Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

The whole thing with Toon Link on the Phantom Train makes this irrelevant.

Well, you can actually interact with Tingle unlike Toon Link

 

[Luminario]

The whole thing with Toon Link on the Phantom Train makes this irrelevant.

True, but has a fighter ever removed a part of the actual stage by being in battle as opposed to a background element?

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

The worst part about being a Zelda fan is knowing that IF, and that's a big if, the series ever gets a new character instead of being ignored all the time, it will be Tingle

Tingle was apparently already disconfirmed unless we have another Alfonzo on our hands.

 

[Shroob]

Is there anything wrong with nostalgia?

Smash Bros. is a video game where the entire appeal is built around nostalgia

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

True, but has a fighter ever removed a part of the actual stage by being in battle as opposed to a background element?

Well, no, but even then, we have multiple links and marios running around, and considering Tingle's Toon form is more popular than his MM form, well, it can still happen.

Of, if we wanna go the alfonzo route, they can have one of the tingle brothers replace him on the stage.

 

[papagenos]

I do think tingles unlikely with or without great bay... the bigger question is really if sakurai wants to make "toon tingle" an assist while tingle is on great by OR if he thought having just tingle on a stage was enough of an inclusion for the character.

 

[Will]

Well, no, but even then, we have multiple links and marios running around, and considering Tingle's Toon form is more popular than his MM form, well, it can still happen.

Of, if we wanna go the alfonzo route, they can have one of the tingle brothers replace him on the stage.

Tingle had no brothers in MM. He just had a dad who hated him.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

Fan favorites are greatly considered and have made it in, even if just the old veterans or Ridley

 

[Pacack]

If you're humoring the concept of treating Banjo and Kazooie and Steve as equals, then you need to reorient yourself and remember that the year is 2018.

 

[Shroob]

Fan favorites are greatly considered and have made it in, even if just the old veterans or Ridley

Of course, but at the same time, people act like certain characters have more 'weight' than others due to something arbitrary like 'has a big fanbase' or 'iconic', or 'legacy'.

At the end of the day, Sakurai gonna Sakurai.

 

[blackghost]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

even as a fan of bayo that isnt really a fair comparison. that had more to do with older fans doubting the immediate impact a newer character could have. honestly would bayo be in smash ultimate without winning a popularity contest? maybe. but its not a "definitely"
if the smash poll had been closed to king k, banjo, and isaac who would have won? not really sure banjo would.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fan favorites are greatly considered and have made it in, even if just the old veterans or Ridley

But there's an issue with that comparison. The old veterans are popular because they were in the previous Smash games, that alone helps boost their popularity. And Ridley's from the beloved Metroid franchise who's arguably been the most requested character in Smash history since Melee came out. Ridley also kept appearing in more games and he even gets referenced by non Nintendo games iirc
EDIT: Meant most requested NINTENDO character, Sonic and Mega Man obviously exist

 

[Pacack]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

Say it louder for the people in the back!

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I agree with this.
I love Sean Chiplock's voice.

He does so good in every role, my personal favorites being Rean in Trails and Taka in Danganronpa, but then again i'm heavily biased for both of those series.

 

[Shroob]

I know I'm repeating myself, but this is K.Rool's issue.

Outside of DK64, he NEVER shows himself to the player until the very end of the game, which makes it hard for the player to identify him as "Oh, he's the guy I need to beat up."

The best villains in Smash always show up constantly to remind the player that "Hey, I'm your roadblock, I don't like you, your mom's smelly."


By constantly showing you the bad guy, it helps the player realize "Oh, this is who I need to beat up. This is my bad guy."

Even Ridley shows up super early in Super Metroid to help give you a motivation as to what you need to do.


K.Rool's issue is because he's never really been anything but "The shadowy mastermind behind it all that you see at the end", he's never really cemented himself in the general gamer's consciousness as "The DK villain."

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

On the subject of background characters potentially existing as fighters, there's one thing I noticed that entertained the notion of Pauline being a possible unexpected newcomer (one of my older dreams): her being present on the New Donk Stage.

