, since Simon, a newcomer 3rd party character got an echo, what would your wanted 3rd party character's echo be?

Lloyd Irving- Cless Alvein(Tales of Phantasia)
Ryu Hayabusa- Kasumi?
Reimu- Marisa or Sanae
Arle Nadja- Amitie

Ryu - Between Ken Masters, Akuma or Sakura.
Sonic - Shadow.
Bayonetta - Jeanne.
Cloud Strife - Zack Fair.
Phoenix Wright - Miles Edgeworth.
Heihachi Mishima or Jin Kazama - Kazuya Mishima.

 

[MainJPW]

I'd honestly rather have



or



They'd both fit perfectly for a reveal trailer

Vengence is Mine would be dope. Holy **** that works so well for a trailer.

 

[Bayopuff]

I wish Red used all 3 final evolutions. Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't es cool as their final forms.

I completely disagree with you, I think Ivysaur and Squirtle are much more fun to play as than their final evolutions.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well, I found my actual Top 10 Newcomer list, and overall it's looking better than I thought!

1. Shantae
2. Shovel Knight
3. Simon
4. Rayman
5. Mona
6. Captain Syrup
7. Birdo
8. King K. Rool
9. Dixie Kong
10. Cranky Kong

Although some of these are still in danger. That being said:

Hard Lock: Dixie Kong
Most Wanted First Party: Mona
Most Wanted Third Party: Shantae
Will Get Their Chance Another Day: Shovel Knight
Most Wanted Boss: Heavy Lobster
Most Wanted Assist: Tifa Lockheart
Most Wanted Pokeball Pokemon: Pachirisu
Most Wanted Stage Setting: Mirage Saloon Zone

 

[vaanrose]

Actually, it is. That's literally a modification of Blazer/Dolphin Slash at the start. However, I did legit post too soon. He does have the final animation from Ike.

Not that it much changes my key point either way; Echoes only have attack animation from characters with near identical models/skeletons. This is why I don't think Dixie Kong will get a modified version of Spinning Kong right out. It's more likely she'll have her hair as a prop and have a hard animation created for it, while it might use some of the frame data, possibly of R.O.B.'s spinning move, as it may have an actual better animation to pull from. Functionally and conceptually, it'll obviously be akin to Spinning Kong. But that's kind of like how Lucario's Counter is similar to the FE cast's Counter. It doesn't work the same way, just a similar concept.

Re: the skeleton thing.

All the echoes have been reanimated. Sometimes just a bit, sometimes completely, from the ground up. The usual pipeline for a game like this is a homogenized skeleton system, and Smash has done exactly that in Brawl and Smash 4. This allows porting animations between every character in the game, regardless of model (and what allows goofy stuff like Ganonchu).

The point is, yes, a direct port of DK's Spinning Kong on to Dixie's model would probably be broken and ridiculous looking. But they have shown a willingness to reanimate, so, in effect, all they're porting is the functionality of the move. Aesthetically it'd be rebuilt to better suit her.

 

[Idon]

I completely disagree with you, I think Ivysaur and Squirtle are much more fun to play as than their final evolutions.

You can like them more, sure, but I don't think you can compare playing them more than their final evolutions if, you know, they've never been playable.

 

[Deleted member]

Chrom's initial slash in his Up-B is literally unrecognizable from any other move in the game
I don't know how any of you can look at these and go "yeah that looks like Roy/Ike"

 

[Will]

Chrom's initial slash in his Up-B is literally unrecognizable from any other move in the game
I don't know how any of you can look at these and go "yeah that looks like Roy/Ike"
View attachment 157129View attachment 157130

Yeah that looks like Ike.

 

[Mutsukki]

You can like them more, sure, but I don't think you can compare playing them more than their final evolutions if, you know, they've never been playable.

You can though, I also think having their final evolutions would be way less fun than what we have now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Chrom's initial slash in his Up-B is literally unrecognizable from any other move in the game
I don't know how any of you can look at these and go "yeah that looks like Roy/Ike"
View attachment 157129View attachment 157130

The Ike comparison is because it's the initial hit like how Ike swings his sword upwards, after that the move's pretty much the same

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What do you mean? I'm not sure how it can be Blazer with Ragnell's animation...

It means it's a modification of both moves. Well, that's the point I was making. But yeah, I misunderstood it. My other point is more important.

Blazer and Dolphin Slash have the user swing the sword while going diagonally. Chrom's initial sword swing stays on the ground and launches the opponents upwards, which he then chases with his spin attack by going straight up and not diagonally, which is the same as Ike only he doesn't throw his Falchion. It isn't a borrowed animation, it's a borrowed move

Ah, I misunderstood what people meant. But see my important point, which wasn't an error I made(of how characters can get a move from another, but we know for a fact using a character with the same build is something too. It may or may not be a requirement, but it's something that does exist. Yeah, this is worded kind of oddly).

Re: the skeleton thing.

All the echoes have been reanimated. Sometimes just a bit, sometimes completely, from the ground up. The usual pipeline for a game like this is a homogenized skeleton system, and Smash has done exactly that in Brawl and Smash 4. This allows porting animations between every character in the game, regardless of model (and what allows goofy stuff like Ganonchu).

