Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PhantomShab]

What's ironic is that Wario says wah all the time too yet nobody seems to mind it with him.

Nope, definitely in the SNES version. He's the first enemy in the Megaton Punch competition. Here's a clip:

Ah. It's been forever since I played Super Star lol.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I predict that we're getting a new character announcement on the 11th. It's a certain anniversary for that franchise.

 

[KMDP]

I predict that we're getting a new character announcement on the 11th. It's a certain anniversary for that franchise.

Ooh... a mystery.

Video regarding my thoughts on Echo Dixie and Shadow.

"You shouldn't have made them Echoes..."

 

[NintenZ]

https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1013589123133792257?s=21

So I guess that this puts those rumors about Banjo potentially being announced this weekend to rest then, cause Rare said more announcements would happen tomorrow because of an outage. Whatever the case it’s not happening now at the very least, hopefully a newcomer reveal will Be later in the month.

 

[Megadoomer]

I predict that we're getting a new character announcement on the 11th. It's a certain anniversary for that franchise.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it rare that we get character announcements on anniversaries, if we get them at all? (we might get them for veterans, but I don't think that's happened for newcomers, no matter how many times people hype themselves up for it)

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

So Waluigi is a meme purely because people like to say something he says a lot? Would Pac-Man be a meme if people constantly said waka-waka? I'd bring up Sonic too and 'you're too slow' or really anything to do with speed but Sonic and some of his fellow characters are memes regardless. Seems odd to me that people say 'people only want Waluigi because of memes' when the 'meme' is just people saying one of his lines, especially since it's Waluigi specifically. The biggest draw for the character is his personality and that includes his 'wah'. He says it when surprised, when upset, it's the first part of his laugh etc. Waluigi without 'wah' is like Mario without 'let'sa go', Sonic without speed references, Robin without references to tactics and there's probably more examples. Heck, a meme got into Sm4sh with Shulk's 'now it's Shulk time' referencing Reyn's 'now it's Reyn time' line.

If you want an honest answer from me, then my theory is this: We've had a long decade of Nintendo playing it as safe as possible with the Mario franchise, and in that time, fans expecting more creativity have built up cults, of sorts, around the kinds of ever-so-slightly "obscure" material they've been wanting to see return.

This wording is probably a tad harsher than I mean it to be, but all I'm saying is that Waluigi, among other things, became memes among the fanbase because much of the substance for a long while has been fan-driven.

 

[KMDP]

I predict that we're getting a new character announcement on the 11th. It's a certain anniversary for that franchise.

Did some research... found some interesting games released on July 11th.
Like... Goof Troop (the boopinest game), and certain versions of Minecraft.

But I think you're talking about Yokai Watch.

 

[Krysco]

Found the part of the video that discusses echo fighters (assuming they only bring it up once) so thank you KMDP . They do mention run speed, walk speed and jump height requiring being the same but also mention 'general knockback' and that seems a bit more ambiguous. Lucina has the knockback amount (but not the angles mind you) altered on every single one of her moves save for throws and I think Dolphin Slash and Counter? Yet she's an echo. Dark Pit has a weaker ftilt (same strength as Pit's base ftilt but weaker than his tipper ftilt iirc) but his side special has an entirely different knockback angle and it's also electric yet he's an echo. They bring up Doc and how he's not an echo because of his different dair and his higher knockback and the pills. The different bouncing trajectory can be seen as a similarity to Dark Pit's different arrow speed and angles and the lack of fire property on the pills is similar to how Pit lacks the electric property on his side special. The knockback being different just raises the question of how much has to be changed for one to not be an echo? Every one of Doc's moves has different knockback to Mario's. Some are just stronger with the same knockback angle while others are a bit more unique like nair starting weak and becoming stronger, fair and usmash have completely different angles and up special is actually more like Luigi's with a strong inital hit and a weak late hit. The only definitive things that Doc seems to have that the other 2 lack is movement speed/jump height differences and a move that requires a completely separate animation that isn't a Final Smash or a taunt, that being his dair and down special.

