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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Paperchampion23

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
2,031
It's honestly a weird feeling. If this was like Smash 4, and certain picks

<---------------

had gotten the shaft again, I'd give a lot more ****s about any of these theories.

But now I'm just sitting here like "I hope we get a decent number of characters for people who still haven't gotten their favorites yet."

Feels good man. This game could drop right now and be the best Smash game ever and we aren't even done yet.
I'm in the same boat. I got my big picks in the form of vets and more heavies. However, I lurk a lot of the possible newcomer threads, and have for years. You see a lot of people passionate about certain characters. Characters who definitely have merit to join smash.

I just want these people to finally be happy and cheer.

Like, when K. Rool was announced, I think I read through almost 100 pages of comments in the K. Rool thread. I was just awesome to see.
 

Soulsaint

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
163
Alright, to just, cool off a bit.


If we're mostly on board with Verg being right, what's Incineroar's Specials?


Side-B is obviously Darkest Lariat

And I imagine his standard B would be Fire Spin from his concept art
I am hoping Sakurai based it on his concept art, and that the table is implemented in his moveset. I really.hope they go all out heel wrestler.
 

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
17,725
Location
Waxing Moon Ritual
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Switch FC
SW-4826-9581-3305
Neutral Special: Throat Chop
Incineroar leans back and holds his fist back he charges this, and upon release, stomps forward and slams his unfurled claws outward as a beam of fire erupts straight from his palm. Simply knocks opponents back if not fully charged, but if fully charged, crumples them.
I don't quite think that's what a throat chop is.
 

Nethermoosen

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
1,508
Location
Left
Switch FC
6001 9919 2607
It's honestly a weird feeling. If this was like Smash 4, and certain picks

<---------------

had gotten the shaft again, I'd give a lot more ****s about any of these theories.

But now I'm just sitting here like "I hope we get a decent number of characters for people who still haven't gotten their favorites yet."

Feels good man. This game could drop right now and be the best Smash game ever and we aren't even done yet.
Ha. I can always be content with the roster, but when I know they are adding characters, I ALWAYS have that next favorite.

I was waiting for Ridley and K. Rool. Now, I’m wanting someone else. And I can’t even pick out of my top 5...6.......32. I don’t know.

I’ll always have a preference for next pick, but not getting my favorite never bothered me. I never played Pikmin before Brawl and I didn’t really care for Olimar.

Then someone told me “some characters are just trash.”
I was like....”maybe, but it isn’t all that bad.”
He said “Oh really? Then play as Olimar.”

And it wasn’t too long after that I was kicking ass with Olimar.

Then a few years later I found out he was considered top tier. Go figure.
Anyways, point is, I end up liking playstyles and gimmicks enough that it doesn’t matter if the character itself didn’t interest me at first.
 

Idon

Smash Legend
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Waxing Moon Ritual
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Switch FC
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You see a lot of people passionate about certain characters. Characters who definitely have merit to join smash.

I just want these people to finally be happy and cheer.
A lot of characters have merit in joining Smash.
The real question's whether they have merit to Sakurai in particular.
9e601bb814c2e67f8ce4f72ad720060e.png

That's the animation it's given in Sun/Moon. I did my research sir!
yeah okay but have you seen this:
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
24,013
Ha. I can always be content with the roster, but when I know they are adding characters, I ALWAYS have that next favorite.

I was waiting for Ridley and K. Rool. Now, I’m wanting someone else. And I can’t even pick out of my top 5...6.......32. I don’t know.

I’ll always have a preference for next pick, but not getting my favorite never bothered me. I never played Pikmin before Brawl and I didn’t really care for Olimar.

Then someone told me “some characters are just trash.”
I was like....”maybe, but it isn’t all that bad.”
He said “Oh really? Then play as Olimar.”

And it wasn’t too long after that I was kicking *** with Olimar.

Then a few years later I found out he was considered top tier. Go figure.
Anyways, point is, I end up liking playstyles and gimmicks enough that it doesn’t matter if the character itself didn’t interest me at first.
Actually, same. Half of my favourite characters are from For, I didn't even know most of them.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
1,534
I did make a Incineroar moveset a while back.

Neutral Special: Throat Chop
Incineroar leans back and holds his fist back he charges this, and upon release, stomps forward and slams his unfurled claws outward as a beam of fire erupts straight from his palm. Simply knocks opponents back if not fully charged, but if fully charged, crumples them.

