Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Murlough]

Because development time is precious and it would be far wiser to actually fix problems instead of ignoring it. Adding a new character is not going to fix the problems that characters like Zelda and Ganondorf have. Long term, people are still going to bitter that the Zelda series got the short end of the stick yet again because the characters are too fundamentally busted to be of practical use. Hell for all we know, the newcomer might even be another busted execution, only further highlighting the problem.

The last part has nothing to do with anything as I've already said. Jigglypuff is terrible but that didn't mean Greninja was terrible when he was released. The last bit is just semantics or guess work or whatever its called but it can't be called a good argument. Even if they fixed every character and added a new Zelda rep to boot the new charcater may be bad while the others are good. Their is no correlation.

Anyway, the way I see it the game is gonna be a mess at launch, period, unless they do a complete 1-1 conversion of Smash 4 which I really hope they don't do (Fix accidental footstools Sakurai. FIX. THEM. PLEASE). Smash 4 released a mess, but later on after the game had been out balance patches graced the Smash series with their presence for the first time which fixed many, many issues.

Development time is precious, however if they spend all their time worrying about anything being too bad or too good at release very little will be done compared to just getting everything you want done before release, and then balancing the game as issues arise. As I've been told, Sakurai mainly cares about the casual fanbase, and in casual play tiers don't really matter so balance really isn't an issue until the competitive scene starts figuring stuff out anyway. I say add the characters you want and then post-release start making sure everything is fair and balanced.

Also, half the characters are bad. That is 2 out of only 4. I feel like leaving such a loved franchise with four characters leaves more fans feeling like they got the short end of the stick as opposed to the characters being bad. If Mimikyu got in, for example, and was a low tier I wouldn't, and shouldn't, feel like I got the short end of the stick because I was lucky enough to get the character I wanted from a series I loved.

EDIT *(ok, this last example is pretty terrible...basically I'm trying to say its better to get the characters you want for the series you want than to not get them at all. So what if they aren't that great? At least they have been acknowledged right? Besides every character is gonna be balanced later on anyway, except ) *cries*

 

[Captain Shwampy]

You know a really cool Sonic rep would be Blaze

I mean the main 3 plus Eggman and Shadow are more likely due to them being iconic but blaze would rad

Just saying

Spoiler

 

[osby]

Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?

 

[Hinata]

Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?

Before Bayonetta, I was a hardcore Shulk main, and I feel like his playstyle suits him damn near perfectly.

 

[MysticKnives]

While I feel it could be tweaked a bit, I'm pretty satisfied for the most part with Ness' moveset. I feel like him having a pretty strong aerial game just fits him.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

That point you made there, "A character's design should have who that character is as one of its driving elements, if you reduce it to a grab bag of things from the series or incarnations of the same individual that are meaningfully different from each other, you've replaced the character with iconography."

You've just described Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, Mr. Game & Watch, and Mega Man. A grab-bag assortment of moves for each character used to represent the games they came from and/or are related to in some fashion.

Pac-Man and Duck Hunt both have problems in their design (Duck Hunt more glaringly so)
WFT and GW are both concepts as much as characters, as can be seen even in their names. GW is literally an OC meant to represent a series of games in the abstract (actually exactly what I said before, just with no pretense of being anything else). WFT is designed in a way that is very internally consistent, and even then is still sort of a face over an idea.
And Megaman is not a valid counterexample. Yeah, he doesn't have all those powers in a single game, but he's the same character with the same basic dynamics (give or take a doggo) across all of the games that he pulls from. If he started using moves from the RPGs or something, that would be more of an issue, but the only real outlier is his Final Smash, which represents the other Megamen by just _using those characters_ rather than have him do their things.

Warriors should used as a great reference. For one, a better way to represent Ganondorf, as Smash can't seem to get that right.

Ganondorf is debatable, though you're on the more popular side, but whatever is done with him, it most definitely should not be like HW. See below

Hyrule Warriors demonstrated a non-Smash way of creating movesets for these ago-old characters.

Here's the thing, those movesets are garbage. This is a part that you didn't mention from my initial post, but I'll reiterate that all they consist of are sweeping motions, explosions, and references to things that often aren't even that well thought out in isolation (remember how there was an iconic forest? This character now summons that forest as an attack! ...?). I don't understand how people can pay attention to it and like it. It's like if one of Link's combos just ended with an image of the logo of Loz 2, that's how shallow it is. Honestly, if it ended with the "I am Error" guy running up out of nowhere and exploding into sparkles, people would still be calling it a nice reference.

Why can't Smash do something similar? I fail to see how excellent animation and effects with references to the character's series is a problem.

I know repeating myself within the same post is stupid, but excellent animations? Seriously? You sound like one of those people that praise the graphics of Street Fighter 4 over Third Strike. I'm running out of ways to say that it's repetitive and not even impressive the first time.
Just do me a favor and look at them a little bit closer. Every Warriors game is the same in this respect (FE has it no better). Sweep, sweep, sweep up/together, explosion. Sometimes there's a more qualitatively different animation just preceding the explosion, but even then what you get is "especially big sword stroke" or "thing you've seen elsewhere appears" or just some generic AoE effect. It's trash. Shiny, over-budgeted trash.

Besides the point, I'm talking about how much respect Hyrule Warriors gave the characters it had. I'd just like to see Smash do the same, is all.

The very last thing I'd call HW is respectful. It's honestly insulting the way it just slaps "iconic" images on to things with no rhyme or reason and fans get excited because they hadn't seen that thing referenced in LoZ games outside of its original context. I'd come up with an example of something that's equally stupid to what they actually did, but I can't beat Skull Kid just kicking a moon soccer ball.
Here's something that isn't exclusively me repeating myself: People want Skull Kid, right? Look at what HW would have us do for his moveset: His fairies fly in arcs over and over to hit opponents, he does "signature" poses while generic dark energy makes explosions, and oh, here's a moon. Is that actually what you want?
And he's not even the worst.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?

