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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Jak_spoon

Smash Journeyman
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Y’know, i’m seeing a lot of discussion about how series “need” a character or should get redesigns. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the “redesigns” are suggested because of needing to be relevant rather than making the gameplay better. This is a video game. How characters play matters. To me, a huge Smash fan (it’s been my favorite since 64), gameplay is more important at this stage in the series lifespan.

I do believe Ganondorf could be reworked to be more accurate to his character. I am concerned however, that fans want him to be strong and fast, a recipe for a character that will be overpowered. Canonically, the only person who can beat Ganon/Ganondorf is Link. In Smash, many, many characters including Link would be unable to compete with that.

In that sense, a slow and strong Ganondorf makes more sense because then he is more easily balanced. In addition, I myself love the idea of adding the Dead Man’s Volley. However, how do we balance that? If he uses it, does that make him a sitting duck? If a character deflects it back, is Ganondorf required to hit it back, thus making him easy to rush down? Then, if he's on the heavier side, he'd be easy to combo.

Fixing Ganondorf is not that easy, or at least not a simple fix. I think there are different things they could do, but it's more about balance than making characters resemble their home series selves. It's important for them to be accurate to work. But Smash is not Zelda. Making Ganondorf the same as his canonical self is problematic on a gameplay level.

As far as the Princess herself, I think her aerial attacks could stay somewhat similar to her current build. But I think she could be faster, not have nearly as many sweet spots or sour spots. Give her the Champion abilities.

On a side note, but a related note...we need to talk about expectations. We're getting BOTW Link and have no idea what changes are occurring. We can all say what we expect, but we don't know. If Zelda gets changed, which I believe that her design will (and her old moveset wouldn't even fit the BOTW design, therefore warranting a moveset overhaul similar to Bowser imo), and then we want a Ganondorf overhaul...are we really expecting a newcomer?

Let's be real, the Zelda series characters in Smash need work. A lot of work. If they get fixed it'll be a much needed breath of fresh air. If you didn't know this (even though I think it's obvious) reworking veterans is similar work to newcomers. BOTW Zelda and a refined Ganondorf would be our Zelda newcomers. If you add another, do we really need 3 Zelda newcomers? Especially one that is no more relevant than the other 3 who were introduced with them?

This brings me to my next point...not every game needs a character to "rep" it. This is why I hate the concept of "reps" and sincerely wish people would stop using the term. It implies that characters get in to "rep" things specifically, rather than gameplay. Obviously, characters represent things from their home series, but the way I've been seeing things it has nothing to do with gameplay for a lot of fans. To them it's more like, "Add this character because new game!". That's preposterous. The Champions can be Assist Trophies, in a BOTW themed stage, etc. That is a HUGE jump to say they should or need to be playable.

You're probably now questioning Sheik. She's a rare case in which she was in because of the circumstances, and is retained because she's an incredibly popular vet.

As a fan of Zelda, I think the Assist Trophies are excellent roles for the characters. I can not only appreciate that Sakurai has another job prepared for characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and others, but it helps me understand that not every character is going to be playable. That is an unfortunate reality we need to come to grips with. Obviously, Little Mac and Charizard show characters can outgrow the "non-playable but Smash appearance" role, but obviously not every character will make that jump.

Sorry, wall o' text. Moral of the story: "reps" are dumb, not every character ever will be playable, Zelda series needs work, but needs some real consideration in how to do it.
I don't think you're going to be able to get "reps" to go away. Its a phrase that's grown past its words original meaning. But I get what you're saying and I don't think there was a sentence in your post that I don't agree with. But what you said is like the heart of what bumbs me out. The fact that we shouldn't see a radical change or additions to the Zelda cast. I mean its a lot of work. But it makes it more aggravating when all that additional work has been put in there in the first place because of a rushed job that never saw proper fixes in the last decade. All the while other series are getting a new character each smash game because "Add this character because new game!"

In my opinion characters added to Smash should do two things: Bring fresh ideas to the fighting genre and highlight the great games Nintendo has made. That might not be the best way to phrase it, I'm obviously no word smith but I'll give some examples. Olimar, Inklings, and Ivysaur are great examples of bringing fresh ideas. Only their series could provide the ideas to the cooky ways they would fight. Other fighting series don't have that. Ness is the best example of highlighting great Nintendo games. Its nice to have a character where you can say "You want to know what makes Nintendo special? Look at Ness, try his game Earthbound. Its going to blow you away."