Side Special: Darkest Lariat
Incineroar channels energy in his fists as he charges this move up, and when released, begins a rapid lariat with his arms extended. Goes quite far, and is great for off-stage recoveries.

Up Special: Fury Swipes
Incineroar swipes upwards rapidly, so quickly and viciously, that it propels him into the air! Quick and juggles opponents upwards if caught, but has a small hitbox. Has decent horizontal height, but practically no vertical height.

Down Special: Scary Face
Incineroar hides his face as you charge this move, and when released, flashes opponents in front of him with a terrifying expression, stunning them and allowing Incineroar to go in for extra hits.
Great stuff! I particularly love the idea of Scary Face, i would very much like to see this moveset in action. This kind of thing gets me hyped for Incineroar, tbh i haven't played Gen 7 yet so i don't really know much about the big cat
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
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Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
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I don't mean to be terse. It's just a little fatiguing to see people set themselves up for failure/disappointment, and let their biases invert the priority of their sources.

These are our first-order sources, either broadcast from the director of the game in a heavily edited video presentation to the entire world, or published in his personal column in Famitsu: (english sources quoted, links to Source Gaming where applicable)
Our first-order inferences are things which might not be explicit, but come from the games themselves. We only ignore these when we are explicitly told otherwise.
  • Every game has featured new characters, stages, items, Pokemon, and (since Brawl) Assist Trophies.
  • Every game has featured a few secret characters.
    • We were told explicitly that this will not be the case this time.
  • The following Smash 4 costumes are mysterious missing from footage so far, or the demo:
    • Daisy
    • Dark Samus
  • Assist Trophies characters are not playable characters.
  • The following noteworthy Assist Trophies from Smash 4 are mysteriously missing from footage so far:
    • Dark Samus
    • Isabelle
    • Magnus
    • Saki
    • Shadow
    • Skull Kid
    • Tingle
  • Most non-echo Smash characters are overwhelmingly:
    • A playable protagonist/Pokemon (53/68), a recurring series villain (6/68), or a recurring series princess (4/68).
      • Exceptions are Falco, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, Isabelle.
    • Relevant in games within the last ~8 years (60/68).
      • Exceptions are Ness, Ice Climbers, Roy, Ike, Lucas, ROB, Simon, and K. Rool.
  • Many new characters announced for Smash Ultimate were already a big part of Smash 4:
    • Wii U Trophies (7/9)
    • 3DS Trophies (6/9)
    • Mii Costumes (5/9)
  • Noteworthy Mii Costumes not directly connected to other Smash 4 DLC content or deconfirmed as Smash 5 fighters include:
    • Chrom
    • Daisy
    • Inkling
    • K. Rool
    • Isabelle
    • Barbara the Bat
    • Majora's Mask (Skull Kid)
    • Lloyd
    • Virigi
    • Geno
    • Gil
    • Tails
  • Echo fighters always match their original's series.
    • Falcon -> Ganondorf was a one-off exception in a different context; Melee's rushed development almost saw Ganon cut, and his Spaceworld model fitting Falcon's skeleton was considered "lucky."
  • At least one new character has been revealed during every Nintendo Direct or roundtable that highlights Smash.
    • 0 occurances of 3+ characters revealed at once
    • 5 occurrences of 2 characters revealed (2 of these were DLC pairs)
    • 11 occurrences of 1 character revealed (3 of these were DLC)
    • Only 2 non-secret characters (Robin and Shulk) were revealed in videos posted outside of a Direct.
    • We can't really establish a pattern for echoes with only 2 real data points.
  • Nintendo's Directs, counting only general Directs in every region + Smash-specific Directs, happen about every 2 months.
    • Mean: ~75 days
    • Median: 60 days
    • We had a Direct 5 days ago, and there are only 73 days until launch week. It would be unprecedented to either not have 1 more Direct, or to have 2 in that time.
Our second-order sources are people allegedly connected to development who are providing additional information, but have some claim to accuracy:
  • Vergeben has reported Ken and Incineroar from 4 sources, and "a Square Enix rep" from a single one. (With Vergeben himself suggesting perhaps it is DLC) He has also reported "some form of Minecraft representation." Vergeben was previously correct on:
    • No cuts from 4
    • ICs and Snake
    • Ridley
    • Simon
    • Isabelle
  • CoroCoro stated that there are 108 stages in their article on the 8.8 Direct, under the screenshot of the 103 stages.
    • This contradicts both the Direct and Sakurai's column, and CoroCoro themselves did not acknowledge the difference or treat it as new information.
Our second-order inferences are our observations about official game materials. We only ignore these if we can plausibly generate a more likely story for their existence.
  • The ordering of characters on the side of the special edition box render is very peculiar. While the author made sure to remove Isabelle and the remaining character slot, the consistent order of the characters suggests an empty spot (for an echo) on only the lower row of the opposing side.
    • This would match Ken, and could not match Shadow or Dixie.
  • There are unexplained additional series icon assets on the website for series with multiple characters, as well as a few other series with only one character.
    • It seems dubious that our "few" new characters would come from series such as Wii Fit or Duck Hunt.
  • The website is updating characters, stages, items, assist trophies, and Pokemon at a rate that very closely lines up with the December 7th release date, suggesting there there will be minimal new material to cover further.
    • While blog posts continued for Brawl and Smash 4, those updates mostly covered unlock able secret content that could not be covered before release day.
  • Unofficial polls attempting to guess to simulate the results of the official Smash Ballot.
    • These tend to only sample a single region, and selectively oversample a particular sub-community, so accuracy is limited.
Past this, we just have gut feelings that amount to nothing factual--just an echo chamber of random people on the Internet talking to each other about tertiary video game characters and background furniture.

