Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

Guys, my "Uncle who works at Nintendo"'s friend's cousin's dog's brother gave me this totally real and true leak about all the Newcomers in Smash Ultimate!

Spoiler: All the Newcomers

Baby Mario
Baby Luigi
Baby Peach
Baby Daisy
Baby Rosalina
Baby Bowser
Baby DK
Baby Link
Baby Zelda
Baby Sheik
Baby Ganon
Baby Samus
Kidley
Baby Kirby
Baby Dedede
Baby Fox
Baby Falco
Baby Wolf
Baby Pikachu
Baby Jigglypuff
Baby Mewtwo
Baby Lucario
Baby Greninja
Baby Falcon
Baby Marth
Baby Roy
Tyke
Baby Pit
Baby Villager
Baby Inkling
Baby Sonic
Rock
Baby Cloud
Babyonetta

Pasta Hero Samurai believes it's what the fans want.

Isn’t Kirby already a baby?

I don't think a color palette disconfirms characters. The various Mario and Luigi colors and Pit and Dark Pit referencing each other for example...

Well the “fallen angel” swap is different once more and we now have Super Sayian Pit, so case now closed

 

[Impa4Smash]

The only problem is Black Shadow's physique being very different from Falcon. If they ever did decide to give Ganon a more diversified moveset, Black Shadow could have the remains and take his old place.

True. But isn’t Lucina shorter than Marth? How different can echoes be proportion wise? Probably not much I guess

 

[WolfCypher]

"allowed"? Let's take a look:

Mario - Luigi (N64), Dr. Mario
Link - Young Link, Toon Link
Fox - Falco, Wolf
Pikachu - Pichu
Ness - Lucas
Falcon - Ganondorf

Half of the original 12 have had characters notably based off of them in the past. Sure, the degree of similarity varies and many have iteratively grown farther away from the source but I don't think there's any basis to assume those specific characters would be restricted from Echos.

Smash 64 Jigglypuff was a clone of Smash 64 Kirby

 

[Will]

True. But isn’t Lucina shorter than Marth? How different can echoes be proportion wise? Probably not much I guess

I believe they share the same height and weight. I think they even share the same idles?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Smash 64 Jigglypuff was a clone of Smash 64 Kirby

Not really. If she was, she would've shared the same specials as Kirby

 

[Impa4Smash]

I believe they share the same height and weight. I think they even share the same idles?

You’re probably right on both accounts. For some reasons I was thinking Marth was a bit taller.

 

[Zinith]

Smash 64 Jigglypuff was a clone of Smash 64 Kirby

All of the Smash 64 unlockables were modeled after the starters. Mario->Ness & Luigi, Samus->Captain Falcon and Kirby->Jigglypuff but only Luigi is a straight up clone

 

[WolfCypher]

Not really. If she was, she would've shared the same specials as Kirby

Its the opposite of Wolf. Wolf shares all of Fox's base B moves (that includes FS) with altered properties, but Wolf has his own completely different A moves.

Jigglypuff went the extreme opposite route (in Smash 64, I want to be clear). Completely different B moves, so many shared A moves with Kirby.

I copied this from ssbwiki

"Both share similar forward smashes, down smashes, neutral aerials, forward aerials (Kirby's hits multiple times, but he extends both legs in front of him as does Jigglypuff), down aerials, tilts, back throws, item animations, and ledge animations. Both also have near identical physics, with similar size, shape, weight, and falling speed, and both have five midair jumps (while all ten other characters have one). Their special moves, however, are all completely different. "

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Clone

 

[L9999]

Black Shadow as a Falcon echo is possible.

already exists...

 

[MysticKnives]

It literally copies Blood's jumpsuit and mentions Hell Hawk on the back of it. This isn't a "hey it kinda looks like them!", it's a "wow he stole his clothes".

That’s Falcon’s revenge for getting his DNA stolen in the first place

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Its the opposite of Wolf. Wolf shares all of Fox's base B moves (that includes FS) with altered properties, but Wolf has his own completely different A moves.

Jigglypuff went the extreme opposite route (in Smash 64, I want to be clear). Completely different B moves, so many shared A moves with Kirby.

