Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

[ballot]

That's a baseless claim, we know nothing of the ballot results.

 

[Enderwoman]

Well outside of the reference in Tropical Freeze and the Mii Costume it's been a decade since K.Rool appeared. And that was in a Mario sports spinoff

...I know. Is that still any reason to discount him or any older characters? No, it's not.

 

[Shroob]

K. Rool's most recent source of media was the references made in both Smash Bros and TF, with one being an entire costume based on the character. He is most definitely not unlikely.

The niche argument falls flat when characters like Ice Climbers were added, and if we want to use not coming in until the finale as an excuse, why is Bowser and why was Bowser considered the most iconic villain in gaming when most of his portrayals have him show up as the final boss only in the main games and people constantly butcher his name as "Browser"?

I don't think we should write him off for pure conjecture like that. He may not be the most recognized character, but for the people who have played the older games. he's a nostalgic, insane goofball.

Anyone can pick up a NES controller and make it to 1-4. It's a fake Bowser, but it's still Bowser.

That, and getting to Bowser in 64 wasn't that difficult at all.

And of course, in newer Mario titles, Bowser is everywhere.


Ice Climbers are also kinda a poor comparison. Ice Climbers are a retro series representative, like Game and Watch, Pit(In Brawl), and Duck Hunt. They're not part of a bigger series, they're there to promote classic Nintendo.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

That's a baseless claim, we know nothing of the ballot results.

Not really a baseless claim.

But okay.

Okay.

We don't need to know the results to understand who might have done well and who didn't.

Ya'll just slept on how popular Bayonetta was within the Nintendo world despite people like me going ''She's coming to Smash sooner or later." even pre-DLC and now ya'll act stunned by the fact she beat people who were apparently kicking ass and taking names in the ballot.

But that doesn't negate it's not hard to have opened your eyes and looked around and saw who was in demand at the time of the Smash 4 DLC wrapping and Smash Ultimate beginning and how THREE of them are already confirmed newcomers.

 

[Deleted member]

I know I'm repeating myself, but this is K.Rool's issue.

Outside of DK64, he NEVER shows himself to the player until the very end of the game, which makes it hard for the player to identify him as "Oh, he's the guy I need to beat up."

The best villains in Smash always show up constantly to remind the player that "Hey, I'm your roadblock, I don't like you, your mom's smelly."


By constantly showing you the bad guy, it helps the player realize "Oh, this is who I need to beat up. This is my bad guy."

Even Ridley shows up super early in Super Metroid to help give you a motivation as to what you need to do.


K.Rool's issue is because he's never really been anything but "The shadowy mastermind behind it all that you see at the end", he's never really cemented himself in the general gamer's consciousness as "The DK villain."

So what are you saying?
That Lord Fredrik did a better job at that by visibly being seen in the opening cinematic for Tropical Freeze (though obscured by shadow) and clearly being the one that set the events in motion?

Mach Rider the fact he/she was an old toy in the 70s even points to him/her being sort of our next game and watch / R.O.B. / Wii Fit Trainer / duck hunt (with the zapper) "hardware" character too.

a. There is no "hardware" character. That's another fan-made pattern.

b. The "Mach Rider" toy has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "Mach Rider" game. It also wasn't even a Nintendo creation; the toy was made by Hasbro and only LISENCED to Nintendo for distribution within Japan.

 

[Polan]

It's pretty telling to me that production on Smash Ultimate started before the Smash 4 DLC was even finished.

no it didn't

The first proposal was completed in December 2015, back while we were still working on DLC for the previous title. It wasn’t until later that I assembled a team and began development on this new title in earnest.

sakurai finished the first project proposal, production likely didn't start until early-mid 2016 after dlc was over.

 

[Shroob]

So what are you saying?
That Lord Fredrik did a better job at that by visibly being seen in the opening cinematic for Tropical Freeze (though obscured by shadow) and clearly being the one that set the events in motion?



a. There is no "hardware" character. That's another fan-made pattern.

b. The "Mach Rider" toy has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "Mach Rider" game. It also wasn't even a Nintendo creation; the toy was made by Hasbro and only LISENCED to Nintendo for distribution within Japan.

