Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Sharkarat]

"This character I want that hasn't been in a game in 10 years is a retro character so that have an excuse to predict him" is probably one of the worst pattern related grasping of straws.

yeah im not necessarily saying every character that gets in smash gets their own, or gets back into their own, series again. But what i am saying is that smash preserves them and their legacy whether or not they get anything new outside of smash they are forever a part of smash and their impact on nintendo and gaming is preserved and acknowledged and their fanbase can continue to grow.

This can revive a series or get the character back in somewhere (Amiibos gave mario maker costumes and such) it doesnt necessarily need to be anything more than having them in smash but somehow getting in smash seems to be the bar that the character is still alive and recognized.

Yeh, my comment comes from a place of annoyance from the "add to smash to get him back to his own series". It's no problem wanting someone in smash, but that's Smash. It's massively overstated how much it effects the characters future outside of smash.

I fail to see why K. Rool would be ignored for being old when DK and Diddy get many moves from DK64, including their final smashes.

A few moves to fill movesets is completely different than a character.

 

[Pacack]

Yes, they are now the same.

In what manner?

K. Rool is not some forgotten villain. He is and will always be the big bad of most DK games.

Can you provide evidence for this claim?

Even if he weren't, it wouldn't hurt his chances one bit.

How do you know this?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Number of games she shows up in, actually. At least no one is asking for Orcos.

But sadly nobody is asking for Pandora or Thanatos

 

[Will]

the super punch-out!! protagonist IS little mac despite being blonde and looking vastly different from our usual little mac.

Some claim the producers of the Wii version state he isn't, but there is no source. Though I don't recall Mac's name being seen on SNES promotional material either. I want a Glass Joe game tbh, I wanna see him rise to the top. If I know one thing I know that he canonically defeated Bruiser "through an accident".

 

[Shroob]

Okay off the topic of K.Rool.

**** equipment.

I hope it never comes back.

I tried to 100% the 3DS's notices, and got hung up looking for negative effect equipment for weeks.

 

[papagenos]

Some claim the producers of the Wii version state he isn't, but there is no source. Though I don't recall Mac's name being seen on SNES promotional material either. I want a Glass Joe game tbh, I wanna see him rise to the top. If I know one thing I know that he canonically defeated Bruiser "through an accident".

well if we got that hypothetical punch out game where mac trains a new rookie and every boxer the rookie fights is the protege of one of macs former opponents i would LOVE to have the final boxer you fight be glass joes protege. Glass joes being a lousy boxer but one heck of a coach would be comical.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

A few moves to fill movesets is completely different than a character.

Fair point

That said, I think every should stop trying to force their opinions on how likely a character is going to make it in onto one another. It's not like it will really change the end result whether you choose to believe K Rool's absence will affect his chances or not.

 

[Will]

Okay off the topic of K.Rool.

**** equipment.

I hope it never comes back.

I tried to 100% the 3DS's notices, and got hung up looking for negative effect equipment for weeks.

Equipment should be removed, but I quite liked the concept of custom moves. I've always wanted custom moves to be applicable to For Glory stuff without the equipment, because it could shape up a lot of fights I believe.

 

[Troykv]

I would like to see more Mii Customes; they're fun :3

If Micaiah isn't playable Can I at least get a Micaiah Custome?

 

[Sharkarat]

Fair point

That said, I think every should stop trying to force their opinions on how likely a character is going to make it in onto one another. It's not like it will really change the end result whether you choose to believe K Rool's absence will affect his chances or not.

Or maybe some of us think it's fun to argue/debate how likely we think a character is.

 

[KMDP]

If my wanted characters don't get in, I'll be disappointed for about... a day.

Like, Isaac is my top wanted character, the rest besides Vaati (who I don't see as likely since he hasn't been seen since 2004 and has competition from other, more recent Zelda characters) are all third parties.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Numerous websites and sources have conducted "Best of" lists and the like regarding Nintendo villains and K. Rool has made his name known among several of them as well. The outcry isn.t just from fans, as entire company of former Rare employees have campaigned for the guy as well. Playtonic Games, anyone?

But yeah, whatever. People can believe what they want.

