Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dragoncharystary]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

Agree. That's why I think the characters would work best as pure echoes would be Chrom, Ninten, and Octoling currently, with Chrom being the most likely in my eyes.

 

[MSmariosonic]

I really have this feeling that Dixie will be an echo and it hurts saying it.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Remember, Corrin wasn’t added because he was important, or popular, or even because he was stand out unique, he was just added to promote Fire Emblem Fates. I don’t mean to compare but at least with Roy he would become important since his inclusion along with Marth’s Would gauge global interest for the Fire Emblem series, whereas Corrin still isn’t a very important character to the FE series. I’m not still hung up with his inclusion, I just don’t find him the best pick for a Fire Emblem character.

How do you gauge importance? Especially for a series that is constantly shuffling the main cast. Marth and Roy, to give an example, either show up as cameos via amiibo, or in spin-offs (Fire Emblem Heroes).

Is it about game sales? If so, Fates is one of, if not the best selling Fire Emblem game as of this moment.

Is it about popularity? Because Corrin is definitely a popular character. Corrin has a rather loud hatebase, which is clearly a minority since they’ve placed in the top 10 of every official poll.

Promotion wasn’t the only reason they were included either since Sakurai has gone on record saying that he was debating on whether to add them or not and one of the reasons he ultimately decided on doing so was because he found them unique.

 

[Will]

Wait, does Dark Samus even have the gear necessary to be Samus' echo? Like missiles, bombs, screwattack, I guess the charge shot is just Phazon but everything else though. I haven't played Prime 2 in ages.

 

[Koopaul]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

It's not like Dark Samus has a signature ability that would seem if odd if she didn't have it. Dixie Kong has her signature ponytail twirl that needs to be in there. But what does Dark Samus need? Sure she has lots of cool abilities that could make her a semi clone but there isn't anything she absolutely needs. For that reason she certainly could be an echo.

After all. All characters like Dark Pit and Dasiy could be semi clones with plenty of unique abilities to pull from, but they lack iconic signature moves and therefor are echos.

 

[Idon]

How do you gauge importance? Is it about game sales? If so, Fates is one of, if not the best selling Fire Emblem game as of this moment.

That'd hold water if those sales happened before his inclusion in Smash, Hey-o!

 

[MagnesD3]

Speaking of Bowser Junior, it upsets me when people want his move-set changed.
I like the way he is. Tricky with his mecha-koopas and Koopa Clown Car mechanic, how he can explode it and get a new one almost instantly, and hit you with like almost anything.

Changing him with the paintbrush would be a nice reference, but that is already his final smash.

The best case scenario would be for the koopalings to keep the clown car and be their own character and have bowser jr become his own character with the paint brush moveset but it’s never going to happen..

 

[Bowserlick]

Dixie Kong is a gift for development.

- With time constraints, Dixie lending herself to recycled assets and a possible semi-clone allows Sakurai to make a newcomer with less time.
- Dixie is popular enough, where she would be welcomed as a semi-clone.
- An echo though squanders her popularity and desire as a newcomer. You would essentially play Dixie w/o being able to use her hair or floating ability, which makes Dixie Dixie.

 

[KMDP]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

Agree. That's why I think the characters would work best as pure echoes would be Chrom, Ninten, and Octoling currently, with Chrom being the most likely in my eyes.

Safe to assume are Echoes: Chrom, Ninten, Octoling, Ken
Can be Clones, but should be more than just Echoes: Dixie, D. Samus, Shadow
Should be way more than an Echo: Tails

 

[IsmaR]

Wait, does Dark Samus even have the gear necessary to be Samus' echo? Like missiles, bombs, screwattack, I guess the charge shot is just Phazon but everything else though. I haven't played Prime 2 in ages.

She only has missiles. She's never shown using bombs, but she does have a Morph Ball/Boost Ball attack.

I've described her version of Up B being more like Samus' Custom Up B 3 (Apex Screw Attack), while the rest of her kit could take inspiration from the Assist Trophy.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

This could be said about any character though.
It's best to just look at if a character can be.

Personally at this point I hope we get an echo that surprises us all, because I feel like we've gone through all the same echoes.

Edit: Everyone please excuse my typos. Typing on mobile is hard :/

 

[Roberk]

I'll grant that Master Chief would be mind-blowing, and I certainly don't mind him from a character or moveset standpoint, but...

The reason he would be so mind-blowing to me is the fact we have yet to see Halo on Nintendo. Yes, he TECHNICALLY could work since there are Halo skins in Nintendo Minecraft, but even Final Fantasy had a large history with Nintendo when Cloud was added.