There seems to be a very thin line between what is and isn't an echo. I doubt Doc took much work to create but his differences are enough to avoid the label of 'echo fighter' and as a result, he gets his own number on the main website, while Dark Pit and Lucina are stuck sharing their numbers with Pit and Marth respectively.

 

[EchoAegis]

https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1013589123133792257?s=21

So I guess that this puts those rumors about Banjo potentially being announced this weekend to rest then, cause Rare said more announcements would happen tomorrow because of an outage. Whatever the case it’s not happening now at the very least, hopefully a newcomer reveal will Be later in the month.

Rumors about Banjo what the hell where did all this stuff come from?

 

[Zinith]

I'm pretty sure newcomer reveals are handled differently for each Smash game.

Smash 64 just put on store shelves and there's the characters
Melee had one E3 Trailer showing all the starters (except Zelda) and then the game released
Brawl had a few trailers showing off some newcomers, but then had a slow drip of newcomer reveals on the DOJO site until the Japanese release
Smash 4 had trailers for virtually every newcomer

What's the plan this time?

 

[Chandeelure]

Do you have a video with Bandanna Dee's voice? (Odd question. I know.)

Well, first, I found this tweet promoting the 3 songs with vocals from the concert.

だ、大ニュースですっ！！
カラオケ「JOYSOUND」にて、25周年メモリアルアレンジCDの収録楽曲が配信されましたっ！
メタナイトさんやセクトニアさんまでも…？
プププランドでは、カラオケ大会でも開催されているのでしょうか…
われわれも、負けずに歌っていきたいです！ pic.twitter.com/rElXbrtW8n

— 星のカービィ (@Kirby_JP) March 30, 2018

Bandana Dee, Meta Knight and Queen Sectonia were the singers.

And... sorry, the videos with Bandana Dee and Susie talking were deleted for some reason.

ばっばっばーん！バトデラNEWS！
スージーさんとボクとで『カービィ バトルデラックス！』の必勝法をばばーんと解説する、超デラックスなムービーが公開されたよ！https://t.co/u3K5LQfDyE
これを見れば、勝利のヒケツがバッチリ分かるねっ！ pic.twitter.com/Anp7m1ONhR

— 星のカービィ (@Kirby_JP) November 15, 2017

ばばーん！バトデラNEWS！
みんな、バトル楽しんでくれてるかな？『カービィ バトルデラックス！』をもう遊んでくれた人も、まだ遊んでない人も、『カービィ バトルデラックス！必勝法映像』をチェック！https://t.co/Sun94WHxZG
これを見れば、勝利はキミのもの！？ボクも復習しておこう！ pic.twitter.com/2osy30GCru

— 星のカービィ (@Kirby_JP) December 15, 2017

 

[Pakky]

Captain Toad - Well done very well done!

Paper Mario - Alright, none of that Sticker Star nonsense please

K. Rool - Can you judge a man for crying, when his dreams come true? CAN YOU? Can we set sail BKupa666 ?

Dixie Kong - The trio is complete everything is as it should be.

Skull Kid - Hmmm Alright.

Champion - Nani?

Dark Samus - Oh, okay alright

Bandana Waddle Dee - Now I can relax, whew everyone is here!

Decidueye - *Hat eating noises*, looks at @Lampy's smug face

Incineroar - OH YEAH!

Mimikyu - I TOLD YOU ALL I FRICKEN TOLD YA!

Celica - Waifus are nice.

Ashley - Wario Ware got a newcomer!

Elma - Yes

Rex & Pyra - Hehe

Wonder Red - Yeyeyeyeye

Dillon - Dank

Spring Man - Holy crap, that's surprising!