Dr. Mario basically exists as an alternative for players to go back to the simpler moveset of the Melee days, thanks in part to the Bros. getting new attacks added to their arsenal. So long as they both keep evolving, I think the good doctor is fine as is.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?

Dedede in Brawl really nailed the feeling of playing as him, I loved that he could throw his servants around and that his final smash was literally him making others do his job. I've always been awful with Dedede, but as a Kirby fan I really appreciated how they nailed him. His moveset is still good in Smash 4, but it doesn't have the same personality, though I guess they kind of made up for that with his great facial expressions.

Meta Knight is someone who I think they got right and I'm actually good with, he's tailor made for 1v1s which fits his duelist theme from the games, and I love his multihit normals which really gives you a sense of relentlessly assaulting your opponent. The changes they made for him in Smash 4 were also really good for him (and everyone else), I think they hit a very good spot with him in terms of balance.

Basically Sakurai knows his Kirby stuff, who would have thought?

 

[NintendoKnight]

Pac-Man and Duck Hunt both have problems in their design (Duck Hunt more glaringly so)
WFT and GW are both concepts as much as characters, as can be seen even in their names. GW is literally an OC meant to represent a series of games in the abstract (actually exactly what I said before, just with no pretense of being anything else). WFT is designed in a way that is very internally consistent, and even then is still sort of a face over an idea.
And Megaman is not a valid counterexample. Yeah, he doesn't have all those powers in a single game, but he's the same character with the same basic dynamics (give or take a doggo) across all of the games that he pulls from. If he started using moves from the RPGs or something, that would be more of an issue, but the only real outlier is his Final Smash, which represents the other Megamen by just _using those characters_ rather than have him do their things.


Ganondorf is debatable, though you're on the more popular side, but whatever is done with him, it most definitely should not be like HW. See below


Here's the thing, those movesets are garbage. This is a part that you didn't mention from my initial post, but I'll reiterate that all they consist of are sweeping motions, explosions, and references to things that often aren't even that well thought out in isolation (remember how there was an iconic forest? This character now summons that forest as an attack! ...?). I don't understand how people can pay attention to it and like it. It's like if one of Link's combos just ended with an image of the logo of Loz 2, that's how shallow it is. Honestly, if it ended with the "I am Error" guy running up out of nowhere and exploding into sparkles, people would still be calling it a nice reference.


I know repeating myself within the same post is stupid, but excellent animations? Seriously? You sound like one of those people that praise the graphics of Street Fighter 4 over Third Strike. I'm running out of ways to say that it's repetitive and not even impressive the first time.
Just do me a favor and look at them a little bit closer. Every Warriors game is the same in this respect (FE has it no better). Sweep, sweep, sweep up/together, explosion. Sometimes there's a more qualitatively different animation just preceding the explosion, but even then what you get is "especially big sword stroke" or "thing you've seen elsewhere appears" or just some generic AoE effect. It's trash. Shiny, over-budgeted trash.

The very last thing I'd call HW is respectful. It's honestly insulting the way it just slaps "iconic" images on to things with no rhyme or reason and fans get excited because they hadn't seen that thing referenced in LoZ games outside of its original context. I'd come up with an example of something that's equally stupid to what they actually did, but I can't beat Skull Kid just kicking a moon soccer ball.
Here's something that isn't exclusively me repeating myself: People want Skull Kid, right? Look at what HW would have us do for his moveset: His fairies fly in arcs over and over to hit opponents, he does "signature" poses while generic dark energy makes explosions, and oh, here's a moon. Is that actually what you want?
And he's not even the worst.

All I get out of this is that you dislike Hyrule Warriors. A subjective opinion. Nothing you've stated makes it objectively bad, nor have you convinced me of its so-called "garbage" nature. Those things you ascribe to its "bad" animation literally exists in many more animations for similar concepts. This also leads you bagging on the overall Warriors design (and its repetitiveness) and using that to say that the animation sucks. Just because you dislike Warriors doesn't make it of poor quality.

Without your personal opinion, you have no real facts as to how "poor" the games are as you claim. "Oh no, that one sword character swung wildly a couple times and downed like 80 dudes with a flashy explosion at the end. Why did that happen? It's not like this game is about stylishly wiping out whole armies with a single character or anything, and especially not as an homage to the series we're basing this particular installment on." That sort of argument is ineffective. Hyrule Warriors, much like Smash Bros, is a celebrational type of game. They wish to pay homage and bring back remembrance to the many games of the series as possible. Smash tries for similar many times.

Now, I'm not asking Smash to make all the characters some sort of composite versions of themselves. Although, in a typical crossover fighting game, this is not beyond reason. If a game such as Nintendo Vs Capcom were to ever happen, I fully expect such a thing.

And yes, it is respectful to a large degree. At least, more respectful to Ganondorf specifically than Smash has ever been. Everything Ganondorf does in that game calls back to the actual abilities the character is believed to possess, along with some inspiration taken straight from Demise. Has Ganondorf done anything in Smash that he's been famous for in his games? No. Did he do some of his famous things in HW? Absolutely. Does it make sense for HW to give Ganondorf those abilities? Even more yes, because it's believed he can and should do those things.

HW also handled Ghirahim extremely well, as well as Zant, Sheik, and Toon Link.

You also make it sound like I believe everything in Hyrule Warriors is gold. Fi's moveset is trash, why is Agitha in the game, Link's Magic Rod only has one good attack, His Great Fairy also has cinematics that take so long she's useless, and Ruto is so not fun to play as it hurts my soul.

You don't like what Skull Kid did in Hyrule Warriors? You must really prefer how Sm4sh handled him as an Assist Trophy. "Hey, look! It's Skull Kid! I can't wait for him to reverse my control scheme, something he's unabashedly famous for in his game." Maybe he should follow Smash Ganon's approach and just punch people with generic dark energy instead? That'll get people hyped.