I think that becomes cheap when characters are added as blatant product promotion.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I don't see the issue with including one and not the others, we have charizard and greninja but not their fellow starters. A character being a part of a group shouldn't hold them back.
Smash 3DS / Wii U has pretty much proven that the roster doesn't necessarily need a playable grass-type starter. While the idea of having one is there, there are a few things to keep note of. If Sceptile was implemented, that would surely leave the Blaziken fans feeling angry. And when you look at Decidueye, last I've checked, it's the least popular fully evolved 7th generation starter, while Rowlet is the most popular 7th generation Pokemon overall.
 

Opossum

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Smash 3DS / Wii U has pretty much proven that the roster doesn't necessarily need a playable grass-type starter. While the idea of having one is there, there are a few things to keep note of. If Sceptile was implemented, that would surely leave the Blaziken fans feeling angry. And when you look at Decidueye, last I've checked, it's the least popular fully evolved 7th generation starter, while Rowlet is the most popular 7th generation Pokemon overall.
You say "over all" as if a single poll means anything, ignoring things like sample size and other things that could skew the results.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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Ehn, it really takes a good sense of cohesion when putting Zelda, Ganondorf, or even Toon Link on the operating table. Like, of course canonical strength isn't going to be an accurate source for modelling their movesets & playstyles. Instead, its adapting parts of their canonical abilities to work in a fighting game. Take Ganondorf's Dead Man's Volley. After like 2-3 deflects, maybe its trajectory becomes more uniform for a cleaner hit paired with increased speed, and its 'rate of approach' becomes much less slow & soft? Should we allow the Volley to be 'catchable' up to 7 seconds once its received before throwing back? Before it detonates like a bomb?

Hell, if you wanna get really desperate, just take the Captain Falcon & Fox route of fabricating plausible attacks loosely based on their archetypes & inspirational sources (Captain Falcon's the perfect model for a superhero & martial arts guy, Fox takes elements from kitsune myths).
 

Gumzilla

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If we get a Bowser's Castle stage I hope one of the songs is World Bowser from Super Mario 3D World!
 

Baskerville

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I’m not good at proposing topics of discussion here. Perhaps they aren’t interesting enough. But here’s something for everyone.

Let’s say every Smash 4 character gets an alt costume while characters, like Wii Fit Trainer or Olimar, gets a second one on top of the previous alt costume they had (including Bowser Jr). What alt costumes would characters get?

