Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

In order to give everyone a better idea of Decidueye's chances, I made a list of pros and cons. Feels like I did a decent job of capturing everything.

Pros

• Is a Pokémon from the current Gen.
• Is a starter Pokémon, making it more iconic than other Gen VII Pokémon.
• Is a grass type - the last of the three starter types needed to complete the wheel.
• Would be an archer character, and Smash has very few characters with a moveset that makes heavy use out of a bow.
• It's first evolutionary form, Rowlet, is extremely popular. Possibly the most popular of the three starters.
• Was playable in Pokken. Sakurai could get inspired by its appearance and make Decidueye a character in Smash.
• Has notable fan support from the Smash community to become a character.

Cons

• Has questionable timing, as Smash Switch will be released extremely close to the next Pokémon game.
• Not advertised nearly as much as other notable Gen VII Pokémon, namely Mimikyu, Lycanroc, Incineroar, and some Ultra Beasts.
• Has a lack of anime relevance. Over 74 episodes into the show, and Decidueye has only made a single appearance, owned by a random trainer.
• Ash's Rowlet is the comedic relief starter. Based on previous series, these starters typically don't evolve (Piplup, Oshawott, Chespin).
• *Arguably the least popular of the three final evos in Japan.
• Was playable in Pokken. Sakurai may try to be more original by adding a different Pokémon.

*(Source: https://i.imgur.com/OptIIYv.jpg and https://i.imgur.com/ITRfhXV.jpg)

 

[Murlough]

Scoliosis Jones : While I do see Mimikyu appearing in some form, I just don't see it making the cut as a playable character. But I do see it having potential as an enemy in Smash Run or Adventure mode, especially if the Disguise ability protects it from a fighter's attack damage for a while.



Sadly, Pokken Tournament gave Jigglypuff and Greninja the middle finger, so I don't think a Pokken Tournament appearance helps Decidueye very much, if at all. And considering Rowlet's popularity in the 7th generation, it would just be criminal if Rowlet doesn't get an appearance in some way.

I didn't say it would help him get into Smash. I said it sucks he got a spot in Pokken and is the most likely contender for the Gen 7 spot in Smash Switch, assuming there is one and only one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about reps? Sakurai has actually denied characters due to this factor alone. He didn't want more Kirby characters in Melee due to this. He didn't want to "overrep" his series. He almost didn't put Corrin in because he didn't want to overrep Fire Emblem. It's very much a thing.

Of course, to pretend it's the only factor is ridiculous. It's just one of many, and it's a very real factor for development under Sakurai. To say the least, it doesn't mean he thinks it needs to matter all the time, as we've seen with more Pokemon overall in the series than regular Mario characters(that is, symbol-wise). And so on.

Anyway, as for Ganondorf, I don't think Dead Man's Volley will work out. Scoliosis Jones pretty much explained why. Balance is impossible to make work right. It's not designed for a regular fighting game. The move is clearly designed for 1-on-1 3D(third person perspective) or 2D overhead battles. This is far harder to translate into a side scrolling design. Heck, I don't think it's even appeared in a 2D side scrolling section in all of Zelda. There's a reason for that. I would like him to have some updates. Like using his sword for a few attacks. Like his up air. Otherwise, he feels really good to play as, emphasizing the Power portion.

As for Zelda reps, the Champions really don't stand out from one another compared to what we've had with Pokemon. There's no question that promotional-wise, certain Pokemon(even the starters) vastly edge out others. Charizard way edges out Blastoise and especially Venusaur to a severe degree. That's why the comparison doesn't work. It's also important to remember that the base 3 types were relevant for Pokemon Trainer's gimmick as well. That made some of them stand out. The Champions don't have this particular same point to work with. Of course, we could still get 1, but it's not really simple to figure out which one. There's no promotional stuff to look at. No particular reason to go for one or the other that's notable in itself.

 

[MrRoidley]

About Decidueye's popularity, I always was under the impression that it was singlehandedly the most popular final evolution from Alola? O.O
sure that may be more of a western thing though

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don’t think it’s the concept of reps that gets irritating, really. It’s more of how it’s used in the wrong contexts in the Smash fanbase.

