Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Unless Diddy's ledge attack gets changed so that he doesn't use his tail, I really doubt Dixie is even feasible as am Echo Fighter

So if Diddy uses his tail Dixie can not?
Come on, Diddy only uses his tail for his jab I think. Plus Dixie is fine with Diddy Kong using his tail, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost identical yet different moves. Dixie can be a clone of Diddy just fine.

 

[Lisbon Mapping]

So if Diddy uses his tail Dixie can not?
Come on, Diddy only uses his tail for his jab I think. Plus Dixie is fine with Diddy Kong using his tail, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost identical yet different moves. Dixie can be a clone of Diddy just fine.

But Dixie doesn't have a tail

 

[Deleted member]

So if Diddy uses his tail Dixie can not?
Come on, Diddy only uses his tail for his jab I think. Plus Dixie is fine with Diddy Kong using his tail, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost identical yet different moves. Dixie can be a clone of Diddy just fine.

Dixie Kong doesn't have a tail.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't think Chrom will get in because "too many sword wielders".

If he's an echo then the "he's just a generic sword wielder" argument doesn't really matter

 

[Deleted member]

But Dixie doesn't have a tail

Dixie Kong doesn't have a tail.

Oh, well I forgot.

Thing thing is that I think Sakurai chose Robin over Chrom was because Robin was more unique than Chrom.
I am not saying he is very likely to be an echo-fighter, but his chances are a little more up in the air.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So if Diddy uses his tail Dixie can not?
Come on, Diddy only uses his tail for his jab I think. Plus Dixie is fine with Diddy Kong using his tail, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have almost identical yet different moves. Dixie can be a clone of Diddy just fine.

Regular clones =/= echo fighters.

Echo fighters not only have the exact same attributes as their original counterpart, but all of their moves (with the exception of FS as shown by ) are identical regardless of different properties. Even in Melee, Ganondorf and Captain falcon had a few different moves from each other and they had different general attributes so they're not comparable.

 

[osby]

Oh, well I forgot.

Thing thing is that I think Sakurai chose Robin over Chrom was because Robin was more unique than Chrom.
I am not saying he is very likely to be an echo-fighter, but his chances are a little more up in the air.

I can think of a few characters I'd like to join the fray as echoes but it seems like they'll more of bonuses. Which I'm fine with. Three we got weren't really essential but I'm still glad we got them.

 

[Murlough]

I thought we already went over the fact that Diddy doesn't use his tail in his jab anymore?

Am I misremembering oooooor?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I thought we already went over the fact that Diddy doesn't use his tail in his jab anymore?

Am I misremembering oooooor?

We haven't see Diddy's ledge attack and it may be that he's still using his tail for that move.

 

[92MilesPrower]

*AUX CALL PUSH SELECT*

Snake: King Dedede is kind of interesting to me... He looks like a penguin, but he can fly by floating in the air, somehow. Thing is, is he even a penguin?

Otacon: I still don't understand how he's able to float with all of that weight... His body is mostly fat rather than anything else since he loves to eat food he steals from the people of Dreamland, the same place he's supposed to be the ruler of.

Snake: I'm surprised that nobody's tried to overthrow him, then. Is everyone way too lazy to even deal with him?

Otacon: Aside from Kirby and Meta Knight, it seems so. It's a cycle of sorts, where King Dedede steals food, and then Kirby defeats him, only for it to happen again after a while. I guess everyone's too lazy to even try to do anything else to protect their food, and just rely on Kirby.

Snake: But Dedede never seems to give up. Seems persistent and annoying to me. If I lived in Dreamland, I'd probably plant mines all around my house after the first time he stole my food. That'd definitely teach him a lesson...

 

[BlueMagician]

I'm guessing Sakurai would be against Dixie being an echo of Diddy because the Jetpack would clip through her hair. There are other, better reasons to worry about, of course, but I think he'd worry about that one from a creator standpoint.

It doesn't mean she can't be a semi-clone or something,

 

[Fenriraga]

I definitely see Dixie being more of a Lucas/Wolf than I do an Echo.

Her bubblegum gun instead of Diddy's Peanut Popgun, her hair propeller instead of Diddy's rocket barrels, a few different normals...