While I did think of how she could work as a fighter before, possibly making use of some of Peach's moves (e.g. the parasol) and the toy Marios from the Mario Vs. DK series, her recent exposure in Mario Odyssey has left a great impression on people. Would a song and dance act be her Final Smash? Who knows, but she could easily be removed from the New Donk stage without affecting things too much.

How many people, given the choice, would pick Hades over Medusa for a newcomer? I would

I'd still go for Medusa first. Not only because she is the villain with the most appearances in the series, but would be a two-fer of a new female AND villain inclusion.

Which retro do you think is gonna make it? Excitebike or Mach Rider?

Excitebike is the 9th best selling NES games and a launch title, and the temperature bar is a unique feature that could effect his special attacks. Mach Rider on the other hand probably has more move set potential and used to be a toy back in the 70's.

Mach Rider. I feel like some Falcon and Wario attacks could help in developing his moveset.

Nah it's totally Battletoads with the new game confirmed at Microsofts conference and everything!

I can dream, and I'll take any excuse to get Sean Chiplock to voice in Smash, since he's currently Rash in Killer Instinct

Funky must be in there too, for the battle of the sunglasses people with attitude.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I know I'm repeating myself, but this is K.Rool's issue.

Outside of DK64, he NEVER shows himself to the player until the very end of the game, which makes it hard for the player to identify him as "Oh, he's the guy I need to beat up."

The best villains in Smash always show up constantly to remind the player that "Hey, I'm your roadblock, I don't like you, your mom's smelly."


By constantly showing you the bad guy, it helps the player realize "Oh, this is who I need to beat up. This is my bad guy."

Even Ridley shows up super early in Super Metroid to help give you a motivation as to what you need to do.


K.Rool's issue is because he's never really been anything but "The shadowy mastermind behind it all that you see at the end", he's never really cemented himself in the general gamer's consciousness as "The DK villain."

I'm sorry but I'm having a laughing fit imaging Ridley call Samus' mother smelly. "Your mother smelled like burned flesh. Oh wait, I did that"

 

[Deleted member]

How many people, given the choice, would pick Hades over Medusa for a newcomer? I would

I don't actively want either, but if I had to choose one it'd definitely be Hades because he's such a great and funny villain.
Medusa bores me.

 

[MaestroDavros]

The issue even with a ton of viable stages will then become there being too many viable stages (striking will take forever/become a nightmare).

The idea of what was neutral in the past may very well become counterpick (As an example, FD itself was mentioned during the Treehouse as being more advantageous for characters like Little Mac, therefore not really "neutral") or even flat out banned (vanilla PS1 as I brought up, and Lylat if there really is an option to turn off the stage tilting).

Then more stages become niche when you take things like doubles into consideration. Some stages that are too big (Pyrosphere ironically) might see some occasional use there.

That's why there needs to be a serious overhaul of how stages are picked. Honestly the stage striking system has proven to be incredibly flawed (strikes aren't permanent during the set they are made, the rules encourage the same 1-2 stages to be played, ect.). What should replace it I don't know, but it is nevertheless clear that competitive Smash needs more stage variety.

Really I'm just tired of seeing people gentleman to Smashville or T&C. I think competitors have become too complacent about the mere concept of a slightly different layout, and it actually hurts the metagame because those 2 stages in particular just so happen to be the best stages for some of the highest tier characters. Something needs to be done to encourage a wider variety of stages to be played. It's good for the viewers as it allows for audiovisual variety, good for the competition as it requires players to be good at the game as a whole, not just getting good by learning only 1-2 stages, and it's good for the metagame as it allows more characters/fighters to potentially be used which in turn encourages a more complex and engrossing metagame that would take a very long time (if ever) to "solve". It's the bread and butter of keeping people involved with something for a long period of time without it growing stale.

So long as it's fair, variety should be encouraged with open arms, not rejected.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

K.Rool's issue is because he's never really been anything but "The shadowy mastermind behind it all that you see at the end", he's never really cemented himself in the general gamer's consciousness as "The DK villain."

Well in my opinion he has, but by no effort of his own, and rather by that of smash fans

Which is in and of itself, a problem

 

[papagenos]

Which retro do you think is gonna make it? Excitebike or Mach Rider?