All I ask in this game is that we get an Adventure or Story Mode, or at least something to keep my attention grabbed other than Classic Mode.

 

[Pacack]

That said, I think every should stop trying to force their opinions on how likely a character is going to make it in onto one another. It's not like it will really change the end result whether you choose to believe K Rool's absence will affect his chances or not.

I understand what you're trying to say, but this is a forum for speculation.

The entire point of this thread is to debate what is and isn't going to affect a character's chances.

It doesn't affect what Sakurai will do or has done, but we have every reason to speculate about this.

 

[MattOnwheels]

If it's any consolation he's amazing in Aces.

View attachment 149460

Yes! Yes he is! and that's exactly why the people who say he has no personality or lots of fans are wrong.

I'm not denying Waluigi has genuine fans, I'm saying people "outraged" to the point of harassing Sakurai on twitter aren't real fans of anything. Ridley used to be the posterboy of "NEVER EVER IN SMASH LOL" but now that he and every cut fighter are in, people need to find a new thing to meme about and Waluigi fits the bill.
In Brawl it was Mewtwo and Roy. In Smash 4 it was Chrom and Snake, and this time it's Waluigi. People are just bandwagoning and being hyper obnoxious about it.

OH NO NO NO NO. Waluigi has been a meme FAR longer than this recent boom period. The reason is because as games go on his character has been subtly given more flair. I'd say it started around strikers with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6CLfZl0m88
Yes, those few seconds telling the world to suck his Walu-Weewee transformed him in the eyes of most fans from a creepy weirdo to a hilarious, give-no-****s badass. Whether that was the intention of the animation or not. Nintendo has only recently started to take notice of this, giving him more eccentric mannerisms like in the picture I quoted. The rest of the world is just starting to notice how underrated he's been. Not all of it or even most of it is ironic.

 

[Makai Wars]

Okay off the topic of K.Rool.

**** equipment.

Equipment was a bad meme, I think it was just slapped on there late into development, along with customs which weren't balanced in the slightest (hello, trip sapling)
I can live without Customs being in the new Smash too, I don't think the community will ever really embrace them considering how we treated Miis, even if everything is unlocked from the start.
There's also like a million characters and so i doubt we'll get customs for all of them, and even if we do, I doubt even harder that they'll be balanced.

 

[Pacack]

Numerous websites and sources have conducted "Best of" lists and the like regarding Nintendo villains and K. Rool has made his name known among several of them as well. The outcry isn.t just from fans, as entire company of former Rare employees have campaigned for the guy as well. Playtonic Games, anyone?

And websites were a perfectly reliable indicator of how the ballot went, right?

Right?

 

[Will]

Can we also agree on any type of SSE sequel will likely never resurface in some shape or form? You have almost 70 characters (assuming the final roster is 70 pre-DLC), and you expect Sakurai to fit them all into some big 'ol story when Brawl's was already fairly large (in content) and almost half the roster size at 37? That type of development time would take a long, long, long time if they wanted to get it as gucci as possible.

At best we could settle for another Adventure Mode-esque thing where you had long levels designed after IPs. Maybe something like Gaur Plains, Skyworld, and Magicant as examples of something they could use to fill with enemies. Watch me be so wrong

 

[AreJay25]

Eh, I don't know, I thought equipment was kinda fun to mess around with. Full power Ganon and full speed Mac in particular brought me some enjoyment.

But yeah, if it doesn't come back then I'm not losing sleep.

 

[Makai Wars]

Yes! Yes he is! and that's exactly why the people who say he has no personality or lots of fans are wrong.


OH NO NO NO NO. Waluigi has been a meme FAR longer than this recent boom period. The reason is because as games go on his character has been subtly given more flair. I'd say it started around strikers with this:

Yes...he's a meme, and has been a meme. He's a meme with a following but still a meme at the end of the day.

 

[Zinith]

almost half the roster size at 37?

Did stamina really cripple Pokemon Trainer that much? We can't even consider Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard as separate fighters. Hopefully Ultimate will change that

 

[Sharkarat]

The outcry isn.t just from fans, as entire company of former Rare employees have campaigned for the guy as well. Playtonic Games, anyone?