Also, that jab at the Street Fighter thing was completely unnecessary. Go searching for the thread labeled "Imagine a drastic change in graphics..." and you'll get my opinion on Street Fighter's art style.

You've also provided no evidence to your point of the "iconic" images being bad. Like, seriously? Why is that an issue? You're the only person I've seen have a major problem with that. Video game characters are icons. We expect them to do things that are iconic to them. You seem to have a huge issue with that, but without any real reason to support your feelings on the matter.

The only point I'll really concede on is Mega Man, and Mr. Game & Watch, the latter of whom I was already familiar with the circumstances. Outside of Smash, there is no Mr. Game & Watch.

Otherwise, your calling something "trash" does not make it "trash." Your tastes are clearly different from mine, but that does not make your argument any stronger; it merely means you disagree.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Pretty sure Link's final Smash does end with an image of the triforce as a reference for no real reason.
Ness's moves are borrowed from his party members.
Twilight Princess Zelda's moves are borrowed from Ocarina of Time Link and a toon incarnation of her.
Villager uses Balloon Fighters recovery because the game is playable in an AC game and also "hey Animal Crossing has balloons",
To a lesser extent Shulk spouts Reyn's catchphrase, etc, etc but these are a selection of random references because hey remember these vaguely attached things to the playable character?

Also the sweeping animations and explosions are obviously a good idea for Hyrule Warriors as the entire game consists of you mowing down an army of mooks and from a sheer gameplay perspective you NEED to have sweeping motions that take out a dozen weakened enemies.

Some HW movesets are weaker at representing that character than others granted but the same can be said for Smash.

 

[Yonder]

Y'know, they need to majorly revamp Ganondorf. I'm not talking just moveset, I'm saying his design, voice actor, everything. Ganondorf in Melee, while being a clone of Falcon, at least had his youthful, Ocarina design with some serviceable enough speed while also packing a punch.

His voice was great too, especially during his Warlock punch. It truly sounded like he was summoning a great deal of power from within him. I used to throw out some Warlock punches as a kid just to here that awesome yell.

Now,we have a beyond slow Ganondorf with a mixed design (beard works as if he's gained experience between games. But all he gained was like, 50 pounds in between games). He barely gets changes in his moveset, and his voice is atricious. That awesome warlock punch war cry now sounds like a toddler who is pouting to himself then suddenly soils himself. Ughhhhhh.

Just fix his moveset, give him some speed from Melee, change his voice, and give him the Hyrule Warriors design. I'll use Ganondorf again then (was a secondary in Melee)

 

[NintendoKnight]

Y'know, they need to majorly revamp Ganondorf. I'm not talking just moveset, I'm saying his design, voice actor, everything. Ganondorf in Melee, while being a clone of Falcon, at least had his youthful, Ocarina design with some serviceable enough speed while also packing a punch.

His voice was great too, especially during his Warlock punch. It truly sounded like he was summoning a great deal of power from within him. I used to throw out some Warlock punches as a kid just to here that awesome yell.

Now,we have a beyond slow Ganondorf with a mixed design (beard works as if he's gained experience between games. But all he gained was like, 50 pounds in between games). He barely gets changes in his moveset, and his voice is atricious. That awesome warlock punch war cry now sounds like a toddler who is pouting to himself then suddenly soils himself. Ughhhhhh.

Just fix his moveset, give him some speed from Melee, change his voice, and give him the Hyrule Warriors design. I'll use Ganondorf again then (was a secondary in Melee)

I'd be quite happy to have his old voice actor, Takashi Nagasako, reprise his role as the Great King of Evil.

 

[NintenRob]

Y'know, they need to majorly revamp Ganondorf. I'm not talking just moveset, I'm saying his design, voice actor, everything. Ganondorf in Melee, while being a clone of Falcon, at least had his youthful, Ocarina design with some serviceable enough speed while also packing a punch.

His voice was great too, especially during his Warlock punch. It truly sounded like he was summoning a great deal of power from within him. I used to throw out some Warlock punches as a kid just to here that awesome yell.

Now,we have a beyond slow Ganondorf with a mixed design (beard works as if he's gained experience between games. But all he gained was like, 50 pounds in between games). He barely gets changes in his moveset, and his voice is atricious. That awesome warlock punch war cry now sounds like a toddler who is pouting to himself then suddenly soils himself. Ughhhhhh.

Just fix his moveset, give him some speed from Melee, change his voice, and give him the Hyrule Warriors design. I'll use Ganondorf again then (was a secondary in Melee)

I agree with this so much, while I can enjoy Ganondorf as he is now, he was so much better in Melee. I miss that voice.





Back to the topic of Skull Kid though, if he got in, he would probably (hopefully) have one of the most exciting Final Smashes in the game, bringing on the moon. Ideally cut scene that includes his iconic scream.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Has Ganondorf done anything in Smash that he's been famous for in his games? No.

I'm content to be pedantic: Flame choke clearly comes from when he kills the sage, probably the most iconic instance of him attacking in TP.

Even more yes, because it's believed he can and should do those things.

What is this "it's believed" stuff?

HW also handled Ghirahim extremely well, as well as Zant, Sheik, and Toon Link.

Relative to it being Warriors, I'm with you on Ghirahim and Zant. Sheik is only a step less inane than Skull Kid (Edit: Though she is mechanically much better).

You also make it sound like I believe everything in Hyrule Warriors is gold.

No, I just criticized the praises you made of it

You don't like what Skull Kid did in Hyrule Warriors? You must really prefer how Sm4sh handled him as an Assist Trophy. "Hey, look! It's Skull Kid! I can't wait for him to reverse my control scheme, something he's unabashedly famous for in his game." Maybe he should follow Smash Ganon's approach and just punch people with generic dark energy instead? That'll get people hyped.