Here’s mine:
  1. Mario: Referee Mario
  2. Luigi: Mr L
  3. Peach: Sporty Peach
  4. Bowser: Wedding Bowser
  5. Rosalina: Cosmic Spirit
  6. Dr. Mario: Delfino Doctor Mario on Vacation
  7. Bowser Jr: Sunshine Bowser Jr
  8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
  9. Wario: Showman Wario
  10. Link: Barbaric Armor Link
  11. Zelda: Hooded Zelda
  12. Shiek: Yuga Clan Shiek
  13. Toon Link: Outset Link
  14. Ganondorf: Phantom Ganondorf
  15. Samus: Federation Marine
  16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
  17. Kirby: Clay Kirby
  18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
  19. Meta-Knight: Galacta Knight
  20. Fox: James McCloud
  21. Falco: Star fox Assault Faldo
  22. Pikachu: Masked Wrestler Pikachu
  23. Lucario: Korrina Outfit
  24. Charizard: Poke Ride Charizard
  25. Jigglypuff: Wigglytuff
  26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
  27. Mewtwo: Shadow Mewtwo
  28. Ness: Pajamas
  29. Lucas: Masked Swordsman Lucas
  30. Donkey Kong: Boxer Kong
  31. Diddy Kong: Shades and Guitar Diddy Kong
  32. Pit: Classic Pit
  33. Palutena: Psuedo-palutena
  34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
  35. Marth: Sigurd Outfit
  36. Ike: Legendary Ike
  37. Robin: Hooded Robin
  38. Lucina: Masked Lucina
  39. Roy: Eliwood Outfit
  40. Corrin: Summer and New Year Corrin (FEH)
  41. Captain Falcon: Helmetless Falcon
  42. Olimar: Louie
  43. Villager: New Leaf Villager
  44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
  45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
  46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
  47. Shulk: M100 Shulk
  48. ROB: Ancient Minister
  49. Little Mac: Doc’s Uniform
  50. Sonic: Classic Sonic
  51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
  52. Mega Man: Rush Adapater Mega Man
  53. Ryu: Evil Ryu
  54. Cloud: Kingdom Hearts Cloud
  55. Bayonetta: Nude Bayonetta
Man, some of those were a stretch.
:4mario:: Wedding Suit
:4drmario:: Mad Scientist (?)
:4luigi:: Mr. L
:4peach:: Wedding Gown
:4bowser:: Wedding Suit
:rosalina:: Cosmic Witch
:4bowserjr:: Striker Kit
:4dk:: Skylanders DK
:4diddy:: Skylanders Diddy
:4wario2:: D.I.Y Outfit
:4yoshi:: Yarn Yoshi
:4link:: Magic Armour from Twilight Princess
:4zelda:: Princess Outfit from Breath of the Wild
:4sheik:: Shiekah Tunic from Breath of the Wild
:4ganondorf:: Wind Waker Ganondorf
:4tlink:: Outset Outfit
:4samus:: Fusion Suit
:4zss:: Casual Uniform from Other M
:4pit:: Classic Pit
:4palutena:: Classic Palutena
:4darkpit:: Fighter Outfit (Those playable characters from the Uprising muliplayer.
:4kirby:: Yarn Kirby
:4dedede:: Yarn Dedede
:4metaknight:: Yarn Meta Knight
:4pikachu:: Pikachu Libre
:4charizard:: Poke Ride Charizard
:4jigglypuff:: Wigglytuff
:4mewtwo:: Psychic Trainer Outfit (Gen 6)
:4lucario:: Black Belt Outfit (Gen 7)
:4greninja:: Ninja Trainer Outfit (Gen 3)
:4fox:: Assault Fox
:4falco:: Assault Falco
:4marth:: Classic Marth
:4myfriends:: Vangaurd
:4robinm:: Grandmaster
:4lucina:: Yukata
:4feroy:: Classic Roy
:4corrin:: Dark/White Blood
:4falcon:: Classic Falcon
:4ness:: Pyjamas
:4lucas:: Pigmask Commander
:4littlemac:: Doc Louis Outfit
:4shulk:: Makna Set
:4wiifit:: Wii Fit U
:4olimar:: The President's Outfit
:4rob:: Switch R.O.B
:4gaw:: Fire (From the minigame)
:4villager:: New Leaf Villager
:4duckhunt:: Hat and Poncho
:4sonic:: Racing Suit
:4megaman:: Rock
:4ryu:: Hot Ryu
:4pacman:: Ms. Pacman
:4bayonetta2:: Sunday Best
:4cloud:: Kingdom Hearts
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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You say "over all" as if a single poll means anything, ignoring things like sample size and other things that could skew the results.
It's true that the margin of error is there, as multiple polls can potentially oppose each other. Also, the rankings can change as time passes, but so far, I haven't heard of any changes to the 7th generation Pokemon popularity poll.
 

Troykv

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IIn my opinion characters added to Smash should do two things: Bring fresh ideas to the fighting genre and highlight the great games Nintendo has made. That might not be the best way to phrase it, I'm obviously no word smith but I'll give some examples. Olimar, Inklings, and Ivysaur are great examples of bringing fresh ideas. Only their series could provide the ideas to the cooky ways they would fight. Other fighting series don't have that. Ness is the best example of highlighting great Nintendo games. Its nice to have a character where you can say "You want to know what makes Nintendo special? Look at Ness, try his game Earthbound. Its going to blow you away."

I think that becomes cheap when characters are added as blatant product promotion.
I agree! It's about great concepts and great games :D
 

Scoliosis Jones

Kept you waiting, huh?
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I don't think you're going to be able to get "reps" to go away. Its a phrase that's grown past its words original meaning. But I get what you're saying and I don't think there was a sentence in your post that I don't agree with. But what you said is like the heart of what bumbs me out. The fact that we shouldn't see a radical change or additions to the Zelda cast. I mean its a lot of work. But it makes it more aggravating when all that additional work has been put in there in the first place because of a rushed job that never saw proper fixes in the last decade. All the while other series are getting a new character each smash game because "Add this character because new game!"

