Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Fatmanonice]

K. Rool? I think his chances are kind of overblown and I feel like he's hitched to Dixie. What I mean is, if Dixie misses the boat I don't see him coming. I put Dixie over him for a multiple of reasons but, from a development standpoint, I think she could get away with being a Luigified clone of Diddy in the same sense as Lucas to Ness or Falco/Wolf to Fox: similar size and weight, might share some moves, but have totally different game play elements that make them work a lot different from one another. You can see the original influence in characters like Ganondorf and Toon Link but you'd be dismissed as a total moron if you suggested they were true clones or echo fighters. Dixie could probably get away with using Diddy's aerials and ground moves (albeit slight altered) but would obviously be set apart with a likely tether grab and a variety of moves involving her hair.

 

[Shroob]

Also, what classifies as retro? From what I recall, G&W was a "retro" character despite his series' last game being 10 years before Melee. Ice Climber were 16 years before Melee. If that's the minimum amount of time, then K. Rool may also be considered retro at this point as he fits somewhere between there.

The universal agreement for a "Retro" character is they either represent a piece of Nintendo Hardware: Game and Watch, R.O.B., the Zapper, or were on the NES and basically had no new games since(Ice Climbers, Pit in Brawl).

The term doesn't apply to established series as of yet.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Let's look at Smash 4 for example.

Besides Megaman and Pac-Man(I think?), and Duck Hunt, every newcomer had been in a game within the last 5 or so years, give or take.

Relevance does play a part, it just does. Nintendo does use Smash to promote their newest games.

Mega Man's last game was only two years before development of Smash 4 started, so he's not an exception.

 

[P.Kat]

Not everything is connected to smash.

I belie-What? *sigh* *takes down recently constructed diagram describing the highly possible convergence of the Nintendo Direct, Okami HD, and Amaterasu's character reveal trailer as a newcomer in Smash, all on August 9*

You couldn't of said something earlier? XD

 

[Shroob]

Mega Man's last game was only two years before development of Smash 4 started, so he's not an exception.

Honestly, I couldn't even remember since that time in history, people were outcrying that Megaman had been left to rot.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

K. Rool? I think his chances are kind of overblown and I feel like he's hitched to Dixie. What I mean is, if Dixie misses the boat I don't see him coming. I put Dixie over him for a multiple of reasons but, from a development standpoint, I think she could get away with being a Luigified clone of Diddy in the same sense as Lucas to Ness or Falco/Wolf to Fox: similar size and weight, might share some moves, but have totally different game play elements that make them work a lot different from one another. You can see the original influence in characters like Ganondorf and Toon Link but you'd be dismissed as a total moron if you suggested they were true clones or echo fighters. Dixie could probably get away with using Diddy's aerials and ground moves (albeit slight altered) but would obviously be set apart with a likely tether grab and a variety of moves involving her hair.

I genuinely do believe we'll see Dixie first, I just don't like these regurgitated claims against the character constantly being brought up

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Well Sonic Mania is made by hardcore Sonic fans who earned SEGA's trust with fangames. Mighty is incredibly popular in the hardcore fan game/hack community

Very true, I'm honestly just glad at all the stuff Christian Whitehead did for us in Mania, now if only the main directors could get their act together and give us something like Generations again... But just Modern Sonic boost style, I honestly love it and I wish they'd use it for a full game, in full 3D (not particularly fond of how Colours did it).

Then again I'm an oddball who likes both 2D and 3D Sonic

 

[True Blue Warrior]

or were on the NES and basically had no new games since(Ice Climbers, Pit in Brawl).

Except that is false as Excite Bike was considered as an NES representative in 1999 when the Melee roster was finalized despite the fact he had an upcoming game that was revealed in May 12, 1999.