As much as I hate to say it, actually kind of.

By giving the player an idea of just who they need to beat up, it gives them a motivation to continue.

The best kind of villains are the ones that are reminding you that they exist and they're a threat, not the ones who only appear at the end and claim "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME!"


This is partially why Ganondorf doesn't work in Twilight Princess.

Zant was a fine villain, but then you basically threw him away to be "Aha, but it was GANON this entire time!"

 

[TMNTSSB4]

'High Level' Gaming Icons IRL: PAC-MAN, Mario, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Pikachu, (possibly) Charizard
"Lower Level" Gaming Icons IRL: Luigi, Peach (/Daisy), Bowser, Yoshi, Link (possibly as "Zelda"), Tails, Dr. Robotnik, Megaman, Cloud, Snake, Lara Croft, Master Chief, "That guy from Minecraft"
"Meme Level" Gaming Icons (related solely to Smash): Marth, Roy
Gaming Icons according to Smash Fans: King K. Rool, Ridley, Isaac... etc.

Seems legit

 

[Tree Gelbman]

no it didn't

sakurai finished the first project proposal, production likely didn't start until early-mid 2016 after dlc was over.

To propose something one needs to know the contents of something friend.

You don't go to a big time proposal in any medium in the industry of entertainment without knowing what you're doing.

That proposal can change along the way, yes, but you need to know an idea of what you're doing.

Otherwise the people you're meeting are gonna laugh at you and go ''Come back when you have a real idea."

And someone who has been in the industry as long as Sakurai would know that.

He most assuredly went to Nintendo with ideas for not only the veterans coming back, but also newcomers.

 

[papagenos]

Smash has a unique position where it can revive dead franchises and characters. it did this specifically with Kid Icarus after pit was added to smash, other games like earthbound got a huge boost in popularity retroactively after Ness was chosen as one of our first smash characters. Even things like Game and Watch and R.O.B. get waaaay more attention than they ever did before smash, i barely was aware of either of them before hand.

So thats one reason I think characters like K Rool, Geno, and Banjo Kazooie are so heavily requested for the game. These are characters that got a huge fanbase and were once beloved nintendo characters but for various reasons fell into obscurity despite people really wanting them to show up again.

when geno had a minor cameo in the mario and luigi rpg games, i was thrilled he wasnt forgotten. people desperately wanted K Rool to show up somewhere in returns or tropical freeze. Banjo-Kazooie feel like they are essentially being held prisoner at this point.

So not only do these characters have large fanbases, their fans have also not forgotten them despite all the odds and really feel smash is the safe haven to rescue them and keep their legacy alive and relevant for years to come.

 

[Honest Slug]

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons why Bayonetta was chosen for Smash 4 DLC over others was that they wanted to save some of their big guns for Smash 5. We still don't know a lot of the top picks, especially in the US.

This is why I never thought Inklings would make it at the time.

 

[vaanrose]

no it didn't

sakurai finished the first project proposal, production likely didn't start until early-mid 2016 after dlc was over.

Development is one phase of production. Pre-production is the first phase. And yes, it started before the DLC was finished.

 

[Pacack]

a. There is no "hardware" character. That's another fan-made pattern.

b. The "Mach Rider" toy has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "Mach Rider" game. It also wasn't even a Nintendo creation; the toy was made by Hasbro and only LISENCED to Nintendo for distribution within Japan.

While I agree entirely on your latter point (Mach Rider as a toy was separate from the game Mach Rider), would you agree with me that legacy/historical retro characters are a thing? I don't consider them to be representative of hardware, but Game and Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt are absolutely an established type of newcomer. Hell, I have a quote from Sakurai on that if you want.

 

[Maxoxpower]

As much as I hate to say it, actually kind of.

By giving the player an idea of just who they need to beat up, it gives them a motivation to continue.

The best kind of villains are the ones that are reminding you that they exist and they're a threat, not the ones who only appear at the end and claim "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME!"


This is partially why Ganondorf doesn't work in Twilight Princess.

Zant was a fine villain, but then you basically threw him away to be "Aha, but it was GANON this entire time!"

you know K.Rool are in other game too?
king of swing / Jungle clibmer was not so popular but fun game and he show up a lot more.