In my opinion characters added to Smash should do two things: Bring fresh ideas to the fighting genre and highlight the great games Nintendo has made. That might not be the best way to phrase it, I'm obviously no word smith but I'll give some examples. Olimar, Inklings, and Ivysaur are great examples of bringing fresh ideas. Only their series could provide the ideas to the cooky ways they would fight. Other fighting series don't have that. Ness is the best example of highlighting great Nintendo games. Its nice to have a character where you can say "You want to know what makes Nintendo special? Look at Ness, try his game Earthbound. Its going to blow you away."

I think that becomes cheap when characters are added as blatant product promotion.
Well one way to hopefully not be bummed is to consider it this way. We may not have gotten Ganondorf when we got him if he wasn’t a clone, and that might have been a sore spot at the time to get pretty much anything but Ganondorf.

I like the way you look at character being “fresh”. I completely agree. At this point, unless it’s a cherry on top like a clone, I don’t really know that not having some “fresh” ideas is good enough. We’re going to be on a 5th generation Smash Bros. That has to lead to some pretty cool/new ideas.
Smash 3DS / Wii U has pretty much proven that the roster doesn't necessarily need a playable grass-type starter. While the idea of having one is there, there are a few things to keep note of. If Sceptile was implemented, that would surely leave the Blaziken fans feeling angry. And when you look at Decidueye, last I've checked, it's the least popular fully evolved 7th generation starter, while Rowlet is the most popular 7th generation Pokemon overall.
I’m not sure that I follow. Yeah Blaziken fans may be angry, but what about K.Rool fans? What about Ridley fans? They got angry, and that changes nothing.

If Sakurai were worried about angering people, half of the ideas we’ve been given would have never existed. He would pick every easy pick known to man. That is a negligible thing to worry about with Smash. Basically, if the director was worried, there would be no good progress made in the first place.

As far as Decidueye being unpopular, i’m not really sure I believe that, as i’ve seen polls or info that says otherwise.

I’m a big Blaziken fan. But I would prefer to see a Grass type in Smash because I not only want gameplay diversity, I want aesthetic diversity as well. Rather than have 2 fire types, give me something we don’t have.

I don’t have a particular problem with Incineroar, but the idea of picking another fire type when there are several types not in Smash...really? Pick Decidueye, pick Aegislash, pick Garchomp, pick something that doesn’t directly overlap somebody from the same series.

I’m not meaning to say Aegislash or Garchomp is likely...we’re undoubtedly getting an Alolan Pokémon. I just think it would suit the roster better if it were Decidueye. That’s my opinion though. I know many would prefer to see Mimikyu.
 

PsySmasher

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Pokémon is a very unpredictable series in terms of reps. You never know if a character is going to be dropped (especially since every game starting with Brawl has dropped multiple playable characters) or what Pokémon they’ll add in. Despite Smash always adding in a Pokémon from the most relevant generation, I can still see them add a mon from an older generation. Even if they do add a Gen 7 (or Gen 8) Pokémon, there are still plenty of other mons besides Decidueye that are perfectly viable.
 

ColietheGoalie

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Honestly, I’d rather have Zelda newcomers over major reworks for the existing characters. Tiers really only matter for competitive play, and Ganondorf/Zelda work fine in a For Fun context, so I’d rather they add new, interesting fighters from the franchise. Then maybe have balance patches to help the competitive community (like last time).

Not saying I’m against moveset tweaks for those characters, but if it’s between a complete overhaul for them and adding new LoZ fighters, I choose the latter.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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Careful, you're drawing a line in the sand where there wasn't one before. Just because people can play competitive or casual doesn't mean veterans shouldn't have new things done with them nor need be constrained in the same, decrepit mold that does their potential no favors.

No matter what data or design you're bringing back from a previous installment, everyone will have to be balanced for a fresh game.
 

The Animator

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Until the new smash was announced I wasn't even thinking about it since I figured it was going to be 2-3 more years before we got a new one. But now that they hit me with the reveal trailer I'm checking every day for new information. But it seems like we are getting nothing until e3. The wait is going to be brutal.

 

Murlough

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Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?
DK
Villager
Roy
Mario
Captain Falcon
ZSS, minus her side-b on stage.

These characters just feel so fluid to play. Most other characters either feel slow for no reason or have something that turns me off from them. Mewtwo's kit feels hella clunky to me and I mained him for 4 years.
 

Stratos

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Unbelievable! They have just recently mentioned what Pikachu would have evolved after Raichu, and this evolution is called Gorochu. It is about for the "cancelled evolution" of Pikachu. Do they have any plans for that?
 