New game in a series? Give it a rep. Retro series? Needs a rep. Series hasn’t expanded in awhile? Well, it simply deserves a rep.

Sure, Sakurai has addressed this. It’s in a different context though, at least I believe. New character will naturally be added from the latest in a given series. A new game will be given a look over older ones because that simply makes sense.

But then it turns into, “Well this series doesn’t have a rep yet!” But that’s not necessarily how it works. Not every series may get a playable character, yet the “reps” argument makes it seem like everything has to get one.

Series get a new character...or “rep”, based on a few reasons. They don’t “get a rep” simply to “get a rep”. I frankly think that’s why I get triggered by the word. It’s used to simply say, “They represent the game”, rather than give a reason why they should be in beyond it.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Anyway, as for Ganondorf, I don't think Dead Man's Volley will work out. Scoliosis Jones pretty much explained why. Balance is impossible to make work right. It's not designed for a regular fighting game. The move is clearly designed for 1-on-1 3D(third person perspective) or 2D overhead battles. This is far harder to translate into a side scrolling design. Heck, I don't think it's even appeared in a 2D side scrolling section in all of Zelda. There's a reason for that. I would like him to have some updates.

I don't see what's so impossible about a glowing ball of light.

If being able to reflect it with normal attacks is too broken, just make it work like every other spherical projectile.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't see what's so impossible about a glowing ball of light.

If being able to reflect it with normal attacks is too broken, just make it work like every other spherical projectile.

Then it misses the point. It being reflectable is the most iconic part of it. That's just a projectile for he sake of it and doesn't do what it's meant to do. It also has stunning properties, but that's part of why it's reflectable in OOT. It's part of the whole move and type of fight.

It doesn't really work correctly. Also, using mods on Smash doesn't show how well it works properly in side-scrolling settings while keeping the move correctly intact in a Zelda game.

 

[Deleted member]

Archer character: Pit/Dark Pit
Trapping moves: DK, Corrin, possibly Inkling depending on what their moveset is
Grass aesthetic: Ivysaur (though gone), Olimar

Not saying Decidueye can't get in because of these or whatever. Just that what you said is objectively false.

Pit/Link shoot arrows for literally one move.
The other trapping characters did slip my mind, but it's still a relatively unexplored niche that would be implemented with a ranged move in Spirit Shackle since Decidueye is an archer.
Olimar doesn't incorporate grass moves into his moveset, he just smacks plant creatures around that fight with other elements. That's not really the same thing that Ivysaur used to do, which Decidueye would.

I'll give you one but the overall point stands that Decidueye would be a completely unique fighter judging from his concept art alone.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Then it misses the point. It being reflectable is the most iconic part of it. That's just a projectile for he sake of it and doesn't do what it's meant to do. It also has stunning properties, but that's part of why it's reflectable in OOT. It's part of the whole move and type of fight.

It doesn't really work correctly. Also, using mods on Smash doesn't show how well it works properly in side-scrolling settings while keeping the move correctly intact in a Zelda game.

A projectile for the sake of it is still better than Ganondorf being Falcon's #1 fan.

It's still entirely possible to make it reflect with attacks, it could start off slow and gradually build speed and power the more it gets knocked around until someone finally bites it. This isn't a concept that's restricted to 3D, you can already knock projectiles back and forth between two Fox's with their reflector out, all it would need is a property change so any move reflects it. The volley stunning characters wouldn't be broken either, Zamus and Corn both have stunning projectiles.

The mod does actually show how well it works, Ganondorf plays like a dream in it, though I'd personally mix the sword and magic.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Hold the debate, boys. Archmagi Sarkus Imperitus is trying to crack this design conundrum with a concept of the move.

This may take a while, but what did your mammi tell ya about watching a boiling pot?

 

[fogbadge]

i have to admit as excited as i am for smash switch i am dreading a little, the one character i have the least happy about being in smash out of every single one is likely to still be there and unlike last time where it was dlc so could ignore this time itll probably be in the base game

i know i shouldnt let it ruin my enjoyment of the game but it is an off putting thought

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I didn't say it would help him get into Smash. I said it sucks he got a spot in Pokken and is the most likely contender for the Gen 7 spot in Smash Switch, assuming there is one and only one.