With the exception of the Ganon thing from just before and the "grab bag" bit, I haven't been defending any existing design in Smash, simply saying that these new design premises would not improve things. What I will say is that what you've said is a deflection at best.

You've also provided no evidence to your point of the "iconic" images being bad. Like, seriously? Why is that an issue? You're the only person I've seen have a major problem with that. Video game characters are icons. We expect them to do things that are iconic to them. You seem to have a huge issue with that, but without any real reason to support your feelings on the matter.

I think I've been explicit about it, it's just that you feel differently about it. I was definitely stumbling around in the earlier post, being clear:
I don't like it because all it is is a callback (or something similar) but doesn't really enhance the design. Ideally, as much of a character's moves and attributes go towards communicating their character as possible. It is somewhere between shallow and dysfunctional to approach this by doing things like Skull Kid's moon kick.
This is a bizarre example, but it's the only thing I can think of to communicate the point:

There's this sub-shovelware browser fighting game called Filosofighters, which features philosophers. It gives each of them a punch and a kick and two specials. The non-special moves are basically filler in every case, which is understandable. For the specials, there are some interesting ones, certainly. For example, Karl Marx can summon a proletariat mob to charge his opponent.
Plato, of course, is featured. What does everyone know Plato for? The Allegory of the Cave. Even if you've never studied philosophy you've probably been exposed to it, which I suspect is the main reason that that meme with it is so prevalent. It was also massively influential to the entire Western philosophical tradition and gave us things like The Matrix, but I suspect no one who doesn't already know this cares.
So how does the game represent this ubiquitously famous work?

Plato drops a cave on his opponent. A cave falls from the sky, lands on the opponent, and disappears. It has nothing really to do with any of the ideas in the work, it's just "you want caves, here's a cave."

Hyrule Warriors does almost literally the same thing with the Lost Woods.

Now, it's perfectly possible that you're fine with this. If that's the case, I guess I don't have anything more to say to you, but I've tried to explain my feelings on the subject more clearly. I apologize for rambling so much, I probably shouldn't be arguing with people at 4 am.

Edit: Formatting, spelling, etc.

Spoiler: Yes, it's real

 

[Danpal65]

With all this talk of Skull Kid and the Moon all I can think of is how much I want Great Bay to return as a stage. It was a pretty fun stage to play on, with Tingle and the Turtle. Plus, it was one of the few stages that had, basically, the plot of the game going on in the background, which was super cool.

 

[Staarih]

With all this talk of Skull Kid and the Moon all I can think of is how much I want Great Bay to return as a stage. It was a pretty fun stage to play on, with Tingle and the Turtle. Plus, it was one of the few stages that had, basically, the plot of the game going on in the background, which was super cool.

I agree, the Great Bay was pretty cool, especially with the Moon falling and the giants pushing it back up. I'd love to see it return... as long as it's updated (graphically). I'm probably of the minority (?) who would rather have updated versions of past stages rather than them looking visually the same as before, probably one of the only gripes I have with returning stages. But I guess keeping them intact does retain that "retro", original look Sakurai is probably after.

 

[Danpal65]

I agree, the Great Bay was pretty cool, especially with the Moon falling and the giants pushing it back up. I'd love to see it return... as long as it's updated (graphically). I'm probably of the minority (?) who would rather have updated versions of past stages rather than them looking visually the same as before, probably one of the only gripes I have with returning stages. But I guess keeping them intact does retain that "retro", original look Sakurai is probably after.

Would be pretty easy as well. Just update it to match the Majora's Mask 3D version in glorious HD. Would look pretty spiffy.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm content to be pedantic: Flame choke clearly comes from when he kills the sage, probably the most iconic instance of him attacking in TP.

What is this "it's believed" stuff?

Relative to it being Warriors, I'm with you on Ghirahim and Zant. Sheik is only a step less inane than Skull Kid (Edit: Though she is mechanically much better).


No, I just criticized the praises you made of it


With the exception of the Ganon thing from just before and the "grab bag" bit, I haven't been defending any existing design in Smash, simply saying that these new design premises would not improve things. What I will say is that what you've said is a deflection at best.


I think I've been explicit about it, it's just that you feel differently about it. I was definitely stumbling around in the earlier post, being clear:
I don't like it because all it is is a callback (or something similar) but doesn't really enhance the design. Ideally, as much of a character's moves and attributes go towards communicating their character as possible. It is somewhere between shallow and dysfunctional to approach this by doing things like Skull Kid's moon kick.
This is a bizarre example, but it's the only thing I can think of to communicate the point:

There's this sub-shovelware browser fighting game called Filosofighters, which features philosophers. It gives each of them a punch and a kick and two specials. The non-special moves are basically filler in every case, which is understandable. For the specials, there are some interesting ones, certainly. For example, Karl Marx can summon a proletariat mob to charge his opponent.
Plato, of course, is featured. What does everyone know Plato for? The Allegory of the Cave. Even if you've never studied philosophy you've probably been exposed to it, which I suspect is the main reason that that meme with it is so prevalent. It was also massively influential to the entire Western philosophical tradition and gave us things like The Matrix, but I suspect no one who doesn't already know this cares.
So how does the game represent this ubiquitously famous work?

Plato drops a cave on his opponent. A cave falls from the sky, lands on the opponent, and disappears. It has nothing really to do with any of the ideas in the work, it's just "you want caves, here's a cave."

Hyrule Warriors does almost literally the same thing with the Lost Woods.

Now, it's perfectly possible that you're fine with this. If that's the case, I guess I don't have anything more to say to you, but I've tried to explain my feelings on the subject more clearly. I apologize for rambling so much, I probably shouldn't be arguing with people at 4 am.

Edit: Formatting, spelling, etc.

Spoiler: Yes, it's real

Eh, it was just past 1:30 AM for me. Pacific Coast Time, of course.