I copied this from ssbwiki

"Both share similar forward smashes, down smashes, neutral aerials, forward aerials (Kirby's hits multiple times, but he extends both legs in front of him as does Jigglypuff), down aerials, tilts, back throws, item animations, and ledge animations. Both also have near identical physics, with similar size, shape, weight, and falling speed, and both have five midair jumps (while all ten other characters have one). Their special moves, however, are all completely different. "

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Clone

Might wanna read that again fam. It says Puff is a "semi-clone" due to similar movesets. The only reason why I'm pointing the semi-part out is due to them having similar body shapes and it's clear Puff was a last minute add based on her getting in for a second Pokemon rep

As a matter of fact, why not Samus and Falcon be a clone because of similar movesets as well?


Absolutely not. Even with Puff being labeled as a semi-clone, I disagree with it

 

[WolfCypher]

I did leave that out (NOT on purpose), it does say semi-clone.

I was just surprised by how much Jigglypuff took from Kirby besides just jumps, throws, and models. I never played Jigglypuff in 64 (or Melee...or Brawl...or 4...and not Ultimate).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I was more so wondering if echoes of the original 12 will even be allowed.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I believe they share the same height and weight. I think they even share the same idles?

You’re probably right on both accounts. For some reasons I was thinking Marth was a bit taller.

No, Marth is just slightly taller. If I recall correctly, Sakurai even pointed it out in a pic of the day. Though the difference is so tiny you'll rarely notice it.

 

[Impa4Smash]

No, Marth is just slightly taller. If I recall correctly, Sakurai even pointed it out in a pic of the day. Though the difference is so tiny you'll rarely notice it.

Interesting. I wonder why Sakurai even made them different heights

 

[KMDP]

No, Marth is just slightly taller. If I recall correctly, Sakurai even pointed it out in a pic of the day. Though the difference is so tiny you'll rarely notice it.

Isn't the difference a matter of a single pixel/one or two pixels? Something like that.

 

[papagenos]

Isn't the difference a matter of a single pixel/one or two pixels? Something like that.

unsure but its probly more cosmetic than anything, even if technicaly their might be a one/two pixel hitbox height difference coded in

 

[BlondeLombax]

already exists...

Did you not see the sword and the choke, among other things? Ganondorf has diverged far enough to be considered his own character, no longer a clone of the Cap. Even then, it'd still be possible to give his Melee moveset to Shadow for those who enjoyed that incarnation. It's ultimately a win-win.

 

[PhantomShab]

Ganondorf has diverged far enough to be considered his own character, no longer a clone of the Cap.

lmao

 

[ZephyrZ]

Regarding Marth/Lucy's heigh, I must have been misremembering the pic of the day thing. I swear I saw evidence of them being different heights somewhere. Maybe it was a video demonstrating it or something. I'll have to do some digging to find it again.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Yeah Ganondorf is so incredibly different now that it's hard to even call him a clone anymore. Different Side-B, Similar but different Standing and up-b, and a noticeably similar down B but still unique. Pair that with his brand new smashes, F-air, and his unique f-tilt and you got a character that's diverged enough from Falcon that he's easily his own character. No more Falcondorf thank christ.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Seems we keep coming back to the topic of 'what makes an echo,' and nobody knows for sure. Even Nintendo's official lines seem to contradict...

Echoes are 100% the same size, but they can be slightly taller or shorter (Daisy and Lucy are both shorter than their parents)
Echoes have 100% the same moves, but they can have different moves (DP's got a different side-B)
Echoes have 100% the same hitboxes, but the hitboxes can change (Lucy's missing Marth's tipper)
Echoes have 100% the same animations, but the animations can chage (Daisy's got different idles, taunts, and even some attack animations are different)

So...echoes are simultaneously exactly the same, but not exactly the same...?

To me: they're still clones, and I look at clones on a case-by-case basis. If the clone is an interesting enough character that they deserve to be in with a fitting moveset, then I'm ok with it. However, we should not try to bloat the roster with a bunch of carbon copies just because obscure character #27 just happens to look similar to another character.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Did you not see the sword and the choke, among other things? Ganondorf has diverged far enough to be considered his own character, no longer a clone of the Cap. Even then, it'd still be possible to give his Melee moveset to Shadow for those who enjoyed that incarnation. It's ultimately a win-win.

Nah, Ganon is still very much modeled after Falcon at the moment. Until he starts to actually fight and feel like the Ganon from the Zelda games, he will simply remain a semi clone of Falcon.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Nah, Ganon is still very much modeled after Falcon at the moment. Until he starts to actually fight and feel like the Ganon from the Zelda games, he will simply remain a semi clone of Falcon.