Wow, the people that made character want him in.

 

[Pacack]

Did stamina really cripple Pokemon Trainer that much?

Yes.

Yes it did.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Eh, I don't know, I thought equipment was kinda fun to mess around with. Full power Ganon and full speed Mac in particular brought me some enjoyment.

But yeah, if it doesn't come back then I'm not losing sleep.

Reminds me in Smash run once, I had a capped speed Shulk and I did speed mondo arts, I gently walked to the side and next thing I knew I was dead.

 

[Murlough]

Well, a game designer probably makes the first proposal, then the higher ups say "you can't do this", "could you do something like this instead/as well?", then they go away and make changes. Not to mention coming up with new things during 2nd+ drafts.

So, yeah exactly what I was saying. It doesn't make sense to assume Sakurai knew the exact roster at the time of the first proposal.

It's possible sure but its more likely that some changes were made since then.

 

[Will]

Did stamina really cripple Pokemon Trainer that much? We can't even consider Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard as separate fighters. Hopefully Ultimate will change that

oops

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Can we also agree on any type of SSE sequel will likely never resurface in some shape or form? You have almost 70 characters (assuming the final roster is 70 pre-DLC), and you expect Sakurai to fit them all into some big 'ol story when Brawl's was already fairly large (in content) and almost half the roster size at 37? That type of development time would take a long, long, long time if they wanted to get it as gucci as possible.

At best we could settle for another Adventure Mode-esque thing where you had long levels designed after IPs. Maybe something like Gaur Plains, Skyworld, and Magicant as examples of something they could use to fill with enemies. Watch me be so wrong

I don't want another SSE since it will just cut into development time for more characters, stages, and gameplay

 

[Shroob]

I don't want another SSE since it will just cut into development time for more characters, stages, and gameplay

I mean....... we have 65 characters and over 80 stages already.

At this point I'd be fine to cut into development time for a SSE.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I don't want another SSE since it will just cut into development time for more characters, stages, and gameplay

This is why I think it'd be a cool DLC option, Sakurai and co could work on it after the game launches properly.

I'd pay for a second SSE. What Shroob said is true too.

 

[Makai Wars]

And websites were a perfectly reliable indicator of how the ballot went, right?

Well I mean....they aren't the BEST option out there, nor the most accurate or anything like that, but Nintendo never gave us the real results so they're all we really have. It really should be noted that one common thread among the thousands and thosands of smaller online polls is that K. Rool placed high in all of them, regardless of website. It's not really CREDIBLE but it at least shows us that there's genuine demand for K. Rool in Smash Brudduhs, relevent or not.

Did stamina really cripple Pokemon Trainer that much?

Heck yeah dude, imagine using Squirtle against somone, let's say Link, Squirtle has a really good MU against Link so he's all you really need to pull out the win. But when Link enters kill %, Squirtle suddenly starts getting all tired because of the dumb stamina system. Now Squirtle is both easier to kill and has a harder time killing and the only way to circumvent this is to switch Pokemon, and both Ivy and Zard lose to Link, now you're in a horrible disadvantage because Sakurai dictated that you can't use a character when you needed him. It's just un-fun.
Link was just an example, I don't know PT's MU charts

 

[MattOnwheels]

In what manner?

Can you provide evidence for this claim?

How do you know this?

Who would you say is the bigger villain of the DK series? The Tiki masks?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So, yeah exactly what I was saying. It doesn't make sense to assume Sakurai knew the exact roster at the time of the first proposal.

It's possible sure but its more likely that some changes were made since then.