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Sonic Poke

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Pokemon is unpredictable.
We can get Decidueye.
We can get Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar.
We can get Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Decidueye.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer, Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get pokemon from previous Gens or other Pokemon from Alola like Zeraora.
It can go anywhere.
 

ColietheGoalie

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Careful, you're drawing a line in the sand where there wasn't one before. Just because people can play competitive or casual doesn't mean veterans shouldn't have new things done with them nor need be constrained in the same, decrepit mold that does their potential no favors.

No matter what data or design you're bringing back from a previous installment, everyone will have to be balanced for a fresh game.
Not trying to draw a line in the sand, just saying that the majority of people would be more excited about new characters as opposed to tweaked frames and hitboxes.
 

osby

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Pokemon is unpredictable.
We can get Decidueye.
We can get Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar.
We can get Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Decidueye.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer, Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get pokemon from previous Gens or other Pokemon from Alola like Zeraora.
It can go anywhere.
64: Two most popular Pokemon from the anime
Melee: Two popular Pokemon with again prominent roles in anime
Brawl: A Pokemon important and popular in anime and a tag team celebrating Pokemon's 10th anniversary
For: A Pokemon with...an interesting situation
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Pokemon is unpredictable.
We can get Decidueye.
We can get Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar.
We can get Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get Incineroar and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Decidueye.
We can get Pokemon Trainer and Mimikyu.
We can get Pokemon Trainer, Decidueye and Mimikyu.
We can get pokemon from previous Gens or other Pokemon from Alola like Zeraora.
It can go anywhere.
Eh, I think Decidueye has a clear edge. Rowlet is the most popular Alolan Pokemon, being a starter obviously helps with exposure, and most importantly, its concept art is all Sakurai needs to craft a moveset. We got Greninja because Sakurai saw the concept art and immediately made a moveset out of it, and Decidueye is so perfect for Smash it hurts. An archer character with trapping moves and a grass aesthetic? Those are 3 things we don't have in Smash yet.

Also, I think Lycanroc is worth mentioning just because of how promoted it is. Rock moves certainly help its case, but being a quadraped is a double-edged sword.
 

Murlough

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I think Decidueye is the obvious choice for the next Pokemon. Its too popular and fulfills the water, fire, grass starter trio, even though I don't really like it, it makes sense. Because of the number of slots Pokemon has taken up already I doubt Sakurai intends to add two more Pokemon to the list, unless he's just a huge fan of another mon and can't resist adding them.

Decidueye is just too safe a pick for him to not be included. Which annoys the hell out of me because he's already in Pokken. :crying:
 
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Murlough

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Can anyone imagine the BotW Zelda doing current Zelda's moves? I don't mean specials I mean her normals, aerials, etc. I don't see it. The BotW Zelda doesn't even seem like the same person. If she doesn't get a rework I will eat my jacket.
 

osby

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Can anyone imagine the BotW Zelda doing current Zelda's moves? I don't mean specials I mean her normals, aerials, etc. I don't see it. The BotW Zelda doesn't even seem like the same person. If she doesn't get a rework I will eat my jacket.
Zeldas from Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess also look like they aren't suited for the fighting (at least hand to hand) but their proficiency in magic fixes it. Sparkling palms and kicks are kinda vague but works well enough for a character with inconsistent fighting past.

However... I can't see Zelda from Breath of the Wild fighting in general. It's going to be interesting to see her on field (since I doubt getting pants will make her Zero Suit Samus suddenly).
 

Cosmic77

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That's exactly how people think here.

"There's a new game coming out welp that character is guaranteed to appear."
"This game sold millions of copies so it's guaranteed a character."
"Hey no don't support this character it is too outdated and the game didn't sell a million copies."

Then it bites them in the butt when they don't take into consideration that it's still a video game, and these comments don't hold weight if the character doesn't offer anything special to warrant a playable status.
Except the Champions DO offer something special. I think they have just as much potential as any other Zelda character does, and while they are relatively new, that's not the reason I want them. Can't speak for everyone else, but that's how I feel anyway.

Although in all fairness, even if I was supporting the Champions solely because of their relevancy, it's not like the older iconic Zelda characters have faired any better in Smash. People who look down on those who support newer Zelda characters act like Skull Kid and Impa have never been rejected before.

When it comes to including any Champions, what would you guys think if only one of them got in, or < 3 got in? Do you feel like something would be lost by their appeal, or would they be considered individually?
Still don't understand why people act like the Champions must all be together in order for them to be accurately represented. We should be judging each Champion by his/her own merits, not grouping them together like they're a single mutant character.

