Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Will]

Unless you brought back Smash Run, I don't think there'd be a point in having the stat aspects of custom characters. However, custom moves may be a reward for doing extra stuff in certain modes. Just an idea though, we don't know what kinda stuff Sakurai is planning for single-player/co-op stuff.

 

[Luminario]

I wonder if those kind of changes are close enough for an echo fighter. They seem to be reaching, but maybe just reusing another characters animation (Kirby's sucking) would still count Birdo as an echo fighter? Idk so far all the echo fighters are almost 1:1 the same character. They're also way more similar with the model too and Birdo and Yoshi do not have the same model....Actually that's a good point against Isabelle being a Echo of Villager, although maybe their bodies are a bit more similar.

The Toadette idea is a good one! Why didn't they do that :\

I'm assuming that so long as Birdo reuses all of Yoshi's attack animations, while extending B's animation time so that the suction effect is out longer and shortening grab's for the shorter range, it should work. How far the definition of echo fighter stretches isn't exactly clear.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Since we're on the topic of custom moves, what if some of the custom moves from smash 4 were re-implemented into echo character's movesets? Custom moves reuse the same animations but have different properties, much like how echo characters have the same attack animations with different properties.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Customs are a cool concept, but I liked the idea of actual changes in moves, not what we got.
ie. Mario can choose from "fireball -> cappy -> hammer", not just a "fireball -> little fireball -> big fireball" deal

Essentially everyone getting the Palutena treatment. That being said, I generally prefer characters having a set moveset. It's just easier to learn and get good with, have standardization of modes easier,etc.

Mii's I'd be OK with keeping customs though, as that's kind of their thing.

 

[Hinata]

I don't think there'd be a point in having the stat aspects of custom characters.

Valid point. However, consider the following.

Sweetspotted Ridley down-B with +300 attack stat.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Valid point. However, consider the following.

Sweetspotted Ridley down-B with +300 attack stat.

That would hit so hard I'd feel it irl. Nobody needs that lmao.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Here's the problem:
There's actually people who think that way about what you just posted.
I've seen and spoken to people who actually believe Sakurai should punish Waluigi fans, and there's no indicator that you were joking or that it was satire until the very end, so naturally people got upset. Please understand why people reacted that way.

Without getting so specific as to derail the thread with something off-topic, the sort of thinking they expressed is disturbingly prominent in contexts much more general than Smash Bros. "I'll screw over myself and innocent people at the slightest provocation just to spite some tiny opposition to show how strong I am" feels like it's rapidly becoming the norm.

Final time: everyone else is stick with 1111. EVERYONE ELSE. Miis getting special treatment is not fair for every other character in the game.

No, it actually isn't anything remotely close to not allowing Ryu to use his special inputs. I can't believe I just read that from you.

You know, I agree, but the list of injustices doesn't stop there:

Spoiler: Tedious list

No other character has this much armor
No other character has limit moves
No other character can stake opponents
" " " can produce a banana peel
" " " can use such a bouncy projectile
" " " can play with a second full character helping them
" " " can put opponents into a state where they take extra damage and knockback, as well as coat the ground in ink that slows opponents
" " " can charge a super move
" " " has hitboxes at the end of his range, making his midrange zoning hit absurdly hard
" " " can just dizzy the opponent
" " " can use a bunch of little helpers
" " " can switch between 3 nearly-full characters
" " " has a resummonable puppet
" " " can actively change his physics and damage
" " " is Ryu
" " " has remotely-detonated C4
" " " can heal independently
" " " can steal items and projectiles
" " " is this fast
" " " is this terrible

And the list goes on. You know, I think I have an idea for how to fix this horrendous game balance:

Spoiler: The Truly Ultimate Ruleset

No Items

Spoiler

Fox Only

Spoiler

Omega Great Cave

 

[Murlough]

EDIT: I have no idea how this post happened. Sorry about that mods. Please delete.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I never cared for custom moves. They're a neat idea but the way they were handled I didn't like. I really wish they'd go down the road of more alternate costumes though. As long as they don't mess with a character's size or hitbox they're a great idea. We need more of them. If they paired alternate costumes as DLC with new fighters I'd be down for that.

 

[Hinata]

I never cared for custom moves. They're a neat idea but the way they were handled I didn't like. I really wish they'd go down the road of more alternate costumes though. As long as they don't mess with a character's size or hitbox they're a great idea. We need more of them. If they paired alternate costumes as DLC with new fighters I'd be down for that.