Simon - Legit, I'm intrigued

Crash - Well when ya got me ya got me, Playstation looking like straight up turkeys jeez

 

[KMDP]

Found the part of the video that discusses echo fighters (assuming they only bring it up once) so thank you KMDP . They do mention run speed, walk speed and jump height requiring being the same but also mention 'general knockback' and that seems a bit more ambiguous. Lucina has the knockback amount (but not the angles mind you) altered on every single one of her moves save for throws and I think Dolphin Slash and Counter? Yet she's an echo. Dark Pit has a weaker ftilt (same strength as Pit's base ftilt but weaker than his tipper ftilt iirc) but his side special has an entirely different knockback angle and it's also electric yet he's an echo. They bring up Doc and how he's not an echo because of his different dair and his higher knockback and the pills. The different bouncing trajectory can be seen as a similarity to Dark Pit's different arrow speed and angles and the lack of fire property on the pills is similar to how Pit lacks the electric property on his side special. The knockback being different just raises the question of how much has to be changed for one to not be an echo? Every one of Doc's moves has different knockback to Mario's. Some are just stronger with the same knockback angle while others are a bit more unique like nair starting weak and becoming stronger, fair and usmash have completely different angles and up special is actually more like Luigi's with a strong inital hit and a weak late hit. The only definitive things that Doc seems to have that the other 2 lack is movement speed/jump height differences and a move that requires a completely separate animation that isn't a Final Smash or a taunt, that being his dair and down special.

There seems to be a very thin line between what is and isn't an echo. I doubt Doc took much work to create but his differences are enough to avoid the label of 'echo fighter' and as a result, he gets his own number on the main website, while Dark Pit and Lucina are stuck sharing their numbers with Pit and Marth respectively.

The thing about Doctor Mario is that he has a different Down Special (Doctor Tornado instead of F.L.U.D.D.) and Down Aerial, and his Neutral Special and Up Special work differently (the Pills have a different bounce arc and his Super Jump Punch hits once IIRC instead of multiple times like vanilla Mario's), not to mention Doc's different walk speed and damage output.

A point I mentioned a while ago is that Echoes might be more about your approach fighting them. You fight Lucina, Dark Pit and, presumably, Daisy the same way you'd fight Marth, Pit and Peach. But you have to change your tactics, if slightly, against Dr. Mario and Pichu.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it rare that we get character announcements on anniversaries, if we get them at all? (we might get them for veterans, but I don't think that's happened for newcomers, no matter how many times people hype themselves up for it)

Well, Little Mac was announced during Punch-Out's anniversary (which year, I cannot recall), so it's definitely a viable option. I'm sure there were others over the course of the franchise, too.

 

[Will]

I predict that we're getting a new character announcement on the 11th. It's a certain anniversary for that franchise.

I said it before with Banjo, no character has ever been announced for their game anniversary. Not now, and likely not ever.

 

[SonicMario]

I'm pretty sure newcomer reveals are handled differently for each Smash game.

Smash 64 just put on store shelves and there's the characters
Melee had one E3 Trailer showing all the starters (except Zelda) and then the game released
Brawl had a few trailers showing off some newcomers, but then had a slow drip of newcomer reveals on the DOJO site until the Japanese release
Smash 4 had trailers for virtually every newcomer

What's the plan this time?

Depends what happens in July (Or rather this month now). Back in Smash 4 we at least got one character a month (Counting veterans among that anyway) though we got Newcomers nearly bi-monthly after Rosalina's reveal. If there's a character reveal then it's possible we have a monthly newcomer reveal this time around. Though keep in mind some of this could include Echoes among that number.

If nothing happens this month, I think they'll be hiding any new characters specifically for Nintendo directs.

 

[NintenZ]

Rumors about Banjo what the hell where did all this stuff come from?

Rare had stated that they were going to announce a few things related to the Banjo Kazooie franchise, as it was happening at a similar time as with the announcement that Smash would be at CEO, it started a rumor that Nintendo and Rare would collectively announce Banjo at CEO. Since today is the last day of announcements from Rare, and we have already gotten the blog post, it’s pretty much certain Banjo isn’t getting announced, at least at CEO.

 

[Impa4Smash]

There has to be a Nintendo Direct in July for 3ds games right? WarioWare Gold drops the beginning of August and there’s been like no advertising

Maybe a character reveal then?

 

[Arcadenik]

Here's an activity for you all.

State your reaction for each of these events.