 

[papagenos]

K. Rool? I think his chances are kind of overblown and I feel like he's hitched to Dixie. What I mean is, if Dixie misses the boat I don't see him coming. I put Dixie over him for a multiple of reasons but, from a development standpoint, I think she could get away with being a Luigified clone of Diddy in the same sense as Lucas to Ness or Falco/Wolf to Fox: similar size and weight, might share some moves, but have totally different game play elements that make them work a lot different from one another. You can see the original influence in characters like Ganondorf and Toon Link but you'd be dismissed as a total moron if you suggested they were true clones or echo fighters. Dixie could probably get away with using Diddy's aerials and ground moves (albeit slight altered) but would obviously be set apart with a likely tether grab and a variety of moves involving her hair.

Dixie is certainly easier to make, and to be perfectly honest more deserving than k rool as shes stuck with the series, would still be relevant and recognizable to younger fans today, and even was the STAR (not sidekick) of one of the best snes games DKC2.

that said im still hopeful for both and still thinking we'll get both as there are signs that bode well for k rool as well.

 

[Shroob]

Except that is false as Excite Bike was considered as an NES representative in 1999 when the Melee roster was finalized despite the fact he had an upcoming game that was revealed in May 12, 1999.

And, he's not in.

So, my point still stands that all the currently in-game characters follow this trend.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I genuinely do believe we'll see Dixie first, I just don't like these regurgitated claims against the character constantly being brought up

At this point I wouldn't mind even Funky showing up first, as long as we finally get more than two Kong klanners.

 

[MattOnwheels]

So now us K. Rool fans have to get essentially the same treatment as Ridley fans, even though Ridley proves anything can happen?


Okay, SmashBoards! We see you. Kiss our Kremling Azzes then. We'll enjoy his eventual inclusion without you.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

And, he's not in.

So, my point still stands that all the currently in-game characters follow this trend.

Sakurai loves to break trends. Look at every fan theory ever.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And, he's not in.

So, my point still stands that all the currently in-game characters follow this trend.

Trends=/=Rules. There is no rule that an "retro" character is disqualified from being a "retro" character in the eyes of Sakurai once they have a new game. That is a pure fan assumption. Even then, Little Mac absolutely counts as an "retro" character, so that trend has already been broken.

 

[Pacack]

I would agree, though I also feel it's sort of coincidence since the three are established as "surprise characters" foremost.

While this is true, I think it's fairly clear that these characters are chosen to be our surprise characters because of their importance.

We don't yet know the full scope of what it means to be one aside from simply being kept as much of a secret as possible until release and people unlock them, but coincidentally all three have historic value and come from the NES era or earlier.
We won't really know if that trend will continue until we know of more newcomers, though.

I mean, that's a hell of a coincidence if it is one. If all that was important was that the character be surprising, then why couldn't Wii Fit Trainer have been saved for that position?

 

[Troykv]

Honestly, I couldn't even remember since that time in history, people were outcrying that Megaman had been left to rot.

Well; many Megaman stuff ended up canceled; I understand why people became mad on those days.

 

[Shroob]

Trends=/=Rules. There is no rule that an "retro" character is disqualified from being a "retro" character in the eyes of Sakurai once they have a new game. That is a pure fan assumption.

I'm not saying there is a rule.

If you read my post I use the phrase "Universal agreement". An agreement meaning that this is what most people in the fanbase agree on, not it being word of god.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm not saying there is a rule.

If you read my post I use the phrase "Universal agreement". An agreement meaning that this is what most people in the fanbase agree on, not it being word of god.

What most people "universally agreed" doesn't matter as people have been constantly wrong because of their assumptions.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Ridley changed the game. EVERYONE is on the table now.

 

[Shroob]

What most people "universally agreed" doesn't matter as people have been constantly wrong because of their assumptions.

It's possible, but so far it hasn't changed.

It could change this game, but we won't know until we see the final roster. If a new 'retro' character shows up, and is in a similar situation as someone like Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt, then it will still hold true until the next Smash.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

We should learn from our previous fan agreements that Sakurai always aims to destroy our expectations; don't see the point in developing more to maintain an opinionated "realistic" ideal based on loose fan terms to begin with.

 

[Murlough]

To propose something one needs to know the contents of something friend.

You don't go to a big time proposal in any medium in the industry of entertainment without knowing what you're doing.

That proposal can change along the way, yes, but you need to know an idea of what you're doing.