Most likely seems like a matter of debate. But at this point, the Decidueye dilemma is starting to become a dead horse, so all that we can really do is wait for any upcoming Smash Bros. news.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A projectile for the sake of it is still better than Ganondorf being Falcon's #1 fan.

Disagree entirely. He's the wielder of the Triforce of Power. He is physically stronger than anyone else and is still using magic to attack. It fits better than a poorly thought out move that doesn't represent it in anything but looking like it.

It's still entirely possible to make it reflect with attacks, it could start off slow and gradually build speed and power the more it gets knocked around until someone finally bites it. This isn't a concept that's restricted to 3D, you can already knock projectiles back and forth between two Fox's with their reflector out, all it would need is a property change so any move reflects it. The volley stunning characters wouldn't be broken either, Zamus and Corn both have stunning projectiles.

My point was it is never attempted in the side-scrolling sections of Zelda games. It's not something that's easy to translate properly. But yes, if it can be reflected properly while not making Ganodorf a problem in any way, sure.

The mod does actually show how well it works, Ganondorf plays like a dream in it, though I'd personally mix the sword and magic.

Might've been better to explain how it works instead of just saying it does. Would've helped, heh. Anyway, I think him being a heavyweight that can power through most attacks thanks to his super armor fits him really well too. He's immune to most weak moves in other games, to the point that sometimes only a spin or dash attack can remotely hurt him. Albeit, that's part of regular Ganon's thing, but it's not like Smash separates them as playable characters, so...

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Tbh, change Ganondorf's special moves (minus Flame Choke, which is great as it is) to something more unique and perhaps directly reflect some of his powers in the LoZ series, and I'd hardly even consider Ganondorf a clone anymore.

Though even then I suppose his entire moveset would, at the very least, need to be altered and tweaked to balance around the major changes to his specials.

Still, I don't think it's impossible to change up his special attacks without giving him a total moveset overhaul as well. I really want to think you could change him just a bit more without alienating long time players of the character very much.

 

[Opossum]

There's nothing innately hard to balance about Dead Man's Volley, IMO. My moveset for Waluigi has something very similar in it and there was nothing glaringly weird about it there.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Then it misses the point. It being reflectable is the most iconic part of it. That's just a projectile for he sake of it and doesn't do what it's meant to do. It also has stunning properties, but that's part of why it's reflectable in OOT. It's part of the whole move and type of fight.

It doesn't really work correctly. Also, using mods on Smash doesn't show how well it works properly in side-scrolling settings while keeping the move correctly intact in a Zelda game.

This is how I'd imagine it working. Try your best to 'play the game in your head' and consider every possible angle of using a special move in any Smash battle under any mode. Don't just take my word for it, improvise the concept in your head as appropriate.

Ganondorf sends out the... Volleyball? Sure, we'll roll with it. The launch is a decently-fast speed, and Ganondorf's low cooldown animation makes it easy to fall back, rush down, etc., out of it.

• The Volleyball will detect the nearest character (if more than 1 too close, then RNG corrects the argument to target either) & track them down using the most efficient route. If the target dodges the Volleyball, it will seek the nearest target besides the original opponent or fizzle out after traveling an extended straight line.
• As the Volleyball gets closer to target, its acceleration slow down significantly. The opponent can dodge, block, or take the hit. But if they use a physical or projectile attack, the Volleyball will reverse course back to Ganondorf with slightly increased speed & priority. Additionally, stage hazards, items, & other battle elements can trigger a false-positive on the Volleyball, sending it back to Ganondorf as if the target hit them.
• The Volleyball has 6 stages of intensity, each upgraded from 1 upon deflect. The speed, priority, knockback, & damage values will rise - as well as a slight increase in size by hits 3 & 6. Moreover, the slowdown in acceleration as the Volleyball approaches its intended target will diminish after each hit, ending after 6 where the Volleyball travels at an extremely fast, constant speed. If the hits exceed 13, the Volleyball will be a guaranteed hit in favor of Ganondorf/the last character or element to intercept it.
• The Volleyball's trajectory is the 2nd most valuable property to make it a force to be reckoned with. As the Volleyball keeps getting deflected, its trajectory will be calculated to randomize various segments in the line of its travel, allowing the Volleyball to shift unpredictably until it gets close enough to the target to begin deceleration & home in. The amount of segments & deviation from the straight course increases after each hit until maxing out @ 6.
  