Your reaction if Captain Toad is revealed.
Your reaction if Papaer Mario is revealed.
Your reaction if K.Rool is revealed.
Your reaction if Dixie Kong is revealed.
Your reaction if Skull Kid is revealed.
Your reaction if a champion is revealed.
Your reaction if Dark Samus is revealed.
Your reaction if Bandana Waddle Dee is revealed.
Your reaction if Decidueye is revealed.
Your reaction if Incineroar is revealed.
Your reaction if Mimikyu is revealed.
Your reaction if Celica is revealed.
Your reaction if Ashley is revealed.
Your reaction if Elma is Revealed.
Your reaction if Rex and Pyra is revealed.
Your reaction if Wonder Red is revealed.
Your reaction if Dillon is revealed.
Your reaction if Spring Man is revealed.
Your reaction if Simon is revealed.
Your reaction if Crash is revealed.

Captain Toad - FINALLY!
Paper Mario - Oh cool.
King K. Rool - Awesome.
Dixie Kong - YES!
Skull Kid - Wow!
Champion Mipha - Oh.
Champion Daruk - Oh.
Champion Urbosa - Oh.
Champion Revali - So that means no Decidueye.
Dark Samus - Oh.
Bandana Waddle Dee - Awesome.
Decidueye - YES!
Incineroar - Decidueye would be better.
Mimikyu - Oh cool.
Celica - Oh cool.
Ashley - Wow.
Elma - Oh cool.
Rex and Pyra - Nice!
Wonder Red - Oh.
Dillon - Oh cool.
Spring Man - Awesome.
Simon Belmont - YES! The Captain N team is finally reunited. Now we need to get Captain N in Smash!
Crash Bandicoot - Oh cool.
Meowth - YES! FINALLY! YES! YES! YES!

 

[KMDP]

I'm pretty sure newcomer reveals are handled differently for each Smash game.

Smash 64 just put on store shelves and there's the characters
Melee had one E3 Trailer showing all the starters (except Zelda) and then the game released
Brawl had a few trailers showing off some newcomers, but then had a slow drip of newcomer reveals on the DOJO site until the Japanese release
Smash 4 had trailers for virtually every newcomer

What's the plan this time?

If you'll allow some pedantry for a bit, Zelda was in the Melee trailer. Repeatedly.

EDIT: Actually, it depends on which trailer you mean. Zelda didn't appear in one of them.

 

[Hinata]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it rare that we get character announcements on anniversaries, if we get them at all? (we might get them for veterans, but I don't think that's happened for newcomers, no matter how many times people hype themselves up for it)

As someone else mentioned, the only example I can think of is when Little Mac was announced on Punch-Out's 30th anniversary.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

What's ironic is that Wario says wah all the time too yet nobody seems to mind it with him.

People let it slide because he has his own series. Two, even. Waluigi usually just tags along in the spin-offs.

 

[Krysco]

The thing about Doctor Mario is that he has a different Down Special (Doctor Tornado instead of F.L.U.D.D.) and Down Aerial, and his Neutral Special and Up Special work differently (the Pills have a different bounce arc and his Super Jump Punch hits once IIRC instead of multiple times like vanilla Mario's), not to mention Doc's different walk speed and damage output.

A point I mentioned a while ago is that Echoes might be more about your approach fighting them. You fight Lucina, Dark Pit and, presumably, Daisy the same way you'd fight Marth, Pit and Peach. But you have to change your tactics, if slightly, against Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Yeah, I'm thinking the unique moves is a big requirement for not being an echo. And you bring up a good point about having to fight echoes the same but Doc and Mario differently but I'd go even further and mention how you play AS them. Lucina and Marth can be played relatively similarly as can Pit and Pittoo but Doc and Mario can't. Doc has less speed so he has a harder time approaching, has a worse recovery making it riskier to go offstage and has fewer grab followups, making him overall less reliant on grabs than Mario is.

If you want an honest answer from me, then my theory is this: We've had a long decade of Nintendo playing it as safe as possible with the Mario franchise, and in that time, fans expecting more creativity have built up cults, of sorts, around the kinds of ever-so-slightly "obscure" material they've been wanting to see return.

This wording is probably a tad harsher than I mean it to be, but all I'm saying is that Waluigi, among other things, became memes among the fanbase because much of the substance for a long while has been fan-driven.