I don't really see her being a 100% all original character though. But that's just me, I fully acknowledge I can be wrong.

 

[Murlough]

I don't think she's gonna be in at all. I don't remember seeing nearly this much support around the time of the ballot. K. Rool on the other hand got plenty.

She's also kinda boring honestly, as someone who doesn't play DK. She literally looks like Diddy - a tail + Ponytail. Just eh.

 

[RileyXY1]

Dixie also uses her hair which opens up to a ton of moveset potential. She also doesn't use the jetpack or peanut popguns either.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

but ryu literally invented the archetype. he's the original, especially from a games perspective. ryu is going to be ryu. dont blame the character for being generic when the genre spawned as an echo to him. very few of the street fighter characters would pop off a smash roster for their personality to begin with. Most of the ones that have personality are newer characters and the fanbase wouldnt react to them getting in very well at all.

when we get characters are reserved people call it bland. when we get characters that are full of personality people lash out at the personality. see my profile pic for an obvious example.

Like I said, I can totally respect his place in history. If I remember the original question, it was about adding more fighting game characters (Heihachi), and my vote is that we already have Ryu for our super serious martial artist, and I'd rather something more interesting get added instead. Not saying he couldn't be interesting or that he'd be a carbon copy of Ryu or anything, just saying where my vote lies.

As for Bayonetta, it's the contents of her "personality" that people take issue with, not the fact that she has one.

 

[Opossum]

I mean I'm all for a unique Dixie, but people using the Peanut Popgun as a reason seem to forget Dixie has a Gumball Gun.

 

[osby]

Like I said, I can totally respect his place in history. If I remember the original question, it was about adding more fighting game characters (Heihachi), and my vote is that we already have Ryu for our super serious martial artist, and I'd rather something more interesting get added instead. Not saying he couldn't be interesting or that he'd be a carbon copy of Ryu or anything, just saying where my vote lies.

As for Bayonetta, it's the contents of her "personality" that people take issue with, not the fact that she has one.

I can't really see Heihachi as a all-serious guy tbh. We are talking about a guy who ties people to launching rockets while laughing, if I recall correctly.

 

[Phaazoid]

I mean I'm all for a unique Dixie, but people using the Peanut Popgun as a reason seem to forget Dixie has a Gumball Gun.

They also seem to forget that Sakurai will give characters items/moves they don't get in their games.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't think she's gonna be in at all. I don't remember seeing nearly this much support around the time of the ballot. K. Rool on the other hand got plenty.

She's also kinda boring honestly, as someone who doesn't play DK. She literally looks like Diddy - a tail + Ponytail. Just eh.

Maybe not as much as others, but she still got a notable amount of support during the ballot from what I remember. Besides, you have to keep in mind that she has a leg up over K. Rool in terms of relevancy. Popularity by itself doesn't dictate how likely a character is.

And as for thinking she'd be boring, you'd have to actually play some of her games to see what she could do. After playing nearly all of the DK games, I almost feel like saying Dixie has more material to pull from than K. Rool.

 

[blackghost]

As for Bayonetta, it's the contents of her "personality" that people take issue with, not the fact that she has one.

this is what i've heard but i've never seen much valid criticism. most of it is people screaming "she's a hoe." which is just proof you have no clue what they are talking about. she is a virgin as far as i know. ( she sleeps in the same bed as jeane but its unknown if its anything else).
"she's cocky."- have you seen sonic? when a character is powerful and they know it people generally enjoy it when its done in a fun way. see dante's fame.
"she's sexualized"- and palutena and samus aren't?!?

 

[?????????????]

this is what i've heard but i've never seen much valid criticism. most of it is people screaming "she's a hoe." which is just proof you have no clue what they are talking about.

Exactly. I've seen people argue against Bayonetta's character, and whenever I do, the first thing that always comes to mind is "This person has no clue what they're talking about."

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Just a thought on the whole Dixie echo thing. People are trying to say it wouldn't work because of the tail, but why are we ignoring the bigger issue of the up b? Dixie Kong using the rocket barrel would be absurd. That would be like falcondorf level of bad representation and I'm not even a supporter.