• The Volleyball cannot travel through solid platforms (e.g., won't reach under Final Destination from above, but will move thru Battlefield's tri-platforms) & can be crushed by impassable stage elements (e.g., the toy blocks from the ceiling of Nintendogs.)
• If the Volleyball is absorbed via something like Villager's Pocket, its state will remain as it was, recognizing how many hits it already took until it receives another one.
  
• General rule of thumb: the Volleyball favors the least amount of effort to continue. If it approaches one opponent, another opponent moving inside its path will cause it to home in on them instead.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Hey, everyone! I've lurked here for a long time but I finally made an account.

How much of Decidueye's perceived moveset is something that's actually exclusive to Decidueye and not something Rowlet can also do? Almost any arrow attack can be echoed by well-placed usages of Leafage or Razor Leaf and, while Rowlet isn't part Ghost, it can learn some Ghost-type moves like Shadow Claw. I just have to bring that up due to the fact that Rowlet is the one being more heavily promoted by the anime so far and people aren't talking about its moveset potential.

On the topic of Pokken, since that has been brought up (even though it's unlikely that its picks have much at all to do with Smash's picks,) it's notable that it didn't seem to be in a rush to complete the starter trio; the Wii U version had 3 Fire starters, 1 Grass starter, and no Water starters at all.

Nobody here seems to be even considering Primarina either, despite it being the most popular of the fully evolved starters according to the aforementioned 7th gen Japanese poll. Its lack of legs isn't an issue (look at Driblee in Kirby Star Allies as an example, or at R.O.B.) but the length of its tail could make it have an overly large hurtbox, depending on how it is scaled overall.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Welcome to the 'Boards, MBRedboy31 ! Hopefully you won't mind our community's eccentricities too much here, but I speak for us all when we hope to see more of you as the Smash 5 cycle revolves.

Also, w/o cracking into Bulbapedia for learnsets, the 1st attack I can think of that Rowlet should have no access to is Spirit Shackle, which would make for a novel Neutral Special. Otherwise, most other Grass & Ghost moves should really be taken on there own, since its pretty unnecessary to starve Decidueye of moveset fodder.

 

[JamesDNaux]

A quick merged Ganondorf moveset based on Project Ganondorf.

Spoiler

Neutral Moves
Jab - A burst of dark energy.

Jab (Hold) - Hold attack to charge the dark energy, then release for a bigger burst.

Side Tilt - The same kick Ganondorf already has.
Up Tilt - A fountain of dark energy that throws enemies into the air.

Down Tilt - A low sword thrust.

Dash Attack - A simple running sword swipe.

Forward Smash - The same elbow bash Ganondorf already has... but press attack again to link it into a sword swipe.

Up Smash - Swings sword above his head and finishes with a strike of lightning magic.

Down Smash - A spinning sword move that hits on both sides.

Grab - Ganondorf uses the force his magic to grab opponents from a distance.

Aerieal Moves
Nair - Swings sword around in a circular arc.

Fair - A magic strike.

Bair - Ditto to Fair.
Uair - The same flip kick Falcondorf has.
Dair - The same glorious spike Falcondorf has.

Special Moves
Neutral Special - Dead Man's Volley: Ganondorf throws an orb of light that stuns opponents. Charging the move enough splits the orb, the charge can't be saved.

Side Special - The tried and true Flame Choke.
Up Special - Ganondorf enters a dark portal and exits in whatever direction you input, works similar to Pikachu's recovery in that you can extend it slightly by making a sharp turn. The portal causes damage to opponents that touch it.

That should be a nice balance of magic, swordplay, and the brute strength of Smash Ganondorf.

 

[Freduardo]

My best plan to make dead man’s volley work:

Do the move once: it sends the big ole powerful slow moving dodgeable projectile.

Make it so it’s out for a while before it disintegrates.