The point is, yes, a direct port of DK's Spinning Kong on to Dixie's model would probably be broken and ridiculous looking. But they have shown a willingness to reanimate, so, in effect, all they're porting is the functionality of the move. Aesthetically it'd be rebuilt to better suit her.

I don't see it happening, honestly. That's a crapload of work as long as the skeleton doesn't match the character. It's not aesthetics as an issue, they're 100% different skeletons.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Chrom's initial slash in his Up-B is literally unrecognizable from any other move in the game
I don't know how any of you can look at these and go "yeah that looks like Roy/Ike"
View attachment 157129View attachment 157130

I was about to mention this. I thought I was the only one who realized that Chrom's up b has him do a swipe upward before using aether.

 

[Bayopuff]

You can like them more, sure, but I don't think you can compare playing them more than their final evolutions if, you know, they've never been playable.

Maybe a good way to make them playable would be as Squirtle and Ivysaur's Final Smashes, maybe they could evolve into their respective final evolutions during the rest of the battle? It's extremely Farfetch'd (eh? eh?) and has almost no chance of happening whatsoever, but it's still fun to think about it.

 

[Chandeelure]

I made this thing.

 

[Will]

I was about to mention this. I thought I was the only one who realized that Chrom's up b has him do a swipe upward before using aether.

It's Ike's upsmash but faster and less powerful

 

[ThatRedPlumber]

Coming in late, let me give my thoughts on the 5&5 game.



Unique:
1. Geno (Mario)
2. Bandana Dee (Kirby)
3. Lycanroc or Decidueye (Pokémon)
4. Elma (Xenoblade)
5. Hunter? (Monster Hunter)

Echo:
1. Isabelle (Animal Crossing)
2. Shadow (Sonic)
3. Ken (Street Fighter)
4. Dixie Kong (more of a semi clone) (Donkey King)
5. Impa (Legend of Zelda)


DLC:
1. Rex/Pyra (Xenoblade)
2. Springman (Arms) (maybe bundled with a Ribbongirl echo?)
3. Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven)
4. Banjo & Kazooie (Banjo-Kazooie)
5. Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm still kind of evil and want a Jeanne echo.

Just because I want to watch the world burn.

Also because you know she's my homegirl and Bayonetta needs her lesbian lover.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Let me dream.

Dream you must

Nonsense, there's always room for more canines.

Fox won’t approve, and they would all have to attend canine school

I found somebody who made this joke tier list on Reddit. How would react to see your main or any character where they are?

I don't want see Link that low, or Toon Link, Mega Man, Fox, Mewtwo, Greninja, Wolf, and about any character I care about.

I find it weird how thisnlist separated Pit and Dark Pit from each other even though they’ve shared a tier spot as well as practically everything competitive wise...also need to be higher, somewhat higher aswell (mid tier range), and must go down to B

 

[Idon]

You can though, I also think having their final evolutions would be way less fun than what we have now.

Can you really say something like "I like chocolate more than vanilla" if you've never tasted vanilla?

 

[Mutsukki]

Can you really say something like "I like chocolate more than vanilla" if you've never tasted vanilla?

No, but I can safely say I'd rather eat mozarella pizza instead of pineapple pizza because the latter looks disgusting even though I never tasted it. (No offense to pineapple pizza lovers...)

 

[RandomAce]

EDIT: Sorry Rie.

Irene you are deadass WRONG. it's literally Aether but he doesn't throw the sword. He even swings his sword which launches upwards to start off the attack and then combo into the spinny stuff.

The first part is also literally Ike’s up Smash but much faster.

So, Chrom’s up special didn’t take that much to make now that I think about it.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I have this strange feeling because of that Team Geno or Team Mallow thing?

Sakurai might have been a mad man and added them both.

They both have vastly different things they could do and both fit into Smash.

 

[vaanrose]

I don't see it happening, honestly. That's a crapload of work as long as the skeleton doesn't match the character. It's not aesthetics as an issue, they're 100% different skeletons.

They're not 100% different skeletons. Every single character is built with the same joint hierarchy, regardless of shape or size. The only differences in skeletons is joint placement in 3D space, and additional joints added to the end of the hierarchy if needed. You can, right now, go into Smash 4 and mod spinning kong on to Duck Hunt and he'll do the animation. It'll look stupid, but it will function. And that's without joint retargeting.

Joint retargeting is the technique that every modern game uses to allow the same animations to function on characters of different sizes. This technique does not shift the retargeted joints in 3D space (like you get when porting animations in Brawl, which gives you Ganonchu), it only reorients them. This is why in an online game with customizable characters, they can all do the same canned animations, or how Andy Serkis, a human shaped human, can perform motion capture for a chimpanzee.