I would be very questionable of this decision.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Cloud has been our most "mind-blowing" character so far in terms of "he's not Nintendo", but even then FF has had a long history with Nintendo. Master Cheif would the true antithesis character, where Smash has grown so much it can add a character who's cross-promotion would seemingly hurt Nintendo as it's from a current competitor. That's the boundary that Smash has yet to cross, and I think Master Cheif would be the one.

 

[Idon]

This could be said about any character though.
It's best to just look at if a character can be.

Persoably at this point I hope we get an echo that surprises us all, because I feel like we've gone through all the same echoes.

I feel like an echo that surprises us would actually be unwanted, because if it's a surprising pick, 99.99% of people would rather that "Surprise!" be substantial and... y'know, worthwhile.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I think it would be a disservice to Dixie for her to be an Echo and certainly see her a strong candidate to get in as a normal newcomer (she's not as popular as K. Rool but still has respectable popularity and has both history and relevancy on her side), but nonetheless the possibility exists she could be an Echo until we see Diddy using his tail (sure his jab could just have a gentleman to it now and we just didn't him use the rapid-hitting part, but he didn't have the gentleman before so the suspicion remains) or Dixie is revealed in another role, and people denying it could happen because of misrepresentation are being like the Lucina and Daisy supporters who swore they wouldn't end up a Marth/Peach clone.

 

[BonafideFella]

Unpopular opinion but I think Dark Samus and Shadow are in the same place as Dixie Kong.

In theory, they COULD work as Echo fighters but that's really just doing a disservice to the characters.

All three should be semi-clones if they get in imo.

I really don't think we should try to predict Echoes. Echoes are usually made at the last minute, reusing assets from other fighters to flesh out the roster. There isn't a spot in the project plan dedicated to Echo Fighters/clones, so it's ludicrous to try and predict who will be an Echo and who will not.

 

[osby]

That's fair. If they inject some of that ridiculousness into the character (don't forget the bear) it could be a fun time.



I'm not going to call her names, but the whole "British dominatrix who gyrates around and loses more clothes the more she fights" thing seems like the work of a horny 14-year old, not a professional game studio. It comes across as the lamest of attempts to appeal to a certain demographic.

Now, I'll freely admit I haven't played the games, so perhaps in the games she receives the amount of story and depth to make the character really work, but in the context of Smash, without that extra depth, she just comes off as super cringe-y, especially when standing next to the likes of Mario and Pikachu.

Late reply. Bayonetta works in Smash like how she works in her own games: So ridiculously over the top in every possible way that most of her character traits make her funny but she's still cool.
I don't think she's design just exists to be sexual fanservice, tbh. Most of her fans that I've seen are adult women and men who loves how camp she is.
But if you don't like her, well, more power to you.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Promotion wasn’t the only reason they were included either since Sakurai has gone on record saying that he was debating on whether to add them or not and one of the reasons he ultimately decided on doing so was because he found them unique.

Sure Corrin's uniqueness potential (and his team convincing him) pushed Sakurai over his reservations about the overrepresentation issue, but Corrin's roster spot wouldn't have existed in the first place if it wasn't for for the promotion aspect.

 

[KMDP]

I really don't think we should try to predict Echoes. Echoes are usually made at the last minute, reusing assets from other fighters to flesh out the roster. There isn't a spot in the project plan dedicated to Echo Fighters/clones, so it's ludicrous to try and predict who will be an Echo and who will not.

Just had a thought...

At 70+ characters, do we even need to flesh out the roster (with last minute clones)?

With this in mind, Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and maybe someone like Chrom and/or Ken might be all we're getting with Echoes.

 

[dezeray112]

Okay.

Let's do third parties this time.


Just so everyone remembers, here are the five questions.


1. How excited are you for this potential character, identity wise? Meaning who the character is and what they represent.
2. How excited are you for this potential character's potential moveset?
3. How excited are you for a potential stage from this series?
4. How excited are you for potential items and assist trophies from this series?
5. How excited are you for potential music from this series?

I'll even give you lots of franchises to do.

Today's franchises will be...

Castlevania
Silent Hill
Resident Evil
Tekken
Tale of
Soul Calibur
Tomb Raider
Dragon Quest
Rayman
Crash Bandicoot

A lot of favourites from the list, but I will pick on two for the time being:

Tekken

1. How excited are you for this potential character, identity wise?
As a longtime fan of the Tekken series, I'm rooting for either Heihachi Mishima (who was considered for Smash Wii-U/3DS) or Jin Kazama.