Also, good Lord that cave thing is real?! ....That's actually quite hilarious. Not that I'm saying that dropping a cave on someone is a good move in a game, yet... that's actually really imaginative. A bit tongue-in-cheek as well, so points for that.

Well, there is a point to the Lost Woods I haven't actually spoke of yet. You're referring to the character Lana, whom has the Deku Spear weapon. At various intervals, she'll summon many "Deku" associated objects such as the Deku Shield, the Deku Tree Sprout, a few trees here and there, shooting Deku seeds, and yes, even the Great Deku Tree himself. But never is the entirety of the Lost Woods ever summoned.

Just a few trees whacking enemies. (BTW this weapon also sucks.)

Yes, I get it that this sort of thing adds no flavor to your slice of the pie, but it doesn't really detract anything from the overall experience either (unless it really does for you, in which case, I'm sorry).

The "believed" part is merely a figure of speech. I have a habit of speaking with non-absolutes. I drive my father up the wall with that. If he asked me a question that would prompt a "yes" answer, I'd actually answer "Pretty much." If he asked me a question that would prompt a "no" answer, I'd actually respond with "Not really." I'm working on trying to give more absolute answers in my speech, but I'm still not quite there, yet.

In regards to the critiquing of my praises of the game, they weren't really critiques other than you stating you disagree with how its handled. I mean, I certainly understand that the Warriors style of gaming definitely is not everyone's cup of tea. I just don't hold that against the game. Anyone familiar with the series should know what they're in for when they choose to play it. For many, it's an acquired taste.

However, that doesn't take away what good the game has to offer, and there's plenty of that. For one, everyone seems to be enthralled with HW Ganondorf. I mean, it's not hard to see why, either:

Spoiler: this stud is a beast

Well, I guess there's not much more room for anything else on this matter.

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Knowing Sakurai it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he hasn't brought back Great Bay is because Tingle is in the stage, and is also an assist trophy, and you just can't have two Tingles on screen at the same time.

 

[Nekoo]

Knowing Sakurai it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he hasn't brought back Great Bay is because Tingle is in the stage, and is also an assist trophy, and you just can't have two Tingles on screen at the same time.

Alfonzo my man. Leave it to him.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While I am okay with Ganondorf's Twilight Princess incarnation, his appearance in Smash 3DS / Wii U didn't feel quite as evil as his Brawl appearance.

 

[Wyoming]

Knowing Sakurai it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he hasn't brought back Great Bay is because Tingle is in the stage, and is also an assist trophy, and you just can't have two Tingles on screen at the same time.

Eh both have distinguishable designs from one another. I think Great Bay wasn't brought back because they keep bringing back Temple instead. I get its appeal - I've played my fair share of 300% 99s stock matches there, but it along with Jungle Japes, Onett, and Yoshi's Island can kind of stop coming back now. I want other Melee stages in.

 

[Cosmic77]

Eh both have distinguishable designs from one another. I think Great Bay wasn't brought back because they keep bringing back Temple instead. I get its appeal - I've played my fair share of 300% 99s stock matches there, but it along with Jungle Japes, Onett, and Yoshi's Island can kind of stop coming back now. I want other Melee stages in.

Fourside and Poke Floats would be nice. Haven't seen those two in a while.

Unfortunately, I doubt they'll ever get in this game (or at least the base game). Aside from the new stages we're already getting, Magicant and Kalos Pokemon League are probably the most likely returning stages for both of the series respectively.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I want Brinstar Depths for that sweet HD Kraid, plus it's one of the most chaotic stages we've had in Smash.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Is it just me, or is the fantasy of a Zero Escape fighter really really really growing on me when it shouldn't?

 

[92MilesPrower]

Is it just me, or is the fantasy of a Zero Escape fighter really really really growing on me when it shouldn't?

As long as it's Junpei and he uses the Funyarinpa in some way, shape or form. (I love ZE, but I don't think it's really got potential for a fighter nor is it notable enough to be represented, it's got a cult following rather than a more sizable fan base)

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

As long as it's Junpei and he uses the Funyarinpa in some way, shape or form. (I love ZE, but I don't think it's really got potential for a fighter nor is it notable enough to be represented, it's got a cult following rather than a more sizable fan base)

I dunno, Phi might have just as great of a shot now that she's across the latter two games & remains pretty important to the plot (although you could prolly throw in Clover just as much if you wanted.) I dunno, the mad designer in me wants an 'investigator' style fighter, and I'm frothing at the mouth imagining throwing a Nonary Game into a Smash stage.

If Spike Chunsoft wanted popularity, just go for Danganropa (which has yet to come Nintendo-side!)

 

[Deleted member]

I must spread the message.

♫ Ok guys we're gonna rap some Nintenzone members! YOU just do the singing! I'LL take care of the hard part! ♫

♫ Lets get it on! ♫

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♫ ****post! ****post! Gotta ****post! NIN-TEN-ZONE!!! ♫

♫ I'll search across the boards! Everyone's **** taste! Release from my hand! All my low effort posts!!! ♫
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♫ Gotta tag all one hundred-fifty and a **** load more to see!!!To be a ****post Master is my! DES-TI-NY!!! ♫
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♫ WOO! We're at the halfpoint! That means we're probably going to get infracted like hell! Wait! Why are you tagging members who haven't been here in ages? Gotta make from for 150 somehow! But that makes no sen- (gets shot)

HERE WE GO!!! ♫
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♫ GOTTA ****POST! NIN-TEN-ZONE!!! ♫[/USER]

Five weeks and three days until E3!!!!

Knowing Sakurai it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he hasn't brought back Great Bay is because Tingle is in the stage, and is also an assist trophy, and you just can't have two Tingles on screen at the same time.

You can still make two Marios fight together though.

Since we talked about which characters' play style we don't like in Smash: Which character's moveset and play style do you like most or think it feels them very well?