He is big enough to have a street named with his name in a BIG mario game. alongside DK DIXIE DIDDY CRANKY.

HE IS the BOWSER of DK. even smash trophy said so..

 

[Will]

Not really a baseless claim.

But okay.

Okay.

We don't need to know the results to understand who might have done well and who didn't.

Ya'll just slept on how popular Bayonetta was within the Nintendo world despite people like me going ''She's coming to Smash sooner or later." even pre-DLC and now ya'll act stunned by the fact she beat people who were apparently kicking *** and taking names in the ballot.

But that doesn't negate it's not hard to have opened your eyes and looked around and saw who was in demand at the time of the Smash 4 DLC wrapping and Smash Ultimate beginning and how THREE of them are already confirmed newcomers.

I didn't care about Bayonetta though You're flexing so hard for no reason, chill out. We don't know who the ballot winner was, and we can't just assume or make good guesses about who won the ballot. You're forgetting that Shrek could've easily won for memesake, but just because he could've won doesn't mean he would've regardless of if he topped.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Development is one phase of production. Pre-production is the first phase. And yes, it started before the DLC was finished.

It's kinda like people think Sakurai farted every idea he had about Smash Ultimate out right there in the proposal and didn't plot and plan anything before that.

You know basically no understanding of how this all really works.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

One thing on background characters not confirming newcomers. I don't believe this. The only example we have was Toon Link and he was a veteran. Smash loves to make big reveals of it's newcomers and has never revealed a newcomer before their official reveal.

For me Pauline & Tingle are out of the running.

Ridley was one of the most heavily discussed specific conversations on Twitter.

Glad to see this. I really hope Sakurai and his team take notice of the hype around the characters they did add instead of focusing on the negativity.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

I suppose that's true.

However, K. Rool DOES share a few similarities with the baddies strewn about the island. Even being seen as the leader or the king of them is good enough in my eyes.

Remember how iconic DK is and how much the games have sold. Yes, the newer titles also sell well but those villains aren't nearly as consistent as a guy with around near double digits of boss fights in a very beloved and classic series. You could even have the handheld ports which had his fights too. As it stands, he's the most prevalent final boss in the series, and makes up a decent chunk of the final boss fights in general. To argue that he's not somewhat recognizable as the most established DK villain thus far, even appearing it other sources of media like the DK cartoon for a big role, is honestly pretty ignorant and it definitely does NOT lessen his chances, especially when Smash Bros. made him relevant again with said costume what, 2 or three years ago?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I didn't care about Bayonetta though You're flexing so hard for no reason, chill out. We don't know who the ballot winner was, and we can't just assume or make good guesses about who won the ballot. You're forgetting that Shrek could've easily won for memesake, but just because he could've won doesn't mean he would've regardless of if he topped.

I doubt votes for Shrek and Goku were even counted. So when people bring this up I just laugh. It's the ultimate conspiracy theory against Bayonetta. Even when given proof of his claims of her popularity in Europe and how she was top 5 elsewhere, etc, etc.

You still think he lied about the rest of what he said about her just to put her in over other characters or meme characters.

It's one of the most exhausting things this fandom does.

 

[Pacack]

He is big enough to have a street named with his name in a BIG mario game. alongside DK DIXIE DIDDY CRANKY.

And Squawks and Tiny Kong.

Kinda a moot point, there.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

As much as I hate to say it, actually kind of.

By giving the player an idea of just who they need to beat up, it gives them a motivation to continue.

The best kind of villains are the ones that are reminding you that they exist and they're a threat, not the ones who only appear at the end and claim "IT WAS ME THE WHOLE TIME!"


This is partially why Ganondorf doesn't work in Twilight Princess.

Zant was a fine villain, but then you basically threw him away to be "Aha, but it was GANON this entire time!"

Gives me some major flashbacks to Star Fox Adventures final boss too

But hey at least came back for that segment.

 

[Shroob]

you know K.Rool are in other game too?
king of swing / Jungle clibmer was not so popular but fun game and he show up a lot more.

He is big enough to have a street named with his name in a BIG mario game. alongside DK DIXIE DIDDY CRANKY.