2. How excited are you for this potential character's potential moveset?
Hmm.....I'd probably expect some of the iconic move set from the Tekken series to be maintained for Smash. As for their Final Smashes, I could see them utilising their Rage Arts moves from Tekken 7.

3. How excited are you for a potential stage from this series?
Well, I'm not 100% certain what sort of stage I would expect from the series. But if there is a stage which I would love to see in Smash Ultimate, it would be something based upon the Mishima Zaibatsu.

4. How excited are you for potential items and assist trophies from this series?
Assist trophies wise, my choices would be between Ling Xiaoyu, Alisa Bosconovitch and Kuma being candidates.

5. How excited are you for potential music from this series?
I would opt for the Moonlit Wilderness stage music from Tekken 5.

Soul Calibur

1. How excited are you for this potential character, identity wise?
I've been a fan of the SoulCalibur series since the 2nd game when I played the GameCube version. Characters wise, I would opt between Nightmare, Sophitia or Heishiro Mitsurugi.

2. How excited are you for this potential character's potential moveset?
Again like the Tekken characters, I do anticipate that they will retain their move sets from their game. For Final Smash they utilise their Critical Edges from SoulCalibur VI.

3. How excited are you for a potential stage from this series?
Hmm.....its very hard to say what potential stage could come from the SoulCalibur series, but it will be interesting to see which one they will pick.

4. How excited are you for potential items and assist trophies from this series?
My choices would be Taki and Astaroth as possible assist trophies.

5. How excited are you for potential music from this series?
I would like the Brave Sword, Braver Soul theme from SoulCalibur II.

 

[Will]

That'd hold water if those sales happened before his inclusion in Smash, Hey-o!

Got 'em. Though, the same would apply to Roy and FE6 too wouldn't it?

Spoiler

and maybe someone like Chrom and/or Ken might be all we're getting with Echoes.

That's very specific.
Perhaps too specific.
yeah its too specific

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I feel like an echo that surprises us would actually be unwanted, because if it's a surprising pick, 99.99% of people would rather that "Surprise!" be substantial and... y'know, worthwhile.

I'll agree that most will probably be dissapointed, but I was happy with the Lucina surprise in Smash 4. There are definitely characters that I think have little chance that if they got in as echoes I'd be glad just to have them in.

Echoes/Clones don't upset me if they make sense (Ganondorf) and as long as it isn't just the same character multiple times (3 many links & Dr. Mario).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Remember, Corrin wasn’t added because he was important, or popular, or even because he was stand out unique, he was just added to promote Fire Emblem Fates. I don’t mean to compare but at least with Roy he would become important since his inclusion along with Marth’s Would gauge global interest for the Fire Emblem series, whereas Corrin still isn’t a very important character to the FE series. I’m not still hung up with his inclusion, I just don’t find him the best pick for a Fire Emblem character.

Female Corrin is importsnt enough to be one of the main characters in FE Warriors and one of the best dragon fighters in Heroes...also has a good amount of popularity and is the Etika Waifu (biggest praise and honor of all)

After all. All characters like Dark Pit and Dasiy could be semi clones with plenty of unique abilities to pull from, but they lack iconic signature moves and therefor are echos.

Daisy sure, but that Edgy Pittoo fights exactly like Pit, so making him not be an echo would be an oof by now

How do you gauge importance? Especially for a series that is constantly shuffling the main cast. Marth and Roy, to give an example, either show up as cameos via amiibo, or in spin-offs (Fire Emblem Heroes).

Is it about game sales? If so, Fates is one of, if not the best selling Fire Emblem game as of this moment.

Is it about popularity? Because Corrin is definitely a popular character. Corrin has a rather loud hatebase, which is clearly a minority since they’ve placed in the top 10 of every official poll.

Promotion wasn’t the only reason they were included either since Sakurai has gone on record saying that he was debating on whether to add them or not and one of the reasons he ultimately decided on doing so was because he found them unique.

Tbf with Marth, he is the first lord and has 2 main games under his belt (might also be the face of the franchise if Anna or Lucina/Chrom doesn’t attempt to take his place), then there comes the spinoffs and cameos (other than Ike, nobody else got what Marth got...unless Anna counts)

Late reply. Bayonetta works in Smash like how she works in her own games: So ridiculously over the top in every possible way that most of her character traits make her funny but she's still cool.
I don't think she's design just exists to be sexual fanservice, tbh. Most of her fans that I've seen are adult women and men who loves how camp she is.
But if you don't like her, well, more power to you.