The tail is what would mechanically prevent Dixie from being an echo, as non-representative as it is Dixie is fully mechanically able to use the Peanut Popgun and Rocket Barrels.

I have absolutely no clue why people are so fixated on Dixie Kong being an echo fighter when semi-clones / traditional clones still exist.
She'd be a lot better as a Diddy-like character with a few unique ponytail moves here and there than just Diddy with a ponytail slapped on.

I can see why people would have doubts that a traditional clone or even a semi-clone will be done again. Besides the perception of there being "limited" newcomers, we haven't gotten a traditional newcomer clone since Melee after the backlash the Melee clones got (instead only getting the alt-costume clones/"Echoes" that take an even smaller fraction of developmental effort), and then with Smash 4 Sakurai went out of his way to make each of the newcomers as unique as possible and avoided having conventionally-designed characters (the Miis had some chimaera cloning going on but they also had a bunch of other gimmicks thrown on top like there being three of them and their customs all being completely different moves). There's no saying that Sakurai will make such as an effort again to prioritize everyone being super unique (we only got two newcomers so far to judge, where Inklings continue the trend that Smash 4 had and Ridley is fully unique but seems more conventionally-designed), but nonetheless people's perception will be based on precedence until it's proven otherwise.

Ideally Dixie would be a semi-clone, and while not the full effort of a unique newcomer, it's still a significant amount of development time that Sakurai could have deemed not worth it.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't think she's gonna be in at all. I don't remember seeing nearly this much support around the time of the ballot. K. Rool on the other hand got plenty.

She's also kinda boring honestly, as someone who doesn't play DK. She literally looks like Diddy - a tail + Ponytail. Just eh.

Wasn't the ballot like right after the release of Tropical Freeze. I'm sure she was on lots of people's minds and shes always been a Nintendo all star.

Of course her popularity in Smash fandoms and speculation is not as high as King K. Rool but I think it would be incorrect to say she wasn't in most top 10 popular charactera for Smash.

Related question, I'm not a big Donkey Kong fam, but how did King K. Rool's fan demand surpass Dixie and pretty much all other Nintendo characters except arguably Ridley (at least in the west)? Seems strange he would be higher up than a major protagonist.

 

[osby]

Exactly. I've seen people argue against Bayonetta's character, and whenever I do, the first thing that always comes to mind is "This person has no clue what they're talking about."

I know this is true for Bayonetta but it's funny how much it applies to other characters, too.

 

[KMDP]

Didn't even read all that, but yeah. That's enough to convince me it's not a rip-off.
Sorry i said that, that's just legit what i thought xD

Hey, it's no big deal. I fully expected people not to want to read that thing.
---
Re: The Clone Zone
This is how I see the clone thing, I meant to write this a while ago, but never got around to it.

1. Characters with Clones & Wholly Original Characters (i.e. Not Clones)
   These characters speak for themselves.
2. Luigi-Style Clone (Semi-Clone)
   These characters share moves with the character they are cloning, but also have major differences.
3. Wolf-Style Clone (Semi-Clone)
   These characters technically have the same moves as the character they are cloning, but the execution is different.
4. Melee-Style Clone
   These characters have, generally the same moves as the character they are cloning, but have different stats (weight, run speed, etc).
5. Echo Fighter
   These characters have the same moves and stats, but the attributes of their moves can be different. Otherwise they are just "Extended Alt Costumes".

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Okay.

Let's do third parties this time.


Just so everyone remembers, here are the five questions.


1. How excited are you for this potential character, identity wise? Meaning who the character is and what they represent.
2. How excited are you for this potential character's potential moveset?
3. How excited are you for a potential stage from this series?
4. How excited are you for potential items and assist trophies from this series?
5. How excited are you for potential music from this series?

I'll even give you lots of franchises to do.

Today's franchises will be...