HE IS the BOWSER of DK. even smash trophy said so..

A Street named in Odyssey is a throwaway reference at best. He had a rock formation in Tropical Freeze, but that doesn't make him anymore relevant.

The fact of the matter is, his last appearance was a Mario Sports game, he's been MIA for ten years.


I'm a K.Rool fan, but I'm also not blind to see that he's been cast aside.

 

[Will]

You still think he lied about the rest of what he said about her just to put her in over other characters or meme characters.

**** you talking about Willis? I'm just saying we shouldn't assume a full list until Nintendo themselves reveals it or it just stays in the abyss of the unknown.

 

[papagenos]

So what are you saying?
That Lord Fredrik did a better job at that by visibly being seen in the opening cinematic for Tropical Freeze (though obscured by shadow) and clearly being the one that set the events in motion?



a. There is no "hardware" character. That's another fan-made pattern.

b. The "Mach Rider" toy has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "Mach Rider" game. It also wasn't even a Nintendo creation; the toy was made by Hasbro and only LISENCED to Nintendo for distribution within Japan.

Very true.

However whats speculation without "patterns"? I completely agree smash breaks its patterns constantly we wont always necessarily get a retro rep or a hardware rep OR people say theres too many characters for this series and not enough for that series etc... but like legit theres no other way to speculate but blindly point to characters and hope without assuming there are REASONS behind the patterns.

as in sakurai doesnt have a list to check off that says "retro rep", HOWEVER he does probably think "i should make sure this game appeals to the old nintendo fans as well as the new" and make an effort to sprinkle characters around the nintendo time line into the game. thats not a pattern, thats a purpose that creates a "pattern".

Sakurai HAS stated he felt there were too many fire emblem characters in smash 4 after the DLC... I'm not saying there wont be more fire emblem characters (in fact i think chrom might make it) but what i am saying is its confirmed sakurai is a human being and is aware of how many characters each series gets and how fans may react to that.

So yes with "hardware" its simply a "pattern" where sakurai has chosen characters who have something tied to them thats a physical object from nintendo historty (game and watch/balance board/R.O.B./zapper light gun etc...), could the pattern be broken? of course. Is it still a good idea to speculate based on what hes done in past games, the only thing we have that lets us "peek" into sakurais mind? absolutely.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

A Street named in Odyssey is a throwaway reference at best. He had a rock formation in Tropical Freeze, but that doesn't make him anymore relevant.

The fact of the matter is, his last appearance was a Mario Sports game, he's been MIA for ten years.


I'm a K.Rool fan, but I'm also not blind to see that he's been cast aside.

Very good points across the board, although I am hoping for you guys to get him back in the main series proper someday.

We're getting Mighty and Ray back in Sonic Mania+ so I think anything is possible for the future! Different situations entirely but you gotta keep that hope up.

 

[KMDP]

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons why Bayonetta was chosen for Smash 4 DLC over others was that they wanted to save some of their big guns for Smash 5. We still don't know a lot of the top picks, especially in the US.

This is why I never thought Inklings would make it at the time.

It's entirely possible that when Sakurai said Bayonetta was the top "realisable" character, it was either:
a) They were specifically looking for Third Party characters to use as the Final DLC, so First Party characters are not "realisable" by that metric.
b) The top scorers were "4th party" characters like Goku, Superman and Shrek, so they're not "realisable". And Bayonetta was the top scorer beneath those guys.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

References do in fact make people more relevant if they're noticeable. Mario, DK, Pokemon are all partially relevant due to the constant references in media about them. Any mark in history cements your status as more recognizable.

 

[Makai Wars]

I feel like, for Smash 4 at least, the Ballot was more a publicity stunt/suggestions box for Nintendo. Considering what we know about development time, making a DLC fighter takes ~4-6 months, which means Bayo was chosen relatively soon after the ballot was put up, I'd imagine Sakurai was considering several characters, saw votes for Bayo, then went that direction. We also got Corrin but no one was happy about that initially lol

It's very likely we'll see some of those high placing ballot characters this time around though, we're not getting many newcomers, so it makes sense to have the few newcomers be genuine fan favorites. Personally I already got my Ice Climbers and Inkling, so unless we're getting Shantae and Laharl through a series of miracles I'm pretty content with the roster as is.