Interesting theory though the immediate thing that comes to mind is Paper Mario. I don't know if you meant all Mario series when you said Nintendo has been playing it safe but Paper Mario has that same 'cult' situation. Nearly anyone who played 64 and TTYD wants the future games to be more like them with partners and...less Toad NPCs. At the same time, I'm sure there are people who started with Sticker Star and Color Splash and want the series to continue in that direction. And while not Nintendo, Sonic's basically made a living off of 'cults' with classic fans, Adventure fans and Boost fans all being different groups who want from the same franchise.

Sonic and his series are quite memey too though Paper Mario isn't so I can't really say for sure if your theory is on the right track or not.

 

[EchoAegis]

Rare had stated that they were going to announce a few things related to the Banjo Kazooie franchise, as it was happening at a similar time as with the announcement that Smash would be at CEO, it started a rumor that Nintendo and Rare would collectively announce Banjo at CEO. Since today is the last day of announcements from Rare, and we have already gotten the blog post, it’s pretty much certain Banjo isn’t getting announced, at least at CEO.

Hmm I see, shame but I don't think Nintendo would ever let a different company do the teasing for a character in smash ever

 

[Zinith]

If you'll allow some pedantry for a bit, Zelda was in the Melee trailer. Repeatedly.

EDIT: Actually, it depends on which trailer you mean. Zelda didn't appear in one of them.

I said E3 Trailer in that post, so that one.

Sheik will never be Zelda

 

[Chandeelure]

Well, first, I found this tweet promoting the 3 songs with vocals from the concert.

だ、大ニュースですっ！！
カラオケ「JOYSOUND」にて、25周年メモリアルアレンジCDの収録楽曲が配信されましたっ！
メタナイトさんやセクトニアさんまでも…？
プププランドでは、カラオケ大会でも開催されているのでしょうか…
われわれも、負けずに歌っていきたいです！ pic.twitter.com/rElXbrtW8n

— 星のカービィ (@Kirby_JP) March 30, 2018

Bandana Dee, Meta Knight and Queen Sectonia were the singers.

Also, in case you want to hear the 3 songs with vocals...

Spoiler

Meta Knight, "Take Off!!":

Bandana Waddle Dee, "Apple Juice Song":

Queen Sectonia, "Eternal Dream":

I will sleep now lol.

There isn't much to discuss.

 

[KMDP]

I said E3 Trailer in that post, so that one.

Sheik will never be Zelda

At the time, I thought the 'trailer' that eventually was used as the Melee opener was what was shown at E3 (I think both might have been?), I was going to make a crack about you getting too distracted by the Yoshis that immediately follow one of the Zelda appearances.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Interesting theory though the immediate thing that comes to mind is Paper Mario. I don't know if you meant all Mario series when you said Nintendo has been playing it safe but Paper Mario has that same 'cult' situation. Nearly anyone who played 64 and TTYD wants the future games to be more like them with partners and...less Toad NPCs. At the same time, I'm sure there are people who started with Sticker Star and Color Splash and want the series to continue in that direction. And while not Nintendo, Sonic's basically made a living off of 'cults' with classic fans, Adventure fans and Boost fans all being different groups who want from the same franchise.

Sonic and his series are quite memey too though Paper Mario isn't so I can't really say for sure if your theory is on the right track or not.

Really? Because I've never heard anyone say that.

I've heard people praise the art direction, humor, and music, but I've never seen a reviewer defend the (heavily flawed) battle system.

EDIT: also when I said the Mario franchise I meant Paper Mario as well. Pretty much any game released in between New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario Odyssey honestly (with some exceptions of course).

 

[Zinith]

At the time, I thought the 'trailer' that eventually was used as the Melee opener was what was shown at E3 (I think both might have been?), I was going to make a crack about you getting too distracted by the Yoshis that immediately follow one of the Zelda appearances.

Have you taken a good look at those Yoshis? If anything I'd cover my eyes from the horrendous nightmare creatures that converge onto the scene!!

 

[Krysco]

Really? Because I've never heard anyone say that.

I've heard people praise the art direction, humor, and music, but I've never seen a reviewer defend the (heavily flawed) battle system.