Castlevania
Silent Hill
Resident Evil
Tekken
Tale of
Soul Calibur
Tomb Raider
Dragon Quest
Rayman
Crash Bandicoot

Rayman

1.) Rayman is my current most wanted character for Smash Bros. His series of games have such a wonderful mix of wacky and whimsy. He's the mascot of one of the biggest thrid party companies in the industry, and his games have reached positive to critical accalim. Rayman could be a great representative for western thrid party characters. He may not have the same status as Sonic or Pac-Man, but he's still an icon.
2.) Rayman's lack of limbs could provide a very interesting moveset. He could have disjointed hitboxes, and provide new ways to fight an opponenet. He's one of those characters that has so much to pull from, that if Sakurai were to get his hands on the character, he could provide a moveset none of us would expect.
3.) There's a lot to pull from in terms of stages, my number wish would be Band Land from the very first game. It's a perfect representation of the series' whimiscal wackiness. The Precipice from Rayman 2 would also make a great stage, as that is an iconic moment from that particular game. Of course, there's also a lot you can choose from his most recent games, one great example would be the Land of the Livid Dead.
4.) We don't really any third party items aside from the Namco ones, so I'll skip over that. In terms of Assist Trophies though, Murfy could slap opponents and carry them around the stage, giving the other opponents an oppurtunity to attack them. Of course, this could also be a perfect way to represent the Rabbids.
5.) We have a ton of great tracks from the recent Rayman games (Chasing a Dream, Tricky Treasure, Moving Ground etc.), but there's also a ton of tracks from the older games that would be a crime to omit. Hearing a full orchestral remake of The Precipice from Rayman 2 would be an absolute dream.

Crash Bandicoot

1.) Crash Bandicoot would be a pretty cool addition, there's no doubt he's an icon and has the credentials. He would certainly be an exciting addition, however there's one (admittedly petty) reason why I wouldn't want to see him. As a big fan of PlayStation All-Stars, Crash in Smash would basically kill any chance of a sequel to PSASBR. It would be dissapointing, but I wouldn't throw much of a fuss about it.
2.) Crash is already a joy to control in his games, so I can see that adapting well into Smash. His spin attacks could give a decent amount of knockback, like how enemies in Crash just zip out of existense when he spins into them. They could also adapt some of his clumsiness into his moveset.
3.) None of the locations from the Crash series really stick out to me aside from the future stages in Crash 3. So maybe that provide an interesting stage.
4.) Don't except any items, but I can see Dingodile, Tiny Tiger, and even Dr. Cortex make for really fun Assist Trophies.
5.) Crash has some really good music, so I'm more than confident that we would see a great selection if he were included in Smash. Crash 3 especially has some great tracks.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I can't really see Heihachi as a all-serious guy tbh. We are talking about a guy who ties people to launching rockets while laughing, if I recall correctly.

That's fair. If they inject some of that ridiculousness into the character (don't forget the bear) it could be a fun time.

this is what i've heard but i've never seen much valid criticism. most of it is people screaming "she's a hoe." which is just proof you have no clue what they are talking about.

Exactly. I've seen people argue against Bayonetta's character, and whenever I do, the first thing that always comes to mind is "This person has no clue what they're talking about."

I'm not going to call her names, but the whole "British dominatrix who gyrates around and loses more clothes the more she fights" thing seems like the work of a horny 14-year old, not a professional game studio. It comes across as the lamest of attempts to appeal to a certain demographic.

Now, I'll freely admit I haven't played the games, so perhaps in the games she receives the amount of story and depth to make the character really work, but in the context of Smash, without that extra depth, she just comes off as super cringe-y, especially when standing next to the likes of Mario and Pikachu.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Related question, I'm not a big Donkey Kong fam, but how did King K. Rool's fan demand surpass Dixie and pretty much all other Nintendo characters except arguably Ridley (at least in the west)? Seems strange he would be higher up than a major protagonist.

• Main villain of some of the biggest and popular SNES games and the most recurring main villain. Generally seen as the definitive villain
• Thematically unlike anything else in the roster
• Has several boss fights to use for an interesting and creative moveset
• People want more villains
• People want more Donkey Kong love
• Another super-heavyweight powerhouse character since Smash 4 had none as newcomers
• People want the Kremlings to come back
• Can potentially bring in some sweet alternate costumes

Those are some of the major reasons why people want K. Rool in Smash

 

[TMNTSSB4]

"Oops, my bad! It's not actually Simon Belmont. It's Simon, the four-colored memory game from Hasbro!"