I love how much personality and badassery she has within her witchy self (the sexiness is a massive bonus, but comes after everything else about her character...and games)

But if only she’d stop trying to kill Pit

Sure Corrin's uniqueness potential (and his team convincing him) pushed Sakurai over his reservations about the overrepresentation issue, but Corrin's roster spot wouldn't have existed in the first place if it wasn't for for the promotion aspect.

Or they’d just debut in Smash Ultimate...probably

 

[MBRedboy31]

Just had a thought...

At 70+ characters, do we even need to flesh out the roster?

With this in mind, Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and maybe someone like Chrom and/or Ken might be all we're getting with Echoes.

If the common assumption that the next Smash game will be a reboot and have far fewer characters in general is true, this is their last chance to include as many characters as they can.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I really don't think we should try to predict Echoes. Echoes are usually made at the last minute, reusing assets from other fighters to flesh out the roster. There isn't a spot in the project plan dedicated to Echo Fighters/clones, so it's ludicrous to try and predict who will be an Echo and who will not.

I wasn't predicting anything. All I was saying was that I don't think Dixie, Dark Samus, and Shadow should be Echoes if they get into the game. It was just my opinion, not a prediction.

 

[DLEAF]

When are Nintendo Directs usually announced in relation to when they air?

Is the July 22nd rumor already debunked?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If she got in, do you think Sakurai would also include the Lara Croft from the older games as a callback too, as an alt costume? Regardless if he did or didn't include that, Lara Croft would be a cool newcomer for Smash, I just want to know what you think?

Honestly, it all depends if IS and Nintendo feel like FE Heroes, and Three Houses need more attention and representation. They could very well agree with Sakurai and not add any more FE characters, or they could feel like they should take their successful mobile game/new console game, and give an extra push to the players, to gain more money to which Sakurai could also agree with. It could go either way at this point, but I believe the latter is more likely. I also don't believe in limiting how many characters in a franchise can rep in Smash, as long as they're fun and unique characters, but the most likely FE newcomers we would get would be:

Fjorm - Unique ice lancer protagonist from FE Heroes book two.
Micaiah - Light Mage protagonist
Anna - Basically FE mascot and a crowd favorite
Celica - Recently popular (May or may not be wrong) Mage protagonist
Chrom - Another popular Awakening character
Edelgard - New protagonist with a good chance for DLC
Lyn - Cause IS and Sakurai would realize the mistake of shafting their most popular FE character to the sidelines as an AT.

If Lara got in they kinda have to base her around her classic appearance, that's the iconic one that so many people recognize.

 

[Idon]

Got 'em. Though, the same would apply to Roy and FE6 too wouldn't it?

Spoiler

That's very specific.
Perhaps too specific.
yeah its too specific

YES. IT WOULD.
(IT'S ALMOST LIKE I HATE ROY'S INCLUSION IN SMASH AS BEING A LITERAL ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD AND HIS CONTINUED POPULARITY PURELY BECAUSE OF THE ROY'S OUR BOY MEME AND... OR SOMETHING.)

I'll agree that most will probably be dissapointed, but I was happy with the Lucina surprise in Smash 4. There are definitely characters that I think have little chance that if they got in as echoes I'd be glad just to have them in.

Echoes/Clones don't upset me if they make sense (Ganondorf) and as long as it isn't just the same character multiple times (3 many links & Dr. Mario).

I'd just prefer a clone that was "oh he's a clone, I guess that makes sense." as opposed to "oh wow, I never would've expected this character! Oh wait, he's a clone."

Also,
>Ganondorf
>Makes sense

 

[Dragoncharystary]

When are Nintendo Directs usually announced in relation to when they air?

Is the July 22nd rumor already debunked?

Generally a day or two before they air so we can't quite rule it out yet. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[?????????????]

When are Nintendo Directs usually announced in relation to when they air?

Is the July 22nd rumor already debunked?

It hasn't been "debunked," but it HAS been proven people already knew about the Pokemon Funko Pops before the rumor came out, which means the MK8 rumors ACTUALLY COULD just be a lucky guess.

So...it doesn't have as much interest to me as it used to. It's LOOKING more fake to me, but we'll see.

 

[Will]

YES. IT WOULD.
(IT'S ALMOST LIKE I HATE ROY'S INCLUSION IN SMASH AS BEING A LITERAL ADVERTISEMENT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD AND HIS CONTINUED POPULARITY PURELY BECAUSE OF THE ROY'S OUR BOY MEME AND... OR SOMETHING.)

Give the man credit. He's a near useless lil ***** in his own game, but in Smash he's a total chad. Also fire or something and he makes cool noises that grab the edgy kids.