The only real change I can see is adding in a specific Gen 7 Pokemon.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Did stamina really cripple Pokemon Trainer that much? We can't even consider Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard as separate fighters. Hopefully Ultimate will change that

If the three come back in Smash 6, they should split them up, as most people are over the novelty of transforming characters, and even Zelda and Samus have abandoned that aspect. That said, I think they should take the Red-Green alternate costume idea and give Charizard to Red, give Ivysaur to Green, and they can bring in Blue to take Squirtle, with said trainers acting as more of a cosmetic aspect rather than affecting how the pokemon play

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Heck yeah dude, imagine using Squirtle against somone, let's say Link, Squirtle has a really good MU against Link so he's all you really need to pull out the win. But when Link enters kill %, Squirtle suddenly starts getting all tired because of the dumb stamina system. Now Squirtle is both easier to kill and has a harder time killing and the only way to circumvent this is to switch Pokemon, and both Ivy and Zard lose to Link, now you're in a horrible disadvantage because Sakurai dictated that you can't use a character when you needed him. It's just un-fun.
Link was just an example, I don't know PT's MU charts

I think the lack of Stamina is so good for PKMN trainer not to mention how good Squrtle & Zard look so far, Ivy is looking kinda mediocre but still 3 characters in one with super fast switching is gonna be hella fun and potentially really good in compeitive play. (just adding to your statement)

 

[Will]

I don't know about K. Rool man, I'm pretty sure Sakurai hates DK.

Spoiler: My Evidence

He skipped Donkey Kong for Link for today's blog post.

 

[Hinata]

Link was just an example, I don't know PT's MU charts

Well, you chose a good example, as according to the SmashWiki, PT does have an advantage against Link.

 

[KMDP]

So, yeah exactly what I was saying. It doesn't make sense to assume Sakurai knew the exact roster at the time of the first proposal.

It's possible sure but its more likely that some changes were made since then.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you and backing up your point (realising that starting with "well," made it sound like I was arguing).
But I will say that Sakurai probably had a very strong idea about who exactly he wanted from the beginning.

 

[Zinith]

Well I mean....they aren't the BEST option out there, nor the most accurate or anything like that, but Nintendo never gave us the real results so they're all we really have. It really should be noted that one common thread among the thousands and thosands of smaller online polls is that K. Rool placed high in all of them, regardless of website. It's not really CREDIBLE but it at least shows us that there's genuine demand for K. Rool in Smash Brudduhs, relevent or not.


Heck yeah dude, imagine using Squirtle against somone, let's say Link, Squirtle has a really good MU against Link so he's all you really need to pull out the win. But when Link enters kill %, Squirtle suddenly starts getting all tired because of the dumb stamina system. Now Squirtle is both easier to kill and has a harder time killing and the only way to circumvent this is to switch Pokemon, and both Ivy and Zard lose to Link, now you're in a horrible disadvantage because Sakurai dictated that you can't use a character when you needed him. It's just un-fun.
Link was just an example, I don't know PT's MU charts

The only character PT hard counters is Ganondorf. He only counters and soft counters the low tiers (including Link btw). And PT is even with some of the low-mid-tiers except Ike and Yoshi who counters PT, and Ness whom PT counters.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'd have liked characters to have alternate movesets kina like Mortal Kombat X but I don't think we'll be getting that with every single character ever.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Mach Rider. I feel like some Falcon and Wario attacks could help in developing his moveset.

If Mach Rider or Excitebike happen, they're gonna be on their bike. Mach Rider probably works better because he can teleport and deteleport his bike for certain animations, but if Mach Rider's not riding his bike, then it isn't really Mach Rider, unlike Captain Falcon.

It's literally what makes him unique to begin with and it's in his name.

 

[Murlough]

The only real change I can see is adding in a specific Gen 7 Pokemon.

I mean yeah me too. I dunno why I'm even arguing about it, tbh. I guess I just dislike people saying "IT WENT DOWN LIKE THIS!" When we really don't know enough to claim that.

People making bold claims without any reasoning to actually believe the claim kinda have a giant red target in my head, despite how relevent or irrelevent it really is in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you and backing up your point (realising that starting with "well," made it sound like I was arguing).
But I will say that Sakurai probably had a very strong idea about who exactly he wanted from the beginning.

I think it probably was the "well" part that confused me. Also your post got 4 likes and mine got 0 so I thought I had worded what I said really poorly.

But yeah ultimately we wouldn't know the difference regardless of when Sakurai determined the "final" roster. I agree he at least knew he wanted all the vets back. Its the newcomers (minus Ridley and Inkling) I'm thinking could have changed.