Excitebike is the 9th best selling NES games and a launch title, and the temperature bar is a unique feature that could effect his special attacks. Mach Rider on the other hand probably has more move set potential and used to be a toy back in the 70's.

Mach Rider the fact he/she was an old toy in the 70s even points to him/her being sort of our next game and watch / R.O.B. / Wii Fit Trainer / duck hunt (with the zapper) "hardware" character too.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well in my opinion he has, but by no effort of his own, and rather by that of smash fans

Which is in and of itself, a problem

In fairness, the GBA ports do add new cutscenes with K. Rool in them. Rare may not have been able to afford time to do those in the SNES days.

 

[Enderwoman]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

Forgotten by time how? By not being in a game for a while? I would imagine most Smash fans would've figured out for a while that doesn't really matter at this point, when really the fact that they're still popular to this day and from beloved games in their respective series is proof in itself that they weren't forgotten.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Forgotten by time how? By not being in a game for a while? I would imagine most Smash fans would've figured out for a while that doesn't really matter at this point, when really the fact that they're still popular to this day and from beloved games in their respective series is proof in itself that they weren't forgotten.

Well outside of the reference in Tropical Freeze and the Mii Costume it's been a decade since K.Rool appeared. And that was in a Mario sports spinoff

 

[vaanrose]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

It's pretty telling to me that production on Smash Ultimate started before the Smash 4 DLC was even finished.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

K.Rool is in a weird spot, although I think he'd be really cool to see in Smash i'm honestly not sure at his chances in general, my current theory on the few newcomers we'll be getting in the base game are like fan favorite choices and maybe one or two more 3rd party picks at the moment, but I could be wrong of course.

 

[Will]

Do you think Victory themes are gonna stick back to the old Brawl ones or do you think they'll retouch them this time around? I honestly preferred the Melee Mother one compared to the new one.

 

[Shroob]

Forgotten by time how? By not being in a game for a while? I would imagine most Smash fans would've figured out for a while that doesn't really matter at this point, when really the fact that they're still popular to this day and from beloved games in their respective series is proof in itself that they weren't forgotten.

Let's look at Smash 4 for example.

Besides Megaman and Pac-Man(I think?), and Duck Hunt, every newcomer had been in a game within the last 5 or so years, give or take.

Relevance does play a part, it just does. Nintendo does use Smash to promote their newest games.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I think K.Rools got a decent shot, mostly cause Ridley got in.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If you're humoring the concept of treating Banjo and Kazooie and Steve as equals, then you need to reorient yourself and remember that the year is 2018.

I'd say Banjo and Steve ARE equal. Banjo-Kazooie and Minecraft are not. Steve as a character is not iconic. Banjo as a character is. Banjo-Kazooie as a series is no longer relevant and thus not as iconic. Minecraft as a series is. It's also a catch 22 between old fans and new ones. People who have stuck with Smash since Melee and the general Smash fanbase would prefer to have Banjo. It's also arguable that Ultimate is targeted towards Smash fans and not the general crowd which could tip the scales in Banjo's favor.

We gotta finally take a step back and realize that this Smash is NOT like all the others. There's a reason Ridley is in, there's now eSports friendly mechanics and UI in the game, and that every previous character in Smash history is back. This game may be a celebration of Smash and its fans and not necessarily the grab bag that previous Smash games were.

 

[monadoboy]

Let's look at Smash 4 for example.

Besides Megaman and Pac-Man(I think?), and Duck Hunt, every newcomer had been in a game within the last 5 or so years, give or take.

Relevance does play a part, it just does. Nintendo does use Smash to promote their newest games.

Pac Man had the Ghostly Adventures thing. I remember seeing Ghostly!Pac Man plastered on potato chips and toys and taking a good chunk of DisneyXD's air time (or some channel like that), so Pac was very relevant.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Do you think Victory themes are gonna stick back to the old Brawl ones or do you think they'll retouch them this time around? I honestly preferred the Melee Mother one compared to the new one.

I wanna say a little bit of both? But I can't be sure, honestly i'm still amazed we finally have English Marth, and Ike got an actual good VA (thanks to Heroes).

 

[Murlough]

Is there anything wrong with nostalgia?