Unless I'm simplifying things way too much, shouldn't it just boil down to Sakurai picking the Champion he wants playable? I think we've established that they're all of equal importance and that any Champion could work in Smash, so honestly, I don't think it really matters who gets chosen. I mean, I have a preference for Mipha, but I can't deny that Revali or Daruk wouldn't be just as unique.
 

Stratos

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Ganondorf will appear this time with the moves he has in The Legend of Zelda series? Not that it matters.
 

Autumn ♫

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If Decidueye becomes playable, it'll be based of their own merits, and not just a water, fire, grass starter trio thing. Only game we've had that in is Brawl, which is arguably the best way to implement the Pokemon Trainer. Otherwise, we've seen nothing to support that Sakurai really cares about having all 3 starter types in Smash.

Not saying that Decidueye is unlikely, since he definitely is likely. Just that he has way more going for him than being a grass starter.
 
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An archer character with trapping moves and a grass aesthetic? Those are 3 things we don't have in Smash yet.
Archer character: Pit/Dark Pit
Trapping moves: DK, Corrin, possibly Inkling depending on what their moveset is
Grass aesthetic: Ivysaur (though gone), Olimar

Not saying Decidueye can't get in because of these or whatever. Just that what you said is objectively false.
 
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Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
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"Reps" does need to die. It's term implying "slots to fill", which is never what Sak has in mind.

Right after that we can kill "gimmick". It's such a plastic, illegtimate term that's used for stuff not worthy of deep consideration.

Is Mario's jump a "gimmick"? Is Olimar's Pikmin a "gimmick"?

Is the entire game one gigantic "gimmick" for Nintendo?
 

MoonlitIllusion

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Honestly decidueye's typing will probably be a factor in them being included, they both fulfill the trio and offer 2 types that aren't represented in our current pokemon. And that's without taking the other things it has going for it into account
 

Arcanir

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Pokémon is in an interesting spot I'd say, because unlike cases like Brawl (where everyone guessed it would be Lucario) you have multiple choices of potential candidates with each having a good point for why you could go with them.
-Decidueye appeared in Pokken DX and general starter promotion.
-Mimikyu is huge in merchandise and media, and has a huge presence in the anime.
-Incineroar has the movie and also has general starter promotion.
-Lycanroc has the movie (Midnight), the anime (Dusk), and tons of merchandise and promotion itself.

You also have potential darkhorses like Bewear due to the anime, Silvally due to its role as a Rival's Pokémon and still having a presence in media, and even Rowlet because it gets so much love in the anime and merchandise. There's a good argument to be made for any of these guys and all of them would be worthwhile candidates to add to the game, in general I wouldn't sleep on any particular one, though I do understand having a preference to a certain few over others.
 

Murlough

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"Reps" does need to die. It's term implying "slots to fill", which is never what Sak has in mind.

Right after that we can kill "gimmick". It's such a plastic, illegtimate term that's used for stuff not worthy of deep consideration.

Is Mario's jump a "gimmick"? Is Olimar's Pikmin a "gimmick"?

Is the entire game one gigantic "gimmick" for Nintendo?
No. Aura is a gimmick. Its unique and sets Lucario completely different to every other character in the game. Lucario becomes very hard to balance due to his gimmick. Olimar's Pikmin and Mario's.....jump....don't set them apart in a way that makes them any more or any less difficult to balance after release.

Limit is also a true Gimmick. You could probably make arguments that anything else current in Smash is or isn't a gimmick but those two are inarguable. Maybe Corrin's ability to deal damage with the charging animation of F-Smash? Thats not really that difficult to balance though. I dunno.

You can discuss gimmicks, such as "this character gets a completely new moveset when they are knocked to 35%!" intelligently and productively because its easy to tell that its a pretty "out there" idea compared to the average member of the cast.

I don't know if I agree with the reps thing either. I think the concept that there is a hard limit on what series get characters wise based on arbitrary factors is really dumb but it is realistic. On top of that, there are a few people on here who have claimed that Sakurai himself has said he feels FE may have got too much representation in Smash 4. If Sakurai himself feels that way then then the rep thing is pretty real, though I doubt he will ever take it as seriously as some people here do.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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I think the one thing we can be absolutely positive about is that we will be getting a Pokémon newcomer. At least one, no question.