Do the move while it’s out, use a so good it’s as broken as mario’s Cape in melee reflect/misdirect. It of course works on anyone who reflects it back at him via a reflect move. After each reflect it gets faster and deadlier. And move’s disintegrate timer resets at every reflect.

Easter Egg (optional): Link and Toon link can also reflect only this move with their Smash attacks.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It would be really cool to see Sheriff as the final character reveal followed by an announcement that his game will be released on Nintendo Switch by Arcade Archives.

I didn't think much of his chances because I didn't see a lot of potential in what is essentially a cowboy, but there are a lot of western related toys/games by Nintendo to incorporate into his move set, as well as the unique ability to shoot bullets in eight directions. Possibly even other games like Sky Skipper can be incorporated too.

I can see him being this game's legacy character as the first ever Nintendo character. Possibly adopting that classic cartoon look you see on the arcade cabinets, to make his design true to his age.

Still a 3D model, but with white skin and retaining the cartoony facial features.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Hey, everyone! I've lurked here for a long time but I finally made an account.

How much of Decidueye's perceived moveset is something that's actually exclusive to Decidueye and not something Rowlet can also do? Almost any arrow attack can be echoed by well-placed usages of Leafage or Razor Leaf and, while Rowlet isn't part Ghost, it can learn some Ghost-type moves like Shadow Claw. I just have to bring that up due to the fact that Rowlet is the one being more heavily promoted by the anime so far and people aren't talking about its moveset potential.

On the topic of Pokken, since that has been brought up (even though it's unlikely that its picks have much at all to do with Smash's picks,) it's notable that it didn't seem to be in a rush to complete the starter trio; the Wii U version had 3 Fire starters, 1 Grass starter, and no Water starters at all.

Nobody here seems to be even considering Primarina either, despite it being the most popular of the fully evolved starters according to the aforementioned 7th gen Japanese poll. Its lack of legs isn't an issue (look at Driblee in Kirby Star Allies as an example, or at R.O.B.) but the length of its tail could make it have an overly large hurtbox, depending on how it is scaled overall.

The thing Rowlett loses is the ghost typing and I'm really hoping that's something they play with a lot with Decideueye. Also the Archer aesthetic is completely out the window. While yes Rowlett can shoot a leaf similar to an arrow it won't really work the same way.

I love Rowlett and I think it makes sense for him to be in (everyone assumes it has to be the final evolution of a starter for some reason...) But if that means no ghost type repping I'll be super dissapointed.

 

[Wyoming]

is Pokemon simply going to end up being "every type must be represented!" kind of game? Poison is my favorite type but I don't really care if it is in Smash or not...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

is Pokemon simply going to end up being "every type must be represented!" kind of game? Poison is my favorite type but I don't really care if it is in Smash or not...

It made sense for Pokemon Trainer, due to the whole point of the overall character.

And it's nice seeing different elemental variety on the overall Smash roster. But just adding 'em for the sake of type difference is silly too. It can certainly play a role, and that's fine, but it's ignoring other merits the character possesses.

 

[Pokechu]

is Pokemon simply going to end up being "every type must be represented!" kind of game? Poison is my favorite type but I don't really care if it is in Smash or not...

Well, you're in luck, because Poison actually WAS in Smash!

Now it's Steel's turn! If Steel doesn't make it into Smash 5, then Sakurai is biased and we need a new director!

 

[MrRoidley]

Well, you're in luck, because Poison actually WAS in Smash!

Now it's Steel's turn! If Steel doesn't make it into Smash 5, then Sakurai is biased and we need a new director!

Let's request Dark and Fairy while we're at it as well, come on Samurai!

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Well, you're in luck, because Poison actually WAS in Smash!

Now it's Steel's turn! If Steel doesn't make it into Smash 5, then Sakurai is biased and we need a new director!

Well, you're in luck, because Steel actually IS in Smash!

Now it's Electric's turn!

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Well, you're in luck, because Poison actually WAS in Smash!

Now it's Steel's turn! If Steel doesn't make it into Smash 5, then Sakurai is biased and we need a new director!

uh we already have a steel type in smash tho

edit: damn 'd

Let's request Dark and Fairy while we're at it as well, come on Samurai!