I think everyone's playstyle fits them well. I do not know, they just grew on me and their moveset is very good at describing their personalities.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

8 Player Smash. Lock all fighters in a chamber (or the cruise liner from 999). Everyone gets assigned 9-2 via Ambidex on the UI (no one knows who the 1st is, find out by KO'ing each other.) Every number is timed for sudden death @ random. Zero Jr. occasionally chimes in to taunt the characters & commentate on the transitioning stage hazards.

Come on, Sakurai, why aren't you doing this? Go book lunch with Uchikoshi!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Y’know, i’m seeing a lot of discussion about how series “need” a character or should get redesigns. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the “redesigns” are suggested because of needing to be relevant rather than making the gameplay better. This is a video game. How characters play matters. To me, a huge Smash fan (it’s been my favorite since 64), gameplay is more important at this stage in the series lifespan.

I do believe Ganondorf could be reworked to be more accurate to his character. I am concerned however, that fans want him to be strong and fast, a recipe for a character that will be overpowered. Canonically, the only person who can beat Ganon/Ganondorf is Link. In Smash, many, many characters including Link would be unable to compete with that.

In that sense, a slow and strong Ganondorf makes more sense because then he is more easily balanced. In addition, I myself love the idea of adding the Dead Man’s Volley. However, how do we balance that? If he uses it, does that make him a sitting duck? If a character deflects it back, is Ganondorf required to hit it back, thus making him easy to rush down? Then, if he's on the heavier side, he'd be easy to combo.

Fixing Ganondorf is not that easy, or at least not a simple fix. I think there are different things they could do, but it's more about balance than making characters resemble their home series selves. It's important for them to be accurate to work. But Smash is not Zelda. Making Ganondorf the same as his canonical self is problematic on a gameplay level.

As far as the Princess herself, I think her aerial attacks could stay somewhat similar to her current build. But I think she could be faster, not have nearly as many sweet spots or sour spots. Give her the Champion abilities.

On a side note, but a related note...we need to talk about expectations. We're getting BOTW Link and have no idea what changes are occurring. We can all say what we expect, but we don't know. If Zelda gets changed, which I believe that her design will (and her old moveset wouldn't even fit the BOTW design, therefore warranting a moveset overhaul similar to Bowser imo), and then we want a Ganondorf overhaul...are we really expecting a newcomer?

Let's be real, the Zelda series characters in Smash need work. A lot of work. If they get fixed it'll be a much needed breath of fresh air. If you didn't know this (even though I think it's obvious) reworking veterans is similar work to newcomers. BOTW Zelda and a refined Ganondorf would be our Zelda newcomers. If you add another, do we really need 3 Zelda newcomers? Especially one that is no more relevant than the other 3 who were introduced with them?

This brings me to my next point...not every game needs a character to "rep" it. This is why I hate the concept of "reps" and sincerely wish people would stop using the term. It implies that characters get in to "rep" things specifically, rather than gameplay. Obviously, characters represent things from their home series, but the way I've been seeing things it has nothing to do with gameplay for a lot of fans. To them it's more like, "Add this character because new game!". That's preposterous. The Champions can be Assist Trophies, in a BOTW themed stage, etc. That is a HUGE jump to say they should or need to be playable.

You're probably now questioning Sheik. She's a rare case in which she was in because of the circumstances, and is retained because she's an incredibly popular vet.

As a fan of Zelda, I think the Assist Trophies are excellent roles for the characters. I can not only appreciate that Sakurai has another job prepared for characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and others, but it helps me understand that not every character is going to be playable. That is an unfortunate reality we need to come to grips with. Obviously, Little Mac and Charizard show characters can outgrow the "non-playable but Smash appearance" role, but obviously not every character will make that jump.

Sorry, wall o' text. Moral of the story: "reps" are dumb, not every character ever will be playable, Zelda series needs work, but needs some real consideration in how to do it.

 

[Cosmic77]

Y’know, i’m seeing a lot of discussion about how series “need” a character or should get redesigns. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the “redesigns” are suggested because of needing to be relevant rather than making the gameplay better. This is a video game. How characters play matters. To me, a huge Smash fan (it’s been my favorite since 64), gameplay is more important at this stage in the series lifespan.

I do believe Ganondorf could be reworked to be more accurate to his character. I am concerned however, that fans want him to be strong and fast, a recipe for a character that will be overpowered. Canonically, the only person who can beat Ganon/Ganondorf is Link. In Smash, many, many characters including Link would be unable to compete with that.

In that sense, a slow and strong Ganondorf makes more sense because then he is more easily balanced. In addition, I myself love the idea of adding the Dead Man’s Volley. However, how do we balance that? If he uses it, does that make him a sitting duck? If a character deflects it back, is Ganondorf required to hit it back, thus making him easy to rush down? Then, if he's on the heavier side, he'd be easy to combo.

Fixing Ganondorf is not that easy, or at least not a simple fix. I think there are different things they could do, but it's more about balance than making characters resemble their home series selves. It's important for them to be accurate to work. But Smash is not Zelda. Making Ganondorf the same as his canonical self is problematic on a gameplay level.

As far as the Princess herself, I think her aerial attacks could stay somewhat similar to her current build. But I think she could be faster, not have nearly as many sweet spots or sour spots. Give her the Champion abilities.

On a side note, but a related note...we need to talk about expectations. We're getting BOTW Link and have no idea what changes are occurring. We can all say what we expect, but we don't know. If Zelda gets changed, which I believe that her design will (and her old moveset wouldn't even fit the BOTW design, therefore warranting a moveset overhaul similar to Bowser imo), and then we want a Ganondorf overhaul...are we really expecting a newcomer?

Let's be real, the Zelda series characters in Smash need work. A lot of work. If they get fixed it'll be a much needed breath of fresh air. If you didn't know this (even though I think it's obvious) reworking veterans is similar work to newcomers. BOTW Zelda and a refined Ganondorf would be our Zelda newcomers. If you add another, do we really need 3 Zelda newcomers? Especially one that is no more relevant than the other 3 who were introduced with them?