I hope they just do what they did for the Mii Costumes in Smash 4 DLC, but for other fighters.

 

[Lyndis_]

I'd personally just like custom moves to be gone. They were a unique idea but didn't really have any purpose. A pain to unlock, and when you had them it was a pain to categorize or even remember what customs were on what characters.

They may all be based on existing moves, but I'd rather that time be spent on.. literally anything else. Also, equipment was awful.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Ignoring the fact that Birdo literally can't be a Yoshi echo?

She can't use Egg Lay or Egg Roll, and Egg Toss isn't something she did either. She shoots them from her mouth.

Why can't she?

Egg Lay is the only thing that would need to be reworked, maybe into an egg projectile like in mario bros 2. Egg Roll and Egg Toss work fine for Birdo considering her eggs are nothing short of pink Yoshi eggs.

 

[Lyndis_]

Why can't she?

Egg Lay is the only thing that would need to be reworked, maybe into an egg projectile like in mario bros 2. Egg Roll and Egg Toss work fine for Birdo considering her eggs are nothing short of pink Yoshi eggs.

It's not that Birdo couldn't work as a clone, it's more that if you change any moves (for example, changing Egg Lay to Egg Shoot) would make her not an echo.

 

[Koopaul]

She has no tongue. At best she would be a regular clone like Dr. Mario.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

" " " is this terrible

I'm not even a Jiggs main but this still hit hard. #buffthepuff

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

This isn't 100% related to the current conversation, but man I really hope Daisy isn't as "Echo" as Dark Pit. I really hope she has different properties on most of her moves like Lucina.

 

[Troykv]

Ironically I think this ended up actually helping his popularity. I never felt like people were that enthusiastic about Chrom compared to other FE characters, but it seems like the "Chrom lying on the ground" meme may have actually endeared him to more people.

Yeha, I think he would ended up meme'd his way into the Echo Fighters xDU

 

[Poopyhead]

Though I don't want Custom Moves I would like some way for attacks' color changes to be implemented. Like how Ness had different colored PK Thunders depending on which custom he was using.

Give me a Pichu with purple thunder or something! Won't happen, but it would look cool.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

It's not that Birdo couldn't work as a clone, it's more that if you change any moves (for example, changing Egg Lay to Egg Shoot) would make her not an echo.

I have no opinion on this, but couldn't you just make it the same animation but throwing a projectile in? It seems like she could make exactly the same motion Yoshi does when he sticks his tongue out, but she could shoot an egg instead of extending a tongue. I'm pretty sure that's still within echo parameters given things like Doc's pill physics in Melee.

 

[Enderwoman]

I'm not even a Jiggs main but this still hit hard. #buffthepuff

It has been 3,792 days since Jigglypuff has been a good character.

 

[Arcadenik]

Since we're on echoes here, Daisy should pair up with Toadette instead of a blue Toad, assuming she's not playable as an alt or otherwise. They're both known for their spin-off appearances and I think it would have been a little more suitable having the spin-off queens fight together.

Yeah, it makes sense.

But some optimistic people say it probably means Toadette is going to be a Captain Toad alt.

 

[Lyndis_]

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but I just hope in general echoes are more different than the fighter they're based off this time around.

I don't mind them having the same moves, but I'd like to see actual changes with how they play. Dark Pit's frame data was nearly identical to Pit's and the arrow changes were probably the only actual significant difference in the entire moveset.

I'd really like to see different archetypes with the same moveset. A slower, stronger version of a character is vastly more interesting than "This character has no sweetspot here, but is otherwise nearly identical.

 

[Will]

Birdo's Egg lay isn't much different, you just get SUCCed in and you probably get shot out the same mouth.

 

[Yonder]

Honestly I'm on the fence about custom moves being removed. On one hand, they were a LOT of fun to **** around with. On the other hand, unlocking them was such a chore, I don't think I'd want to go through that again.

Should have them all unlocked. I mean, we are going to unlock 50+ characters, I think that satiates my unlocking craving.

Not...1500+ customs or whatever the math would be now.

Or at least being able to buy a characters customs with coins all in one package if you don't wanna do it traditionallly.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I have no opinion on this, but couldn't you just make it the same animation but throwing a projectile in? It seems like she could make exactly the same motion Yoshi does when he sticks his tongue out, but she could shoot an egg instead of extending a tongue. I'm pretty sure that's still within echo parameters given things like Doc's pill physics in Melee.

But Doctor Mario isn't an echo...