Basically, it's like this. You take an arm. At it's most basic, it has three joints. The shoulder, the elbow, the wrist. You have an animation of a character with a long arm, and you want to port it on to a character with a smaller arm. As long as they have the same joint hierarchy, which all Smash characters do, you can retarget this animation on to the smaller model quite easily, and there's even math involved that can compensate for the fact that the joints would need to rotate less on the smaller arm to reach the same position as the longer one.

It's actually not nearly as much work as completely reanimating everything Dark Samus does. This technique was invented in the first place to save time.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah that looks like Ike.

Ok, they look similar, I'll give you that, but they're still not the same.

The Ike comparison is because it's the initial hit like how Ike swings his sword upwards, after that the move's pretty much the same

Gwen please shut the **** up have you ever seen his Up B?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The first part is literally Ike’s up Smash but much faster.

So, Chrom’s up special didn’t take that much too make.

Did you quote Rie and I by accident? Oh, and my point wasn't that it took trouble to make but that it wasn't Dolphin Slash or Blazer

 

[Deleted member]

I have this strange feeling because of that Team Geno or Team Mallow thing?

Sakurai might have been a mad man and added them both.

They both have vastly different things they could do and both fit into Smash.

Square letting Sakurai use two of their most obscure characters but only 2 Final Fantasy songs? That's cute.

 

[Mutsukki]

Gwen please shut the **** up have you ever seen his Up B?

Wow. I mean, every single person on this planet can see that Chrom's Up B is literally Ike's aether. I've yet to see one reaction video that doesn't outright say so. Or even from people here, how are you even denying them being the same move is far beyond me.

 

[Shroob]

Honestly, the "Two Final Fantasy" songs is why I'm so damn suspect about the Neogaf leak last night.

I don't doubt that 'maybe' Square would let Sakurai use Terra, but at the same time, only music from FF7 would be really weird.

 

[RandomAce]

Did you quote Rie and I by accident? Oh, and my point wasn't that it took trouble to make but that it wasn't Dolphin Slash or Blazer

I think I did by accident.

Since I wanted to point out that Chrom’s Up Special is comprised of reused and repurposed animations.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

let's bring up a crazy possibility nobody in here has considered

While we know that Camelot is basically the last company that Nintendo basically has any stake in that doesn't have a character (last I checked) but... There's another studio that Nintendo owns 5% that should still be considered in the running.

Obviously not on-cart, but downloadable content? it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok, they look similar, I'll give you that, but they're still not the same.

Gwen please shut the **** up have you ever seen his Up B?

Shish I'm trying to simplify it for people who don't play Ike, do I need to talk about the great battle of 1999 where I singlehandedly beat 7 Roys by myself as Ike on Temple?

Square letting Sakurai use two of their most obscure characters but only 2 Final Fantasy songs? That's cute.

tbf Nobuo Uematsu demands royalties for his songs on top of licencing fees. idk how he did it but songs originally composed by him are more expensive by default

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I'm not sure if this helps inciniroar or not

Why does rool know about inciniroar little trick in the concept art

 

[Noipoi]

let's bring up a crazy possibility nobody in here has considered

While we know that Camelot is basically the last company that Nintendo basically has any stake in that doesn't have a character (last I checked) but... There's another studio that Nintendo owns 5% that should still be considered in the running.

Obviously not on-cart, but downloadable content? it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

What kinda character could Cygames even have?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The two Final Fantasy songs thing kinda has to stop being a bullet point until it actually MEANS something, because right now?

It means nothing.

At most? It just means Final Fantasy songs are worth a lot of money and Sakurai might be all ''MUH BUDGET."

Two obscure characters? Probably cost a lot less as do the songs tied to them than say some of the most memorable music in gaming.

Also you know he also probably spent a good chunk of cash on those 34 Castlevania songs.

 

[Shroob]

let's bring up a crazy possibility nobody in here has considered

While we know that Camelot is basically the last company that Nintendo basically has any stake in that doesn't have a character (last I checked) but... There's another studio that Nintendo owns 5% that should still be considered in the running.

Obviously not on-cart, but downloadable content? it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

Cygames?

Literally what would they do?


I actually play Granblue Fantasy and have friends who play Shadowverse, but those in Smash would be.........very ****ing weird.



Cygame's main game titles are:

Granblue Fantasy, Rage of Bahamut, most Idolmaster games: All gacha ****.
Shadowverse: A card game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not sure if this helps inciniroar or not

Why does rool know about inciniroar little trick in the concept art

I mean, it's a typical back breaker and K.Rool's got multiple martial arts incorporated into his moveset including boxing and sumo wrestling

 

[RandomAce]

let's bring up a crazy possibility nobody in here has considered

While we know that Camelot is basically the last company that Nintendo basically has any stake in that doesn't have a character (last I checked) but... There's another studio that Nintendo owns 5% that should still be considered in the running.

Obviously not on-cart, but downloadable content? it's not the craziest idea I've heard.

You mean Dragalia Lost? The new Nintendo IP by CYGames?

I think it’s a possibility for DLC. I mean, we can get another blond anime swordsman, Eudriel, but he can also turn into a dragon! I smell a Corrin Echo! (He’s probably going to be unique, which I honestly don’t mind because he is a new franchise).