This brings me to my next point...not every game needs a character to "rep" it. This is why I hate the concept of "reps" and sincerely wish people would stop using the term. It implies that characters get in to "rep" things specifically, rather than gameplay. Obviously, characters represent things from their home series, but the way I've been seeing things it has nothing to do with gameplay for a lot of fans. To them it's more like, "Add this character because new game!". That's preposterous. The Champions can be Assist Trophies, in a BOTW themed stage, etc. That is a HUGE jump to say they should or need to be playable.

You're probably now questioning Sheik. She's a rare case in which she was in because of the circumstances, and is retained because she's an incredibly popular vet.

As a fan of Zelda, I think the Assist Trophies are excellent roles for the characters. I can not only appreciate that Sakurai has another job prepared for characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and others, but it helps me understand that not every character is going to be playable. That is an unfortunate reality we need to come to grips with. Obviously, Little Mac and Charizard show characters can outgrow the "non-playable but Smash appearance" role, but obviously not every character will make that jump.

Sorry, wall o' text. Moral of the story: "reps" are dumb, not every character ever will be playable, Zelda series needs work, but needs some real consideration in how to do it.

No offense, but your argument seems directed entirely at BotW.

Here's the thing. Whenever you say that not every Zelda game needs to be repped, you're putting your focus on representation itself. You're completely ignoring how the supporters of certain characters see potential in said character. Yeah, a BotW newcomer isn't needed, but I'm not supporting Mipha because, "OMG! BotW is the newest Zelda game and it was a huge success! Sakurai needs to add a BotW rep." Yes, I think that greatly increases her likeliness, but that's not why I support her. I want a healer and a spear fighter in Smash, and I genuinely think Mipha would be unique.

Bottomline, it just seems like you're too focused on arguing against newer games and "reps" instead of judging the character itself and what they could bring to Smash. Feels like you're assuming relevancy and BotW's success is the only reason why someone would support a Champion.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

No offense, but your argument of seems directed entirely at BotW.

Here's the thing. Whenever you say that not every Zelda game needs to be repped, you're putting your focus on representation itself. You're completely ignoring how the supporters of certain characters see potential in said character. Yeah, a BotW newcomer isn't needed, but I'm not supporting Mipha because, "OMG! BotW is the newest Zelda game and it was a huge success! Sakurai needs to add a BotW rep." Yes, I think that greatly increases her likeliness, but that's not why I support her. I want a healer and a spear fighter in Smash, and I genuinely think Mipha would be unique.

Bottomline, it just seems like you're too focused on arguing against newer games and "reps" instead of judging the character itself and what they could bring to Smash. Feels like you're assuming relevancy and BotW's success is the only reason why someone would support a Champion.

No offense taken, friend.

When I focused on BOTW, I by no means believe all fans of all characters in this situation are rabid or want them simply as a “rep”. Unfortunately, it’s a majority of what I see from people who discuss them.

I think each Champion could be a lot of fun and unique. But that can be said for many other characters i’d like to see.

 

[Sonic Poke]

I’m not good at proposing topics of discussion here. Perhaps they aren’t interesting enough. But here’s something for everyone.

Let’s say every Smash 4 character gets an alt costume while characters, like Wii Fit Trainer or Olimar, gets a second one on top of the previous alt costume they had (including Bowser Jr). What alt costumes would characters get?

Here’s mine:

Spoiler

1. Mario: Referee Mario
2. Luigi: Mr L
3. Peach: Sporty Peach
4. Bowser: Wedding Bowser
5. Rosalina: Cosmic Spirit
6. Dr. Mario: Delfino Doctor Mario on Vacation
7. Bowser Jr: Sunshine Bowser Jr
8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
9. Wario: Showman Wario
10. Link: Barbaric Armor Link
11. Zelda: Hooded Zelda
12. Shiek: Yuga Clan Shiek
13. Toon Link: Outset Link
14. Ganondorf: Phantom Ganondorf
15. Samus: Federation Marine
16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
17. Kirby: Clay Kirby
18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
19. Meta-Knight: Galacta Knight
20. Fox: James McCloud
21. Falco: Star fox Assault Faldo
22. Pikachu: Masked Wrestler Pikachu
23. Lucario: Korrina Outfit
24. Charizard: Poke Ride Charizard
25. Jigglypuff: Wigglytuff
26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
27. Mewtwo: Shadow Mewtwo
28. Ness: Pajamas
29. Lucas: Masked Swordsman Lucas
30. Donkey Kong: Boxer Kong
31. Diddy Kong: Shades and Guitar Diddy Kong
32. Pit: Classic Pit
33. Palutena: Psuedo-palutena
34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
35. Marth: Sigurd Outfit
36. Ike: Legendary Ike
37. Robin: Hooded Robin
38. Lucina: Masked Lucina
39. Roy: Eliwood Outfit
40. Corrin: Summer and New Year Corrin (FEH)
41. Captain Falcon: Helmetless Falcon
42. Olimar: Louie
43. Villager: New Leaf Villager
44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
47. Shulk: M100 Shulk
48. ROB: Ancient Minister
49. Little Mac: Doc’s Uniform
50. Sonic: Classic Sonic
51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
52. Mega Man: Rush Adapater Mega Man
53. Ryu: Evil Ryu
54. Cloud: Kingdom Hearts Cloud
55. Bayonetta: Nude Bayonetta

Man, some of those were a stretch.