Otherwise the people you're meeting are gonna laugh at you and go ''Come back when you have a real idea."

And someone who has been in the industry as long as Sakurai would know that.

He most assuredly went to Nintendo with ideas for not only the veterans coming back, but also newcomers.

Lets be real here. Sakurai could have said "Sup, my dogs I want to do another Smash game, except this time we are bringing EVERYONE."

Another Smash game is another success. If it were 64 then yeah it probably would take some convincing but this is Ultimate. The WII U version was a success despite the system's terrible failure. They would be crazy to say to Sakurai "nah, we don't think Smash is worth it right now."

Just saying "I want to do another Smash" would just about be a green light.

My point I'm getting to is: Sakurai very well may have decided on new things since that initial proposal. It really wouldn't take that much effort on his part to get the next Smash off the ground.

Then again....its Sakurai who continues exceeding expectations with style so he may have known exactly what he was going to do.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So now us K. Rool fans have to get essentially the same treatment as Ridley fans, even though Ridley proves anything can happen?


Okay, SmashBoards! We see you. Kiss our Kremling ***** then. We'll enjoy his eventual inclusion without you.

There's no need for any of this. If it really hurts you that much?

Remember this is a fanbase who thinks a newcomer from a still rising and growing series like Xenoblade is more of a given than Isabelle from Animal Crossing who practically took her franchise over and became it's face after only one game.

They also think Decidueye is one of the most popular Gen 7 Pokemon around and we've shown that wrong many times by saying it's actually Rowlet and you can't round up like that.

They don't really speak for reality a lot.

Don't let what people say here get to you.

 

[Curious Villager]

Also, what classifies as retro? From what I recall, G&W was a "retro" character despite his series' last game being 10 years before Melee. Ice Climber was 16 years before Melee. If that's the minimum amount of time, then K. Rool may also be considered retro at this point as he fits somewhere between there.

I don't think there is a specific timeframe for it. As far as Nintendo seems to be concerned, retro, generally refers to the NES generation of games. At least if the NES remix, Mario Maker(Mystery Mushrooms), Pushmo, the 8 bit Mario/Zelda easter eggs and even Smash are anything to go by. Any generations in between don't tend to get as much attention from them for the most part.

It's like It's their equivalent of Pokemon gen 1 that is going on with the Pokemon fandom or something.

 

[Will]

I want everyone to have a unique victory theme but dreams are dreams I guess.

I do too, but that can be a challenge for some characters. What are you gonna use for characters like ?

 

[Pacack]

The universal agreement for a "Retro" character is they either represent a piece of Nintendo Hardware: Game and Watch, R.O.B., the Zapper, or were on the NES and basically had no new games since(Ice Climbers, Pit in Brawl).

The term doesn't apply to established series as of yet.

If you read my post I use the phrase "Universal agreement". An agreement meaning that this is what most people in the fanbase agree on, not it being word of god.

I would hesitate on calling it universal, even. I'm personally of the opinion that hardware is a completely coincidental part of the historical character's inclusion.

What I mean is that I think the characters were chosen for their overall importance to Nintendo first and foremost, but that they happened to have hardware attached to them coincidentally since some of Nintendo's most important innovations have been in hardware.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Then again....its Sakurai who continues exceeding expectations with style so he may have known exactly what he was going to do.

He most certainly did know some of, if not all, of what he was going to do in that proposal, because to even hire a crew you're going to need to know how many people to hire, what the budget is like, etc, etc.

 

[Makai Wars]

Is it bad that I really hope we don't get another "uuu wacky unexpected character!" reveal?

Duck Hunt? Great. Bowser Jr? Cool! Wii Fit? Eh?? The gimmick is fun and Wii Fit is unique but in Smash 5, where every character slot is precious and lots of people have their hopes and dreams on the line, having a random character put in for no other reason than being random feels super lame, like the novelty wore off when we got R.O.B., plus Wii Fit is so tied to her gimmick of having no disjoints that she's a really bad character too. As much as I appreciate these fun ideas, I can live without Excitebike guy, or Balloon Fight guy, or the personification of the DS charger turned into a fighter, and would be much happier with a character people are actually asking for.