The amount of salt that reveal will contain will be even bigger than the salt from Waluigi fans the past 3 games and Ridley fans in Smash 4

this is what i've heard but i've never seen much valid criticism. most of it is people screaming "she's a hoe." which is just proof you have no clue what they are talking about. she is a virgin as far as i know. ( she sleeps in the same bed as jeane but its unknown if its anything else).
"she's cocky."- have you seen sonic? when a character is powerful and they know it people generally enjoy it when its done in a fun way. see dante's fame.
"she's sexualized"- and palutena and samus aren't?!?

people calling Bayonetta a hoe...

Spoiler

 

[RandomAce]

Wasn't the ballot like right after the release of Tropical Freeze. I'm sure she was on lots of people's minds and shes always been a Nintendo all star.

Of course her popularity in Smash fandoms and speculation is not as high as King K. Rool but I think it would be incorrect to say she wasn't in most top 10 popular charactera for Smash.

Related question, I'm not a big Donkey Kong fam, but how did King K. Rool's fan demand surpass Dixie and pretty much all other Nintendo characters except arguably Ridley (at least in the west)? Seems strange he would be higher up than a major protagonist.

By A LOT.
King K. Rool has been consistently getting a lot of support and topping almost every poll during the ballot.

Dixie Kong, not so much. To be honest Dixie I feel can easily be a semi clone, since she has some moves where can she use her hair and some moves she can borrow from Diddy. Really I haven’t seen a lot of things Dixie does to be fully unique, unless you think hair attacks are.

To be honest, I hate the Echo term, since now it seems every clone is going to be a copy-paste of another fighter instead of having some differences like in a Melee or Brawl.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Right now, I am starting to think that it is more likely that Dixie will be a semi-clone, but whether Sakurai wants to make clone newcomers beyond his branded Echo Fighters is a possibility that could go either way. He might bring back the Dixie Kong moveset concept he likely made in Brawl's project plan (If datamining of Brawl characters are any indication), or he could be just completely content with just Echo Fighters and not plan Dixie from the get-go.

 

[KMDP]

By A LOT.
King K. Rool has been consistently getting a lot of support and topping almost every poll during the ballot.

Dixie Kong, not so much. To be honest Dixie I feel can easily be a semi clone, since she has some moves where can she use her hair and some moves she can borrow from Diddy. Really I haven’t seen a lot of things Dixie does to be fully unique, unless you think hair attacks are.

To be honest, I hate the Echo term, since now it seems every clone is going to be a copy-paste of another fighter instead of having some differences like in a Melee or Brawl.

Dixie really should be Diddy's "Luigi", as my post above outlined; if anything, she should share traits with Donkey Kong too.

Neutral B: Bubblegum Gun
Side B: Monkey Flip (same as Diddy's Side B)
Up B: Hair Tornado (operates like DK's Up B)
Down: Hair Slap (operates like DK's Down B)

 

[P.Kat]

Lara Croft

If she got in, do you think Sakurai would also include the Lara Croft from the older games as a callback too, as an alt costume? Regardless if he did or didn't include that, Lara Croft would be a cool newcomer for Smash, I just want to know what you think?

There was a very big period of time where I saw Anna as a realistic choice for the next Fire Emblem character, and while I do see her as at least a contender I don’t think she’s next in line, I feel currently if we were to get another FE character it would be Celica. But in all honesty, because the massive amounts of backlash Corrin recieved when he was revealed I don’t think we’ll get another FE character for a while, which is unfortunate, but it’s just how things are. (Although maybe Chrom as an Echo since he’d be so easy to make)

Honestly, it all depends if IS and Nintendo feel like FE Heroes, and Three Houses need more attention and representation. They could very well agree with Sakurai and not add any more FE characters, or they could feel like they should take their successful mobile game/new console game, and give an extra push to the players, to gain more money to which Sakurai could also agree with. It could go either way at this point, but I believe the latter is more likely. I also don't believe in limiting how many characters in a franchise can rep in Smash, as long as they're fun and unique characters, but the most likely FE newcomers we would get would be:

Fjorm - Unique ice lancer protagonist from FE Heroes book two.
Micaiah - Light Mage protagonist
Anna - Basically FE mascot and a crowd favorite
Celica - Recently popular (May or may not be wrong) Mage protagonist
Chrom - Another popular Awakening character
Edelgard - New protagonist with a good chance for DLC
Lyn - Cause IS and Sakurai would realize the mistake of shafting their most popular FE character to the sidelines as an AT.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Right now, I am starting to think that it is more likely that Dixie will be a semi-clone, but whether Sakurai wants to make clone newcomers beyond his branded Echo Fighters is a possibility that could go either way. He might bring back the Dixie Kong moveset concept he likely made in Brawl's project plan (If datamining of Brawl characters are any indication), or he could be just completely content with just Echo Fighters and not plan Dixie from the get-go.

I agree. Semi-Clone seems more likely

 

[IsmaR]

Every single echo fighter "should" be at least somewhat unique/Luigified/a semiclone rather than a minor tweak of move physics/knockback/etc.

The question being "What matters more, the time they could save/put into other aspects of the game, or not 'misrepresenting' a character by making them a carbon copy?" (the latter argument barely even making sense now given the context + they changed Pit's Final Smash this game anyway)

I'm of the opinion that most would love seeing their character represented in any fashion than not at all, even if it's not ideal. The line to draw would then be whether fans can accept it even if it didn't really do said counterpart character "justice." I could easily see all of the popular "if they absolutely had to be, they could be" echo fighter choices around here (Dixie/Impa/Chrom/Shadow/Ken, and even Dark Samus) being made unique with only somewhat similar properties vs literally being alt costumes with 1 or 2 alternative values, but I could just as easily forgive if they made them carbon copies in favor of not representing them at all.

Really the only thing that is lost is the opportunity for the characters getting into the game as base roster and being slightly less unique than if they were DLC/added in a future title and given more time. Wouldn't doubt that if all of the old "clone" characters were only just now added, they'd be as unique/different as they are now ( especially, as they could have easily gone the route of Alph if they didn't already garner a fanbase of their Melee playstyles, meanwhile wouldn't have the Final Smash issue now that Sacred Treasures has been changed, although something something Sakurai bias finds a way).

 

[AlphaSSB]

With Dixie Kong, I see her landing someplace between a semi-clone like Luigi, or a non-clone 'derivative' like Wolf.

I hear that Diddy Kong has apparently lost his tail-based attacks. If true, I can see Dixie Kong picking some of those up, while some other moves would be attacks with her ponytail. For her specials, I could see all of Diddy Kong's working with Dixie Kong with the exception of his Up Special. That's end up being replaced with Dixie Kong's ponytail helicopter. As Opossum pointed out, she could even use a pop-gun that shot gumballs rather than peanuts.

 

[Bowserlick]

A Dixie Echo could replace the peanuts with bubblegum balls and be called a done deal. But this seems very unlikely.

Her hair has to be used. If you give her more range than Diddy, than she probably has to be slower.

An Echo with a slow descent spin involving hair would be superior to Diddy.

Dixie makes sense as a semi-clone at the least. Either way her model will probably share Diddy's model skeleton.

 

[MSmariosonic]

If she got in, do you think Sakurai would also include the Lara Croft from the older games as a callback too, as an alt costume? Regardless if he did or didn't include that, Lara Croft would be a cool newcomer for Smash, I just want to know what you think?

I think we'd sooner get the old Lara but Sakurai might consider the reboot version since ya know... Snake and Zero Suit assets.

 

[P.Kat]

Honestly. I'm just happy we're getting more characters. even if they are sword wielders.

I feel the same way. Sword or no sword, why should we exclude characters with unique abilities, and mechanics just because they use a sword or not? I know there are two characters I would like to see in Smash that has blades, but they play nothing like each other, or the other Swordfighters in Smash.

 

[NintenZ]

Remember, Corrin wasn’t added because he was important, or popular, or even because he was stand out unique, he was just added to promote Fire Emblem Fates. I don’t mean to compare but at least with Roy he would become important since his inclusion along with Marth’s Would gauge global interest for the Fire Emblem series, whereas Corrin still isn’t a very important character to the FE series. I’m not still hung up with his inclusion, I just don’t find him the best pick for a Fire Emblem character.