I've never heard anyone say it either honestly. I'm just saying that I'm sure they exist. Little kids who weren't born or were too young when 64 and TTYD came out and so started with SS and CS are primarily who come to mind. People who wouldn't exactly post online much I doubt they're a majority by any means but I'm sure they exist even if only due to ignorance of how good 64 and TTYD are.

 

[KMDP]

Have you taken a good look at those Yoshis? If anything I'd cover my eyes from the horrendous nightmare creatures that converge onto the scene!!

Turns out I was right, Zelda appears twice in the E3 2001 trailer, once as a hand (with Link and Ganondorf), and once as a head behind Sheik.

In the final version of the opening, Zelda appears one more time, replacing shots of Link.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Here's an activity for you all.

State your reaction for each of these events.

Your reaction if Captain Toad is revealed.
Your reaction if Papaer Mario is revealed.
Your reaction if K.Rool is revealed.
Your reaction if Dixie Kong is revealed.
Your reaction if Skull Kid is revealed.
Your reaction if a champion is revealed.
Your reaction if Dark Samus is revealed.
Your reaction if Bandana Waddle Dee is revealed.
Your reaction if Decidueye is revealed.
Your reaction if Incineroar is revealed.
Your reaction if Mimikyu is revealed.
Your reaction if Celica is revealed.
Your reaction if Ashley is revealed.
Your reaction if Elma is Revealed.
Your reaction if Rex and Pyra is revealed.
Your reaction if Wonder Red is revealed.
Your reaction if Dillon is revealed.
Your reaction if Spring Man is revealed.
Your reaction if Simon is revealed.
Your reaction if Crash is revealed.

My reaction for all:

I'll get excited for just about any character being added into Smash. Having new content and/or characters I want to use makes me happy and seeing other people get hype for the character they wanted to be in the game get in gets me hyped for them.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I said E3 Trailer in that post, so that one.

Sheik will never be Zelda

Well, Ultimate uses a completely different Zelda now, so...

Really? Because I've never heard anyone say that.

I've heard people praise the art direction, humor, and music, but I've never seen a reviewer defend the (heavily flawed) battle system.

EDIT: also when I said the Mario franchise I meant Paper Mario as well. Pretty much any game released in between New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario Odyssey honestly (with some exceptions of course).

Even Super Paper Mario would be a better direction to follow than the course SS and RS are taking.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Even Super Paper Mario would be a better direction to follow than the course SS and RS are taking.

Are you implying Super Paper Mario isn't a good game...

...because if you are you and me are gonna have to have a little chat.

 

[Zinith]

Turns out I was right, Zelda appears twice in the E3 2001 trailer, once as a hand (with Link and Ganondorf), and once as a head behind Sheik.

In the final version of the opening, Zelda appears one more time, replacing shots of Link.

I'm more shocked that Ganondorf and Jigglypuff showed up in that trailer. I was pretty sure no unlockable was revealed at the time.

 

[Pakky]

Random reactions

Shadow- What have you done? *Edgy music plays* WHAT HAVE YOU DONNNNNNNNNE?

Steve- Whew, um alright

Rabbids- Okay Alright that's fine, I can dig it

Rayman- Had me sweating thank heavens

Spyro- What, omg, when, that's amazing.

Banjo & Kazooie- WOW hell yeah

Yooka Laylee- Why have you forsaken me?

Meat Boy- I was a fool

Issac from the binding of Isaac- The elders warned me and I laughed at them, now I am the one who is frightened...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Are you implying Super Paper Mario isn't a good game...

...because if you are you and me are gonna have to have a little chat.

Actually, I was saying what I said because it's the most different of the lot, gameplay-wise. No hating. I could never hate a game that lets you play Paper Luigi for once.

 

[Impa4Smash]

It’s crazy to look back at Melee and then look at the Ultimate trailer. Like the graphics have come such a long way.

And the Ultimate trailer had like 66 characters. Wild when you think about it

 

[Zinith]

Yooka Laylee- Why have you forsaken me?

Hey don't diss Yooka Laylee...

 

[Impa4Smash]

Actually, I was saying what I said because it's the most different of the lot, gameplay-wise. No hating. I could never hate a game that lets you play Paper Luigi for once.

The Underworld level and the one before where the world just ceases to exist was so dark