 

[Shroob]

There's no need for any of this. If it really hurts you that much?

Remember this is a fanbase who thinks a newcomer from a still rising and growing series like Xenoblade is more of a given than Isabelle from Animal Crossing who practically took her franchise over and became it's face after only one game.

They also think Decidueye is one of the most popular Gen 7 Pokemon around and we've shown that wrong many times by saying it's actually Rowlet and you can't round up like that.

They don't really speak for reality a lot.

Don't let what people say here get to you.

My gripe with Isabelle is that she was an assist trophy in 4, and I'm not one to jump on the "Holy, we didn't see her at E3, that must mean she's in!" when we're still missing probably 30 assist trophies.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

We should learn from our previous fan agreements that Sakurai always aims to destroy our expectations; don't see the point in developing more to maintain an opinionated "realistic" ideal based on loose fan terms to begin with.

This, a thousand times. We should try to be more supportive of our theories and not just let this thread become the "Ultimate Grasping At Straws Discussion".

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ridley and K. Rool aren't the same though for a number of reasons with the biggest being that Ridley has been around since the first game and has been in all the major outings and remakes except Prime: Echoes. K. Rool hasn't had a role in a non-spin off game since DK64 which is almost two decades now. Ridley has been a glaring omission since Melee while K. Rool's last peak of relevance was around the release of Brawl. I'm not saying it won't happen but if K. Rool gets in, it's overwhelmingly going to be because of fan demand because he hasn't been a DK series icon in a long, long time.

 

[Will]

or the personification of the DS charger turned into a fighter.

Who?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'd still go for Medusa first. Not only because she is the villain with the most appearances in the series, but would be a two-fer of a new female AND villain inclusion.

Well technically Medusa isn’t the villain with the most appearances in the 3 game series (unless you’re specifically counting the amount of times she’s been shown in the game and not how many games she’s been in. Otherwise she’d be tied with many of the original KI villains, including Pandora).

I want everyone to have a unique victory theme but dreams are dreams I guess.

Might as well stay as a dream atm since a unique victory theme for eveyone wouldn’t work for lots of the characters (like most/all of the Mario/Pokémon/Fire Emblem characters, and the Pit/Palutena combo)

 

[Sharkarat]

Stop the **** about relevancy not mattering for newcomers, it's plain as day that it does for everyone that isn't a retro pick.
And the Smash community's favorites show age. K. Rool, Geno, Banjo, but also stuff like krystal and Isaac makes it super obvious are the "core" fans are from the 64-GC era or older. And "but Warioland" is also part of the pattern here.
There are reasons this fanbase mostly want to fill out older series with characters.
And Ridley unlike those above mentioned character is actually still relevant.

and if we want to use not coming in until the finale as an excuse, why is Bowser and why was Bowser considered the most iconic villain in gaming when most of his portrayals have him show up as the final boss only in the main games and people constantly butcher his name as "Browser"?

In the original SMB he's literally every boss. In 64 he's three times + the game over thing. there's also literally all the mario spinoffs. He's iconic partly because of his constant use in mario games and media.
Only DK+Smash fans that know who K. Rool is.

Smash has a unique position where it can revive dead franchises and characters. it did this specifically with Kid Icarus after pit was added to smash, other games like earthbound got a huge boost in popularity retroactively after Ness was chosen as one of our first smash characters. Even things like Game and Watch and R.O.B. get waaaay more attention than they ever did before smash, i barely was aware of either of them before hand.

So thats one reason I think characters like K Rool, Geno, and Banjo Kazooie are so heavily requested for the game. These are characters that got a huge fanbase and were once beloved nintendo characters but for various reasons fell into obscurity despite people really wanting them to show up again.

when geno had a minor cameo in the mario and luigi rpg games, i was thrilled he wasnt forgotten. people desperately wanted K Rool to show up somewhere in returns or tropical freeze. Banjo-Kazooie feel like they are essentially being held prisoner at this point.