Keep things anchored to reality, and we'll all be a lot happier.
 
Last edited:

Nethermoosen

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2018
Messages
1,508
Location
Left
Switch FC
6001 9919 2607
Alright, to just, cool off a bit.


If we're mostly on board with Verg being right, what's Incineroar's Specials?


Side-B is obviously Darkest Lariat

And I imagine his standard B would be Fire Spin from his concept art
Man, I have never even used him.

Judging from what I have seen

I would add Cross Chop
Flamethrower/Flame Charge
And a TM move
Either Sunny Day or Swords Dance.
 

Luigi The President

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
9,728
Location
Rogueport
I don't mean to be terse. It's just a little fatiguing to see people set themselves up for failure/disappointment, and let their biases invert the priority of their sources.

These are our first-order sources, either broadcast from the director of the game in a heavily edited video presentation to the entire world, or published in his personal column in Famitsu: (english sources quoted, links to Source Gaming where applicable)
Our first-order inferences are things which might not be explicit, but come from the games themselves. We only ignore these when we are explicitly told otherwise.
  • Every game has featured new characters, stages, items, Pokemon, and (since Brawl) Assist Trophies.
  • Every game has featured a few secret characters.
    • We were told explicitly that this will not be the case this time.
  • The following Smash 4 costumes are mysterious missing from footage so far, or the demo:
    • Daisy
    • Dark Samus
  • Assist Trophies characters are not playable characters.
  • The following noteworthy Assist Trophies from Smash 4 are mysteriously missing from footage so far:
    • Dark Samus
    • Isabelle
    • Magnus
    • Saki
    • Shadow
    • Skull Kid
    • Tingle
  • Most non-echo Smash characters are overwhelming:
    • A playable protagonist/Pokemon (53/68), a recurring series villain (6/68), or a recurring series princess (4/68).
      • Exceptions are Falco, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, Isabelle.
    • Relevant in games within the last ~8 years (60/68).
      • Exceptions are Ness, Ice Climbers, Roy, Ike, Lucas, ROB, Simon, and K. Rool.
  • Many new characters announced for Smash Ultimate were already a big part of Smash 4:
    • Wii U Trophies (7/9)
    • 3DS Trophies (6/9)
    • Mii Costumes (5/9)
  • Noteworthy Mii Costumes not directly connected to other Smash 4 DLC content or deconfirmed Smash 5 characters include:
    • Chrom
    • Daisy
    • Inkling
    • K. Rool
    • Isabelle
    • Barbara the Bat
    • Majora's Mask (Skull Kid)
    • Lloyd
    • Virigi
    • Geno
    • Gil
    • Tails
  • Echo fighters always match their original's series.
    • Falcon -> Ganondorf was a one-off exception in a different context; Melee's rushed development almost saw Ganon cut, and his Spaceworld model fitting Falcon's skeleton was considered "lucky."
  • At least one new character has been revealed during every Nintendo Direct or roundtable that highlights Smash.
    • 0 occurances of 3+ characters revealed at once
    • 5 occurrences of 2 characters revealed (2 of these were DLC pairs)
    • 11 occurrences of 1 character revealed (3 of these were DLC)
    • Only 2 non-secret characters (Robin and Shulk) were revealed in videos posted outside of a Direct.
    • We can't really establish a pattern for echoes with only 2 real data points.
  • Nintendo's Directs, counting only general Directs in every region + Smash-specific Directs, happen about every 2 months.
    • Mean: ~75 days
    • Median: 60 days
    • We had a Direct 5 days ago, and there are only 73 days until launch week. It would be unprecedented to either not have 1 more Direct, or to have 2 in that time.
Our second-order sources are people allegedly connected to development who are providing additional information, but have some claim to accuracy:
  • Vergeben has reported Ken and Incineroar from 4 sources, and "a Square Enix rep" from a single one. (With Vergeben himself suggesting perhaps it is DLC) He has also reported "some form of Minecraft representation." Vergeben was previously correct on:
    • No cuts from 4
    • ICs and Snake
    • Ridley
    • Simon
    • Isabelle
  • CoroCoro stated that there are 108 stages in their article on the 8.8 Direct, under the screenshot of the 103 stages.
    • This contradicts both the Direct and Sakurai's column, and CoroCoro themselves did not acknowledge the difference or treat it as new information.
Our second-order inferences are our observations about official game materials. We only ignore these if we can plausibly generate a more likely story for their existence.
  • The ordering of characters on the side of the special edition box render is very peculiar. While the author made sure to remove Isabelle and the remaining character slot, the consistent order of the characters suggests an empty spot (for an echo) on only the lower row of the opposing side.
    • This would match Ken, and could not match Shadow or Dixie.
  • There are unexplained additional series icon assets on the website for series with multiple characters, as well as a few other series with only one character.
    • It seems dubious that our "few" new characters would come from series such as Wii Fit or Duck Hunt.
  • The website is updating characters, stages, items, assist trophies, and Pokemon at a rate that very closely lines up with the December 7th release date, suggesting there there will be minimal new material to cover further.
    • While blog posts continued for Brawl and Smash 4, those updates mostly covered unlock able secret content that could not be covered before release day.
Past this, we just have gut feelings that amount to nothing factual--just an echo chamber of random people on the Internet talking to each other about tertiary video game characters and background furniture.