>Ganondorf
>Makes sense

It made sense at the time he was made into a clone.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

It hasn't been "debunked," but it HAS been proven people already knew about the Pokemon Funko Pops before the rumor came out, which means the MK8 rumors ACTUALLY COULD just be a lucky guess.

So...it doesn't have as much interest to me as it used to. It's LOOKING more fake to me, but we'll see.

Well the leak also came out before the Misty trailer and it said specifically that Lt. Surges gym would be shown in this direct, not Misty who we hadn't seen at that point. So there is that little thing going for it to.

 

[DLEAF]

Give the man credit. He's a near useless lil ***** in his own game, but in Smash he's a total chad. Also fire or something and he makes cool noises that grab the edgy kids.

The Virgin Roy vs the Chad Roy

 

[RandomAce]

Just had a thought...

At 70+ characters, do we even need to flesh out the roster (with last minute clones)?

With this in mind, Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy and maybe someone like Chrom and/or Ken might be all we're getting with Echoes.

Basically we don’t need more characters at this point, especially not Echo fighters.

I think people would be fine if we get like 8-10 more unique characters since a lot of veterans returned and some fan favorites entered the ring this time, and not have any echoes to pander it out, the roster is too big at this point.

That’s why I really don’t think we might get an echo fighter.

 

[Deleted member]

I consider as the Ultimate FE newcomer that came early, thus no more FE non-Echo newcomer.

 

[Idon]

If I hear one more

HEEE-YUT! or SOOOOOR-YA!

I am seriously going to go out of my way to mod out Roy's sounds.

 

[blackghost]

That's fair. If they inject some of that ridiculousness into the character (don't forget the bear) it could be a fun time.



I'm not going to call her names, but the whole "British dominatrix who gyrates around and loses more clothes the more she fights" thing seems like the work of a horny 14-year old, not a professional game studio. It comes across as the lamest of attempts to appeal to a certain demographic.

Now, I'll freely admit I haven't played the games, so perhaps in the games she receives the amount of story and depth to make the character really work, but in the context of Smash, without that extra depth, she just comes off as super cringe-y, especially when standing next to the likes of Mario and Pikachu.

glad you admitted you havent played the games. it just proves my point tho. you dont get a full feeling of ANY character in smash. every character feels relatively surface level in comparison to their games. smash is an incredible game but it cannot deliver everything about these characters. if that were the case shulk would be a meme for his taunt and ganon would be lame as heck. the games do serve as an introduction to these characters see xenoblade, FE, bayonetta, game and watch, and more.

bayonetta was designed by a woman and brought to life by a master of action games. she is supposed to be a fantasy like most videogame characters but within her own lore you have a character that is a time paradox, a tragedy, and much more. she saw her mother die twice, her father suffered an awful fate.
the idea that she saw herself in the future and aspired to become that strong is really interesting.
as fo rthe clothes thing that is canonically part of her powers. but it is barely part of who she is as a character. it would be like basing pikachu off only how it performs in battle.(which would be awful for its sake).

reducing all that to one thing is a disservice to the character and to yourself because you missed so much. Its been funny watching some youtubers that only knew bayonetta from smash and got wrecked by her and after they tried her games like her a lot. alpharad and omni both come to mind. its truly not a coincidence that every elite bayo player beat her games BEFORE she was released. there's a lot to her just like everyone else on the roster.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Also,
>Ganondorf
>Makes sense
View attachment 153667

Oh nonononono I meant he was an example of a clone I hated because he didn't make sense. Trust me I am like one of the top 5 "Falcondorf doesn't make any sense" supporters on this site. I knew I worded that poorly :/ whoops

It made sense at the time he was made into a clone.

Oh no what have I accidently started!!!.....must resist , but can't...if anything he makes more sense a clone now because like many characters who get into smash, his future designs we're more inspired by his characterization in smash. Basically up into Melee he was a pig/wizard. Then after that he was made to be a more heavy brutal fighter, inspired by his fighting style in smash.

Windwaker is the real outlier but I think that was in development around the same time melee was so that's probably why it wasn't influenced much. Also the style difference.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Dark samus would be semi clone/luigified not echo

Why does nearly everyone keep messing this up the only thing dark samus has the same is missles

 

[Deleted member]

I think more Echoes will definitely be a given for base game and DLC. They're easier to make compared to regular fighters and most people seem to be happy their favorites got in Smash period, regardless of if they're a clone or not.

Simply put, I think there will be at least one or two more. I personally don't think they made a whole new term just to announce Daisy, Dark Pit and Lucina.

*Crosses fingers for Octoling Echo...* Hey, a guy can dream, right?