Smash Bros. is a video game where the entire appeal is built around nostalgia

Yeah, every Fire Emblem character, Shulk, and the Pokemon are included because of nostalgia. Seems legit.

Someone is gonna argue with me about the Pokemon one if I don't say this, so "Every Pokemon added was relevent at the time of their inclusion," except maaaybe Pichu even though Pichu Brothers was still relatively popular at the time.

Yes, some of the game is meant to be nostalgia based but a much larger portion isn't. Is someone gonna argue Inklings were added because of nostalgia?

Saying Smash takes advantage of nostalgia is fine but "Smash's entire appeal is built around nostalgia," is straight up false.

 

[Will]

I wanna say a little bit of both? But I can't be sure, honestly i'm still amazed we finally have English Marth, and Ike got an actual good VA (thanks to Heroes).

I prefer the old Ike voice, I'll be honest. I hope they give Roy the same type of treatment, it'd be really weird to just have him be the one-off when they gave Marth an English voice.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think K.Rools got a decent shot, mostly cause Ridley got in.

I don't know, Ridley's always been that requested, even the biggest K.Rool fans generally agreed Diddy needed to get in first

 

[Shroob]

I prefer the old Ike voice, I'll be honest. I hope they give Roy the same type of treatment, it'd be really weird to just have him be the one-off when they gave Marth an English voice.

Eh, at least for Roy, it makes sense.

Marth's game has been out in America and Europe(The remake at least), for over a decade now, while Roy's still hasn't.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean...

The ballot is right there. At the end of Smash 4 and the start of Ultimate's production.

Daisy had a push in the ballot.

Ridley fans still voted for him in the ballot despite him being a stage hazard.

Geno was being pushed by his fans through the ballot he got a Mii Fighter costume.

K. Rool was getting pushed by his through the ballot he got a Mii Fighter costume.

Like.....I mean...it's really not that hard to see why some characters might be in a bit of a better place this time than last time.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I prefer the old Ike voice, I'll be honest. I hope they give Roy the same type of treatment, it'd be really weird to just have him be the one-off when they gave Marth an English voice.

I think Adkin's had good grunts but I can hardly take him seriously whenever he speaks in Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn (not that those games had any better VA's though besides maybe Shinons for the one line he does give), however that is just my opinion, sorry I stated it so roughly haha.

I also hope Roy gets Ray Chase since he's noted to have been a fan of Roy in Melee so him voicing him now in Ultimate would be kinda cool.

Shame Cloud is still stuck being in Japanese from what I've heard.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

K. Rool's most recent source of media was the references made in both Smash Bros and TF, with one being an entire costume based on the character. He is most definitely not unlikely.

The niche argument falls flat when characters like Ice Climbers were added, and if we want to use not coming in until the finale as an excuse, why is Bowser and why was Bowser considered the most iconic villain in gaming when most of his portrayals have him show up as the final boss only in the main games and people constantly butcher his name as "Browser"?

I don't think we should write him off for pure conjecture like that. He may not be the most recognized character, but for the people who have played the older games. he's a nostalgic, insane goofball.

 

[KMDP]

No, but a lot of people on Smashboards act like a lot of characters that they advocate(K.Rool is super guilty of this), are gaming superstars, when in reality, they've been mostly forgotten by time.

I think the biggest wakeup call for Smashboards should have been the end of Smash4's DLC.

We got Bayonetta, a character that most people didn't even consider, when people were soo ****-sure of themselves that it'd be someone like K.Rool or Wolf.

Exactly the sentiment I stated earlier.

Spoiler

'High Level' Gaming Icons IRL: PAC-MAN, Mario, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Pikachu, (possibly) Charizard
"Lower Level" Gaming Icons IRL: Luigi, Peach (/Daisy), Bowser, Yoshi, Link (possibly as "Zelda"), Tails, Dr. Robotnik, Megaman, Cloud, Snake, Lara Croft, Master Chief, "That guy from Minecraft"
"Meme Level" Gaming Icons (related solely to Smash): Marth, Roy
Gaming Icons according to Smash Fans: King K. Rool, Ridley, Isaac... etc.

Your gaming icon is not the public's gaming icon, always remember that.