The three echoes we've seen (well what we've seen of Daisy at least) have the same exact moves but with some properties changed.

It seems only Final Smashes can differ. On that topic I wonder if Peach's will change since this game is trying to streamline them and make them a bit more attack oriented.

 

[Chandeelure]

I hope we get more Boss Themes and epic music in general this time.

Happy level 1 and grassy terrains music is nostalgic and cool, but doesn't really fit in a fight.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

I hope we get more Boss Themes and epic music in general this time.

Happy level 1 and grassy terrains music is nostalgic and cool, but doesn't really fit in a fight.

With Ridley now a playable character, I expect to have about 4 (or more) remixes of his boss theme in this game.

 

[Lyndis_]

But Doctor Mario isn't an echo...

The three echoes we've seen (well what we've seen of Daisy at least) have the same exact moves but with some properties changed.

It seems only Final Smashes can differ. On that topic I wonder if Peach's will change since this game is trying to streamline them and make them a bit more attack oriented.

I believe they're referring to Melee Dr. Mario. Would they count as an echo?

 

[Graizen]

The best theory about Smash Switch on Twitter:

Kratos and Master Chief will be in the game.
Haha, the internet would explode.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think another reason we may not be getting customs is because they've made putting all the characters back in the game a priority, and that probably takes a metric ****-ton of dev time that would've otherwise been spent on something like customs. Also, the roster might actually be too big for customs. This is entirely speculation, though.

 

[Koopaul]

In Melee, Dr. Mario would be an echo I think. I think he would still be considered an echo if it weren't for Mario using his FLUDD.

 

[StrangeMann]

With Ridley now a playable character I expect to have about 4 (or more) remixes of his boss theme in this game.

Metroid prime meta Ridley theme
Brawl Ridley theme
New Ridley theme in his character video
What would be the fourth? Other M?
We know bowsers mario 3 theme is getting a remix, which is nice, but what about ganondorf?

 

[Nebunera]

I don't mind customs coming back, as long as it isn't too hard to get them. I also really didn't like the equipment, it was only fun playing full bruiser Ganondorf.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Metroid prime meta Ridley
Brawl Ridley theme
New Ridley theme in his character video
What would be the fourth? Other M?

I'm guessing fourth would be one of the Proteus Ridley themes. Other M would work too.

 

[Murlough]

Again. Do you have any reason for it not being fair other than because you don't like it?

Or rather, since fairness is so subjective and especially in a fighting game where some characters are inheritely more viable than others..

Do you have a reason, or proof, that it is unbalanced or gives a Mii player a significant advantage over, let's say, someone playing Mario?

Miis are a special case as their custom moves work regardless of the setting, and this "special treatment" is quite possibly the least important thing ever and doesn't say anything about the balance of the game other than how you feel about Miis using "customs" while no one else is. If it isn't about /competitive/ fairness, it doesn't hold any weight in a discussion about competitive ruling.

I'll give you one more because I don't like the idea of people thinking I got off to hide with my tail between my legs.

First of all, its actually hilarious that you think no one agrees with me. If that were the case Miis would use customs. I don't make the rules.


Jokes on yall I'm just the only one dumb enough to try arguing against the vocal minority.

 

[MBRedboy31]

So, about people banning Miis completely, doing that sounds kinda like if someone were to say:
“It’s so unfair that Pit mains have the option to switch to a different set of specials (Dark Pit)! My main doesn’t have that option! So, we need to ban BOTH Pit and Dark Pit.”

I’d like custom specials to return, but mainly if they are implemented better (they really, really need to be selectable from the CSS for both casual play and competitive play, nobody wants to have to go back to the customs menu every single time they want to try a different combo.) I won’t mind too much if they’re gone, though, although, it looks like Miis may still have them, which is nice, they are supposed to be extra customizable.

 

[Koopaul]

We're still using the term "Proteus Ridley" even though the game files don't actually refer to him as that?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I believe they're referring to Melee Dr. Mario. Would they count as an echo?

If I recall rightly, Dr. Mario has different fall and walking speeds than Mario, among other moveset tweaks. So I think he would not be considered one.

 

[Hinata]

We're still using the term "Proteus Ridley" even though the game files don't actually refer to him as that?

Once a term is coined in the minds of a community, it's hard to get them to stop using it.

 

[StrangeMann]

Does anyone know whether the crowd chant in this video is Ridley’s or Zelda’s? What is the crowd saying?

Roughly 55 seconds in.