So not only do these characters have large fanbases, their fans have also not forgotten them despite all the odds and really feel smash is the safe haven to rescue them and keep their legacy alive and relevant for years to come.

I Genuinly don't Kid Icarus would have gotten a revival hadn't Sakurai done it himself. Earthbound, Fire Emblem and some old stuff might have gotten more attention. But Where is the Ice Climbers revival? Duck Hunt? more little mac? Smash might be able to revive characters but it hasn't really shown that it revives franchises.
It's not lack of Smash appearance that stops Rool from being in DK games, it's because the developer don't want to use him.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

My gripe with Isabelle is that she was an assist trophy in 4, and I'm not one to jump on the "Holy, we didn't see her at E3, that must mean she's in!" when we're still missing probably 30 assist trophies.

While this is technically true. Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises now, it's fanbase is rabid and intensely waiting the next proper installment, and Isabelle has maintained a presence in not only it's advertistment, but also Nintendo as a whole's advertisment, however a majority of people have written her off as not happening because ''she's cute I don't wanna hurt her" or ''she's not a fighter."

Which are both invalid reasons considering half the roster is cute and half of them you would never actually want to hurt and half the roster aren't naturally fighters either.

 

[Billybae10K]

Is it bad that I really hope we don't get another "uuu wacky unexpected character!" reveal?

Duck Hunt? Great. Bowser Jr? Cool! Wii Fit? Eh?? The gimmick is fun and Wii Fit is unique but in Smash 5, where every character slot is precious and lots of people have their hopes and dreams on the line, having a random character put in for no other reason than being random feels super lame, like the novelty wore off when we got R.O.B., plus Wii Fit is so tied to her gimmick of having no disjoints that she's a really bad character too. As much as I appreciate these fun ideas, I can live without Excitebike guy, or Balloon Fight guy, or the personification of the DS charger turned into a fighter, and would be much happier with a character people are actually asking for.

Is it bad that I'm actually intrigued about how a personified DS Charger could work as a fighter? Can we get a moveset up in here?

 

[MattOnwheels]

There's no need for any of this. If it really hurts you that much?

Remember this is a fanbase who thinks a newcomer from a still rising and growing series like Xenoblade is more of a given than Isabelle from Animal Crossing who practically took her franchise over and became it's face after only one game.

They also think Decidueye is one of the most popular Gen 7 Pokemon around and we've shown that wrong many times by saying it's actually Rowlet and you can't round up like that.

They don't really speak for reality a lot.

Don't let what people say here get to you.

To be fair I said that all in fun.

Even so, this notion of "X can't be in Smash" is now old hat. You'd think this line of thinking would have died back in Brawl with Solid Snake

 

[Will]

more little mac? Smash might be able to revive characters but it hasn't really shown that it revives franchises.

I'm pretty sure Little Mac's last game in the Wii one, the dude literally retired at his endgame. If we get a new Punch-Out!!, I'd be surprised if it was Mac coming back again and not the dude from the SNES game or something.

 

[Honest Slug]

Ridley and K. Rool aren't the same though for a number of reasons with the biggest being that Ridley has been around since the first game and has been in all the major outings and remakes except Prime: Echoes. K. Rool hasn't had a role in a non-spin off game since DK64 which is almost two decades now. Ridley has been a glaring omission since Melee while K. Rool's last peak of relevance was around the release of Brawl. I'm not saying it won't happen but if K. Rool gets in, it's overwhelmingly going to be because of fan demand because he hasn't been a DK series icon in a long, long time.

The reason RiIdley got in was fan demand, not relevance. Despite his relevance Sakurai always denied him due to his size. He has said the reason he got him to work was due to the massive fan requests.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Still, K. Rool is widely popular with probably a high number of ballot votes casted in his favor. He’s been highly requested since the start and has a sizeable following. If I am correct in believing that this Smash game is indeed the Ultimate Smash game (and with the inclusion of Ridley), then it’s probable that Sakurai may be more inclined to include highly requested characters that he skipped on in the past.

In his favor...that rings a bell....

I guess the hunger games can be applied to Smash.