There's plenty of currently viable candidates. No telling who's the most "likely" of the bunch, but there's so many options that are getting the spotlight right now and also quite popular. Not adding one of them would be a horribly missed opportunity, and I don't see why they'd not take it, especially since they've done that for pretty much every previous Smash game as well.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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If you are the type that only plays 3d Zelda’s maybe.

If you play 2d Zelda’s, Vaati is thought of second only to Ganon.

But since it’s ganondorf in there and not Ganon, most seem to play 3d Zelda’s.
No. Skull Kid is definitely the second most recognized villain after Ganondorf. For people who play all Zelda games.
 

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
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No. Aura is a gimmick. Its unique and sets Lucario completely different to every other character in the game. Lucario becomes very hard to balance due to his gimmick. Olimar's Pikmin and Mario's.....jump....don't set them apart in a way that makes them any more or any less difficult to balance after release.

Limit is also a true Gimmick. You could probably make arguments that anything else current in Smash is or isn't a gimmick but those two are inarguable. Maybe Corrin's ability to deal damage with the charging animation of F-Smash? Thats not really that difficult to balance though. I dunno.

You can discuss gimmicks, such as "this character gets a completely new moveset when they are knocked to 35%!" intelligently and productively because its easy to tell that its a pretty "out there" idea compared to the average member of the cast.

I don't know if I agree with the reps thing either. I think the concept that there is a hard limit on what series get characters wise based on arbitrary factors is really dumb but it is realistic. On top of that, there are a few people on here who have claimed that Sakurai himself has said he feels FE may have got too much representation in
Smash 4. If Sakurai himself feels that way then then the rep thing is pretty real, though I doubt he will ever take it as seriously as some people here do.
My point isn't that gimmicks don't exist or rather, that charcters don't have some sort of unique mechanic or ability when compared with the rest of the cast, but that the term "gimmick" implies little intrinsic merit.

What happens then in character speculation and discussion is "gimmick" is used off-handedly as a term for a character's unique mechanics or abilities (this, on its own, would be fine), but it is also used negatively (Duck Hunt is just a gimmick character, Limit Break is such a gimmick) and I find this such a shortcut to actual reasoning.

The term "gimmick" bypasses a lot of discussion on what by all respects should be called "mechanics" or "function".

Anyone who championed for Mii Fighters will know what I'm talking about.
 

Freduardo

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No. Skull Kid is definitely the second most recognized villain after Ganondorf. For people who play all Zelda games.
If you’re talking playing all zelda games, Ganon outclasses Ganondorf.

If you’re talking people that started playing zelda after it was already around for 10 years, Ganondorf, sure.

Moblin Lord > Gerudo Lord.
 

KingofPhantoms

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In regards to Zelda again, I am highly curious as to how it's characters on the roster are going to be handled this time.

I still stand by my point in that one-shot Zelda characters have never gotten into Smash as fighters before, so while it's perfectly fine to support the Champions (I would likely support at least one of them myself, but I've yet to get far in BotW. You'd be correct to assume that means I don't know much of anything about them) don't get your hopes up too high.

Change in regards to that would be nice, but there's really no way to tell just yet if we'll finally get anyone outside of the core 3 and some of their counterparts.
 