That's incredibly subjective. I'd say he's diverged farther than most other clones and for that reason see him as mostly unique.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

That's incredibly subjective. I'd say he's diverged farther than most other clones and for that reason see him as mostly unique.

Well, I agree he's unique, but he's still not really "Ganondorf"

 

[Wyoming]

Nah, Ganon is still very much modeled after Falcon at the moment. Until he starts to actually fight and feel like the Ganon from the Zelda games, he will simply remain a semi clone of Falcon.

Eh calling him a semi clone now would be harsh. The new smash attacks definitely make him more distinct from Falcon not only aethestically, but in function. Dorf was always a slower version of Falcon's rushdown motif, but now with ranged attacks that spruces him up a notch.

They were trying to find a happy medium between Smash Ganondorf and canonical Dorf and I believe they achieved it excellently.

 

[-crump-]

I'm sorry, but...

Spoiler

Ridley > Evil Telephone

I'm also sorry but

Spoiler

Porky > Meany telephony

Alright so I’m late on responding to this, but I really want to get this out there:

Spoiler: Splatoon 2: Octo Expansion Spoilers (Final Boss)

that telephone is no joke.

Tartar has been luring countless Octolings into his trials with the “promised land” speal to prove their worth, so he can kill off the skilled ones for their DNA (raw materials). He sends actual children out on nightmare trials to gather up four collectibles... which form a blender that will ultimately shred them apart, so that he can use their remains to build his master race and destroy all life. When that stops working, it brings out a giant cannon with the power to wipe out all of Inkopolis, and possibly the world.

It’s heavily implied that Agent 8 was not the first one on the train, nor were they the first one to assemble the Blender.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Ganondorf is never gonna play like he does in his games. At this point Smash Ganon and Zelda Ganon are separate things. He's a frankenstein of several fighters and is basically his own, weird thing. Yet Ganondorf is still distinct in Smash despite never being 100% unique.

 

[KMDP]

Seems we keep coming back to the topic of 'what makes an echo,' and nobody knows for sure. Even Nintendo's official lines seem to contradict...

Echoes are 100% the same size, but they can be slightly taller or shorter (Daisy and Lucy are both shorter than their parents)
Echoes have 100% the same moves, but they can have different moves (DP's got a different side-B)
Echoes have 100% the same hitboxes, but the hitboxes can change (Lucy's missing Marth's tipper)
Echoes have 100% the same animations, but the animations can chage (Daisy's got different idles, taunts, and even some attack animations are different)

Well...

So...echoes are simultaneously exactly the same, but not exactly the same...?

Pretty much.

To me: they're still clones, and I look at clones on a case-by-case basis. If the clone is an interesting enough character that they deserve to be in with a fitting moveset, then I'm ok with it. However, we should not try to bloat the roster with a bunch of carbon copies just because obscure character #27 just happens to look similar to another character.

Yes, I agree with this.

I think the defining thing is that they are almost exactly the same without being exactly the same.
Lucina and Daisy's height difference is so miniscule it ultimately means nothing (unlike the height difference between Pikachu/Pichu and Link/Young Link)
The tipper difference is ultimately a minor change that has greater ramifications than the dev team may have foreseen.
Pit and Dark Pit's different specials, while using different models and having different knockback variables, are ultimately the same move, they use the same animations.
Daisy's different move animations are ultimately cosmetic, the moves do the same thing.

These are in contrast to the Melee clones, who had more differences in their makeup.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Pearl and Marina should be in Smash in some shape or form, just like the superior Squid Sisters Callie and Marie are

 

[Will]

Pearl and Marina should be in Smash in some shape or form, just like the superior Squid Sisters Callie and Marie are

trophies exist for a reason

 

[Zinith]

I'd be up for a Pearl trophy

 

[Will]

I'd be up for a Pearl trophy

Wow just gonna leave superior Marina? You got something against octopuses?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

With Lucina's height, yes she is actually shorter than Marth, but it is a matter of a couple pixels, so it's completely negligible (to give a reference of how minor that is, it's a difference between a glancing blow and a hit maybe registering, now consider how difficult it is to get glancing blows intentionally in a test setting and you'll see how negligible the difference is). It's the same with their reach too, so if someone tries claiming Marth is better because of "farther reach", they're speaking out of their ass.