1. Mario: Jumpman
2. Luigi: Mr L
3. Peach: Daisy
4. Bowser: Dry Bowser
5. Rosalina: Mario Tennis Aces Outfit.
6. Dr. Mario: Dr. Luigi
7. Bowser Jr: Baby Bowser
8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
9. Wario: Pirate Wario
10. Link: ALttP Link
11. Zelda: ALttP Zelda
12. Shiek: Impa
13. Toon Link: Young Link
14. Ganondorf: Phantom Ganondorf
15. Samus: Fusion
16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
17. Kirby: Yarn Kirby
18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
19. Meta-Knight: Galacta Knight
20. Fox: James McCloud
21. Falco: Star fox Assault Falco
22. Pikachu: Raichu
23. Lucario: Riolu
24. Charizard: Charizard Clone
25. Jigglypuff: Igglybuff
26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
27. Mewtwo: Armored Mewtwo
28. Ness: Ninten
29. Lucas: Claus
30. Donkey Kong: Kiddy Kong
31. Diddy Kong: Striker Outfit
32. Pit: Classic Pit
33. Palutena: Psuedo-palutena
34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
35. Marth: Sigurd
36. Ike: Hector
37. Robin: Hooded Robin
38. Lucina: Masked Lucina
39. Roy: Eliwood
40. Corrin: Camilla Outfit.
41. Captain Falcon: Blood Falcon
42. Olimar: Louie
43. Villager: New Leaf Villager
44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
47. Shulk: M100 Shulk
48. ROB: Ancient Minister
49. Little Mac: Doc’s Uniform
50. Sonic: Classic Sonic
51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
52. Mega Man: Megaman X
53. Ryu: Ken
54. Cloud: Kingdom Hearts Cloud
55. Bayonetta: Bayonetta 3 (?)

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

When it comes to including any Champions, what would you guys think if only one of them got in, or < 3 got in? Do you feel like something would be lost by their appeal, or would they be considered individually?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Feels like you're assuming relevancy and BotW's success is the only reason why someone would support a Champion.

That's exactly how people think here.

"There's a new game coming out welp that character is guaranteed to appear."
"This game sold millions of copies so it's guaranteed a character."
"Hey no don't support this character it is too outdated and the game didn't sell a million copies."

Then it bites them in the butt when they don't take into consideration that it's still a video game, and these comments don't hold weight if the character doesn't offer anything special to warrant a playable status.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

When it comes to including any Champions, what would you guys think if only one of them got in, or < 3 got in? Do you feel like something would be lost by their appeal, or would they be considered individually?

I don't see the issue with including one and not the others, we have charizard and greninja but not their fellow starters. A character being a part of a group shouldn't hold them back.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I don't see the issue with including one and not the others, we have charizard and greninja but not their fellow starters. A character being a part of a group shouldn't hold them back.

In the case of Charizard & Greninja, this is assuaged by both characters having a wide generation gap. It wouldn't be necessary to retread the same ground by getting Blastoise & Delphox, and Grass-type becomes a non-sequitur.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

In the case of Charizard & Greninja, this is assuaged by both characters having a wide generation gap. It wouldn't be necessary to retread the same ground by getting Blastoise & Delphox, and Grass-type becomes a non-sequitur.

I'm sorry I don't follow your point? Are you saying that Greninja covers the water starter that Blastoise was missing from?

If so while that is a point, I don't think that's the point they were making, or the one I agree with. The starter trios are always shown as a group of Pokemon together just like the Champions are. Yet one was picked from the trio (Charizard for gen 1 and Greninja for gen 6). So why couldn't the same happen for the Champions? I do think that none of the Champions stand out in the same way that Charizard and Greninja do in terms with popularity and promotion, but alot of that popularity and promotion for Greninja came from smash so it was a reaction to the inclusion, not the reason.

Basically I love almost all the Champions and would love for one to get in, and I don't see why them being part of a group holds them back. Hell the other three could even be part of the final smash and summon the other divine beasts for attacks. Also instead of having Zelda use the champion powers we could have the individual champion use them. Yup I like this idea now lol.

 

[Troykv]

That's exactly how people think here.

"There's a new game coming out welp that character is guaranteed to appear."
"This game sold millions of copies so it's guaranteed a character."
"Hey no don't support this character it is too outdated and the game didn't sell a million copies."

Then it bites them in the butt when they don't take into consideration that it's still a video game, and these comments don't hold weight if the character doesn't offer anything special to warrant a playable status.

I'm agree with this posture; I understand people expecting character for being the "New Popular thing from the moment".

But I would only support this kind of character if they actually impress me with the stuff they can do; not just the numbers of their games.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I'm sorry I don't follow your point? Are you saying that Greninja covers the water starter that Blastoise was missing from?

If so while that is a point, I don't think that's the point they were making, or the one I agree with. The starter trios are always shown as a group of Pokemon together just like the Champions are. Yet one was picked from the trio (Charizard for gen 1 and Greninja for gen 6). So why couldn't the same happen for the Champions? I do think that none of the Champions stand out in the same way that Charizard and Greninja do in terms with popularity and promotion, but alot of that popularity and promotion for Greninja came from smash so it was a reaction to the inclusion, not the reason.

Basically I love almost all the Champions and would love for one to get in, and I don't see why them being part of a group holds them back. Hell the other three could even be part of the final smash and summon the other divine beasts for attacks. Also instead of having Zelda use the champion powers we could have the individual champion use them. Yup I like this idea now lol.

More or less, as much as I personally think it doesn't matter.

IIRC, Greninja was already picking up popularity within the Pokémon fanbase & was getting heavy anime promotion following its reveal, although whether or not this was a factor in Sakurai's pick from a WIP level might not be symptomatic? Depends on what he knew about pre-production of X/Y & its related materials.

Eeeehn, I know I'm arguing from pedantry. W/o having played BotW to any meaningful extent, I do not doubt a single Champion would be egregious. Guess I'm just the type who gets really annoyed when there's asymmetric idiosyncrasies in rosters (1 Champ? Why not the other 3?) Nevertheless, I'm with ScoliosisJones when it comes to the state of the Legend of Zelda veterans in that everyone except Link & Sheik are in need of some serious revisitation to the design table.