MrRoidley

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  1. Mario: Jumpman
  2. Luigi: Mr L
  3. Peach: Daisy
  4. Bowser: Dry Bowser
  5. Rosalina: Mario Tennis Aces Outfit.
  6. Dr. Mario: Dr. Luigi
  7. Bowser Jr: Baby Bowser
  8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
  9. Wario: Pirate Wario
  10. Link: ALttP Link
  11. Zelda: ALttP Zelda
  12. Shiek: Impa
  13. Toon Link: Young Link
  14. Ganondorf: Phantom Ganondorf
  15. Samus: Fusion
  16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
  17. Kirby: Yarn Kirby
  18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
  19. Meta-Knight: Galacta Knight
  20. Fox: James McCloud
  21. Falco: Star fox Assault Falco
  22. Pikachu: Raichu
  23. Lucario: Riolu
  24. Charizard: Charizard Clone
  25. Jigglypuff: Igglybuff
  26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
  27. Mewtwo: Armored Mewtwo
  28. Ness: Ninten
  29. Lucas: Claus
  30. Donkey Kong: Kiddy Kong
  31. Diddy Kong: Striker Outfit
  32. Pit: Classic Pit
  33. Palutena: Psuedo-palutena
  34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
  35. Marth: Sigurd
  36. Ike: Hector
  37. Robin: Hooded Robin
  38. Lucina: Masked Lucina
  39. Roy: Eliwood
  40. Corrin: Camilla Outfit.
  41. Captain Falcon: Blood Falcon
  42. Olimar: Louie
  43. Villager: New Leaf Villager
  44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
  45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
  46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
  47. Shulk: M100 Shulk
  48. ROB: Ancient Minister
  49. Little Mac: Doc’s Uniform
  50. Sonic: Classic Sonic
  51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
  52. Mega Man: Megaman X
  53. Ryu: Ken
  54. Cloud: Kingdom Hearts Cloud
  55. Bayonetta: Bayonetta 3 (?)
  1. Mario: Wedding Outfit
  2. Luigi: Princess Peach dress
  3. Peach: Wedding outfit
  4. Bowser: Wedding outfit
  5. Rosalina: Cosmic Spirit
  6. Dr. Mario: Chef Mario (not sure how much sense would it make tho)
  7. Bowser Jr: Koopa Kids from Mario Party
  8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
  9. Wario: Pirate Wario
  10. Link: Classic Link
  11. Zelda: Classic Zelda
  12. Sheik: Hyrule Warriors Sheik
  13. Toon Link: Young Link (the ALBW one maybe)
  14. Ganondorf: Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf
  15. Samus: Power Suit (the basic one)
  16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
  17. Kirby: Gooey (would it even work tho? I have no ideas)
  18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
  19. Meta-Knight: that really spoilerish boss from Star Allies
  20. Fox: James McCloud
  21. Falco: Star fox Assault Falco
  22. Pikachu: Detective Pikachu (full with 8 pallete swaps and voice change)
  23. Lucario: Black Belt Trainer costume
  24. Charizard: Red's hat costume
  25. Jigglypuff: Meloetta-inspired hat
  26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
  27. Mewtwo: Armored Mewtwo
  28. Ness: Ninten
  29. Lucas: Claus
  30. Donkey Kong: Funky Kong (regardless of the surfboard)
  31. Diddy Kong: Striker Outfit
  32. Pit: Classic Pit
  33. Palutena: Classic Palutena
  34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
  35. Marth: 90's weird artwork costume
  36. Ike: Path Of Radiance Ike
  37. Robin: Morgan
  38. Lucina: Chrom
  39. Roy: Eliwood
  40. Corrin: whoever's Corrin child is (haven't played Fates)
  41. Captain Falcon: Ryu Suzaku
  42. Olimar: 4 new Charlie alts, 4 new Brittany alts
  43. Villager: Tom Nook (didn't choose the NL Villager because of height differences)
  44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
  45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
  46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
  47. Shulk: endgame Shulk (with the different monado)
  48. ROB: Ancient Minister
  49. Little Mac: Expanding the hoodie palletes would do
  50. Sonic: Metallic Sonic skin from Sonic Heroes multiplayer
  51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
  52. Mega Man: Protoman I guess?
  53. Ryu: Ken
  54. Cloud: Costume(s) inspired in old FF classes (Black Mage, White Mage, Ninja, etc)
  55. Bayonetta: Rosa (she has different attributes tho, but she so visually similar to Bayo they could make it like it was just Bayo dressed as Rosa)
 

Kirby Dragons

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What the fans mean by "reps" is misunderstood. I don't think there's anybody saying representation is the only thing that matters. You don't see anyone asking for Sumo Kong and Banana Bird because they want another DK character, do you?

I don't see any problem with representation being one of multiple factors in newcomers' inclusions. When crossovers take in several different series and make them one, I think it's only natural for some series to take priority over others.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Scoliosis Jones Scoliosis Jones : While I do see Mimikyu appearing in some form, I just don't see it making the cut as a playable character. But I do see it having potential as an enemy in Smash Run or Adventure mode, especially if the Disguise ability protects it from a fighter's attack damage for a while.

Decidueye is just too safe a pick for him to not be included. Which annoys the hell out of me because he's already in Pokken. :crying:
Sadly, Pokken Tournament gave Jigglypuff and Greninja the middle finger, so I don't think a Pokken Tournament appearance helps Decidueye very much, if at all. And considering Rowlet's popularity in the 7th generation, it would just be criminal if Rowlet doesn't get an appearance in some way.
 
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