Might wanna read that again fam. It says Puff is a "semi-clone" due to similar movesets. The only reason why I'm pointing the semi-part out is due to them having similar body shapes and it's clear Puff was a last minute add based on her getting in for a second Pokemon rep

As a matter of fact, why not Samus and Falcon be a clone because of similar movesets as well?


Absolutely not. Even with Puff being labeled as a semi-clone, I disagree with it

All the unlockable characters in Smash 64 were added because Sakurai could base them off an existing playable character and reuse assets, Luigi got completely cloned off of Mario, Jigglypuff got semi-cloned off of Kirby, and Falcon and Ness got based off of Samus and Mario respectively, though drastically altered so in the final game they only had a few leftover cloned moves/assets.

Seems we keep coming back to the topic of 'what makes an echo,' and nobody knows for sure. Even Nintendo's official lines seem to contradict...

Echoes are 100% the same size, but they can be slightly taller or shorter (Daisy and Lucy are both shorter than their parents)
Echoes have 100% the same moves, but they can have different moves (DP's got a different side-B)
Echoes have 100% the same hitboxes, but the hitboxes can change (Lucy's missing Marth's tipper)
Echoes have 100% the same animations, but the animations can chage (Daisy's got different idles, taunts, and even some attack animations are different)

So...echoes are simultaneously exactly the same, but not exactly the same...?

To me: they're still clones, and I look at clones on a case-by-case basis. If the clone is an interesting enough character that they deserve to be in with a fitting moveset, then I'm ok with it. However, we should not try to bloat the roster with a bunch of carbon copies just because obscure character #27 just happens to look similar to another character.

Echoes are essentially just alt-costumes with some minor gameplay/aesthetic differences for flavor to better represent the character, they're not intended to be typical clones, and it's not anything more complicated than that.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Ganondorf is never gonna play like he does in his games. At this point Smash Ganon and Zelda Ganon are separate things. He's a frankenstein of several fighters and is basically his own, weird thing. Yet Ganondorf is still distinct in Smash despite never being 100% unique.

Ganondorf in human form doesn't really have much to pull from the Zelda games to begin with, which is one of the reasons I can tolerate him being cloned from Falcon, though I still think a few additions would go a long way, like allowing him to levitate akin to Peach. I think the darkness and electric effects on his attacks are substantial enough to represent his dark magic and dead man's volley abilities.

 

[Androobie]

Oh, the year 2187... What a year full of nostalgia... You mortals will love that ****.

 

[Zerp]

The best way to think of and being based off of and is to treat it like and being based off of and , it doesn't mean they ended up being similar as much they reused a base for assets because it was easier than starting from scratch and worked from there, they're not really clones or semi-clones in any sense.

Oh, the year 2187. What a year full of nostalgia...

I mean, it's the year we finally get King K. Rool, of course it'd be filled with nostalgia for many.

 

[UltimateWario]

I wish Nintendo let Charles Martinet actually talk more. The new WarioWare is apparently fully voiced and it sounds so good.

I remember downloading Wario's lines from Mario Kart Wii and customizing my old laptop with them. When I turned it off, it said "So long, loser!". Good times.

To segue into an on-topic discussion, I hope we have a good talking easter egg this time, although I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't return with all the characters they'd have to cover. I think I'm the only one on the planet who didn't like Uprising's writing so I hope it isn't that ***** Palutena again.

 

[L9999]

Did you not see the sword and the choke, among other things? Ganondorf has diverged far enough to be considered his own character, no longer a clone of the Cap. Even then, it'd still be possible to give his Melee moveset to Shadow for those who enjoyed that incarnation. It's ultimately a win-win.

Lmao, according to who? Same skeleton, Falcon Punch, Falcon Kick, Falcon Dive, Utilt derivates, Bair, Dair, Uair, and Nair are exactly the same. Three smash attacks recycled from other characters don't make him different enough. He is Falcon with horrible mobility no matter how you look at it. If by unique you mean uniquely trash tier then Ganon truly is different enough from Captain Falcon.

 

[Will]

I mean, it's the year we finally get King K. Rool, of course it'd be filled with nostalgia for many.

The year is 2094, K. Rool is revealed for Smash 18 for his 100th anniversary. The whole 3 K. Rool fans left alive die from the shock.