 

[MrRoidley]

uh we already have a steel type in smash tho

edit: damn 'd

that was the joke

 

[Wyoming]

With that said I hope the next big Pokemon is ice type. it's the element we don't really see outside of ICs. Could be fun basing a moveset on ice.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Sheriff interests me as a historical character, but I think he is too obscure. The Game and Watch line of games was a big success, R.O.B. got people in the west to care about video games again, and Duck Hunt is one of the best selling video games ever.

Sheriff's game was a failure in pretty much every way, and hardly anybody remembers/cares about him or his game.

 

[PeridotGX]

With that said I hope the next big Pokemon is ice type. it's the element we don't really see outside of ICs. Could be fun basing a moveset on ice.

It's never happening, but I would like Weavile. Mix a trickster with ice attacks and there we go.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

While a type should never be the reason a Pokemon gets in (I think the grass starter completing the triangle reasoning is bull), it's not unreasonable to want your favorite type to get represented...

Generally people's favorite types are also reflected in their favorite Pokemon. So my top two gen 7 Pokemon I want are Mimikyu and Decidueye and surprise they're also my favorite type lol.

(Unrelated but on the reverse I do think a type should be a reason a Pokemon doesn't get in. Like what would a different electric Pokemon offer that Pikachu doesn't cover? Obviously if they're fighting style is unique, but I'd be wary of adding same typed Pokemon)

 

[SuperMii3D]

Can't Deadman's Volley just be like Dedede's Gordo, but lighter, slower and no gravity applied to it?

 

[Pokechu]

Well, you're in luck, because Steel actually IS in Smash!

Now it's Electric's turn!

i always forget lucario's steel

:^(



Electric, Normal, Fairy, Fire/(Dragon? Mega X), Flying, Psychic, Fighting, Steel, Water, Dark, Grass, Poison

12(13?)/18 types...

we need Rock, Ghost, Bug, Ground, Ice, and (Dragon?).

Smash actually hasn't been bad with displaying numerous Pokemon types.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Sheriff interests me as a historical character, but I think he is too obscure. The Game and Watch line of games was a big success, R.O.B. got people in the west to care about video games again, and Duck Hunt is one of the best selling video games ever.

Sheriff's game was a failure in pretty much every way, and hardly anybody remembers/cares about him or his game.

People might remember the game from WarioWare at least, as the original WarioWare had a fully playable (albeit slightly Wario-ified) version of it playable.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I remember one time I drew Kirby hats for all 151 Pokemon. This was before Gold and Silver came out in the States - back during the 64 days. Those were the days. I would use my Nintendo figurines and plus toys to reenact Smash fight scenes. Mewtwo, Wario, Bowser, and Peach were all newcomers in those mock battles

 

[Cycrum]

Sheriff interests me as a historical character, but I think he is too obscure. The Game and Watch line of games was a big success, R.O.B. got people in the west to care about video games again, and Duck Hunt is one of the best selling video games ever.

Sheriff's game was a failure in pretty much every way, and hardly anybody remembers/cares about him or his game.

On the topic of historical retro reps, are there even any more retro characters relevant to Nintendo's history who could make it into Smash as a playable character?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Sheriff interests me as a historical character, but I think he is too obscure. The Game and Watch line of games was a big success, R.O.B. got people in the west to care about video games again, and Duck Hunt is one of the best selling video games ever.

Sheriff's game was a failure in pretty much every way, and hardly anybody remembers/cares about him or his game.

I've done a lot of research, and when it comes to highly successful Nintendo IPs that include viable characters (So not Nintendogs, Tomodachi, or Brain Age), I've come to find only three that are definitely successful and have viable candidates.

• Splatoon
• Rhythm Heaven
• Excitebike

I guess technically you could count Arms, but that game hasn't been out for even a year and it was well after Smash 5 probably began development. And then there are retro games with only a single installment like Balloon Fighter and Mach Rider.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

On the topic of historical retro reps, are there even any more retro characters relevant to Nintendo's history who could make it into Smash as a playable character?

Balloon Fighter was programed by Iwata so it would be an awesome tribute to him to include the character, who has also been considered before.