 

[dezeray112]

Does the Smash Ballot have any influence on Sakurai's decision with the roster for Ultimate?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Very good points across the board, although I am hoping for you guys to get him back in the main series proper someday.

We're getting Mighty and Ray back in Sonic Mania+ so I think anything is possible for the future! Different situations entirely but you gotta keep that hope up.

Well Sonic Mania is made by hardcore Sonic fans who earned SEGA's trust with fangames. Mighty is incredibly popular in the hardcore fan game/hack community

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

One thing on background characters not confirming newcomers. I don't believe this. The only example we have was Toon Link and he was a veteran. Smash loves to make big reveals of it's newcomers and has never revealed a newcomer before their official reveal.

For me Pauline & Tingle are out of the running.

Yeah, I suppose it's a bit early for her, the remaining Mario slots are probably taken for this installment anyway. The arguments in favor of Tingle make no sense, since he acts as a PLATFORM, which is kind of important in a stage.

 

[CroonerMike]

I can't wait till K. Rool gets in and everyone says "b-but he's not been in any r-recent games?!? How?! Where is R-Rayman?"

 

[monadoboy]

you know K.Rool are in other game too?
king of swing / Jungle clibmer was not so popular but fun game and he show up a lot more.

He is big enough to have a street named with his name in a BIG mario game. alongside DK DIXIE DIDDY CRANKY.

HE IS the BOWSER of DK. even smash trophy said so..

Big enough to have a super small cameo in a game doesn't sound "big enough" at all. That kinda makes him sound super irrelevant.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Do you think Victory themes are gonna stick back to the old Brawl ones or do you think they'll retouch them this time around? I honestly preferred the Melee Mother one compared to the new one.

I want everyone to have a unique victory theme but dreams are dreams I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

Does the Smash Ballot have any influence on Sakurai's decision with the roster for Ultimate?

Judging by the project plan's timing, probably.
Though only time will tell.

 

[Shroob]

I can't wait till K. Rool gets in and everyone says "b-but he's not been in any r-recent games?!? How?! Where is R-Rayman?"

Trust me, I WANT K.Rool in, but Nintendo apparently doesn't want him in any DK stuff anymore.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I can't wait till K. Rool gets in and everyone says "b-but he's not been in any r-recent games?!? How?! Where is R-Rayman?"

I mean, I used tk supprt K.Rool but am now indifferent, though a close friend of mine loves DKC so I'll be happy for him that he gets his Ridley reveal, I caused noise complaints at that reveal

 

[Deleted member]

While I agree entirely on your latter point (Mach Rider as a toy was separate from the game Mach Rider), would you agree with me that legacy/historical retro characters are a thing? I don't consider them to be representative of hardware, but Game and Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt are absolutely an established type of newcomer. Hell, I have a quote from Sakurai on that if you want.

I would agree, though I also feel it's sort of coincidence since the three are established as "surprise characters" foremost. We don't yet know the full scope of what it means to be one aside from simply being kept as much of a secret as possible until release and people unlock them, but coincidentally all three have historic value and come from the NES era or earlier.
We won't really know if that trend will continue until we know of more newcomers, though.

 

[Honest Slug]

It's entirely possible that when Sakurai said Bayonetta was the top "realisable" character, it was either:
a) They were specifically looking for Third Party characters to use as the Final DLC, so First Party character's are not "realisable" by that metric.
b) The top scorers were "4th party" characters like Goku, Superman and Shrek, so they're not "realisable". And Bayonetta was the top scorer beneath those guys.

These are likely possibilities too. Really we know very little about the ballot's results so everything is conjecture and theory.

I'm just thinking from Sakurai's perspective, and with Smash 5 probably on his mind around the ballot's end,If I were him I'd want to hold some of the most requested newcomers off for Smash 5 to generate more excitement.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Also, what classifies as retro? From what I recall, G&W was a "retro" character despite his series' last game being 10 years before Melee. Ice Climber was 16 years before Melee. If that's the minimum amount of time, then K. Rool may also be considered retro at this point as he fits somewhere between there.