Keep things anchored to reality, and we'll all be a lot happier.
Holy **** brother
 

Noipoi

Howdy!
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
52,986
Location
Viva La France
Great stuff! I particularly love the idea of Scary Face, i would very much like to see this moveset in action. This kind of thing gets me hyped for Incineroar, tbh i haven't played Gen 7 yet so i don't really know much about the big cat
Go play it. Right now.
It's actually one of my favorite Pokemon generations.
Sun and Moon have their issues, but they're great Pokemon games and if you're a fan you'll love them.
Just prepare for cutscenes. After the first batch of tutorials your good.
 

hposter

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
153
Location
Flatzone
There are unexplained additional series icon assets on the website for series with multiple characters, as well as a few other series with only one character.
  • It seems dubious that our "few" new characters would come from series such as Wii Fit or Duck Hunt.
i haven't seen these anywhere, you got images or anything?
 

DaybreakHorizon

Beauty in the Chaos
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
9,625
Location
The Shadow World
NNID
tehponycorn
3DS FC
4253-3486-4603
Yeah, this is the kind of mind set that's really bumming me out. People can't want more without someone jumping down their throats over it. It's all speculation man, if he thinks we're going to get more characters more power to him, there's no reason to go off on a tangent on him just because he's got a different outlook.

And it's not just you Shroob. A lot of people here have done this.
From the standpoint of someone who was a part of Sm4sh speculation, it's scary to see people get their hopes up like this. People vehemently denying Box Theory or discrediting Vergeben solely because they want more, or they want something different. I experienced similar things occur during Sm4sh speculation. When Gematsu became big people doubted it because it didn't have Ridley or K. Rool or Dixie. Fake leaks like Tower of Smash got attention solely because they contained popular characters and entertained the idea of characters being unlocked if you communicated between the two versions, which allowed fans to continue "speculation" (or keep their hopes alive instead of accepting reality). I also refuse to let people forget that the fanbase took "RIDLEY IS IN THE CLOUDS" seriously, because that's absolutely ridiculous.

Guess what happened when the ESRB leak came out and the Shulk trailer confirmed it a week after?

Chaos. I often go to the example of a user cursing out the entire leaks group, and most of us remember how hated Dark Pit was at the time, as many saw him stealing a roster spot from their character (if there's one thing to be happy about, it's that this argument is all but dead this speculation cycle). Fans of the Duck Hunt Dog remember the ire drawn towards their character because he was the last to be officially revealed, and he wasn't a popular character. Now that we have hindsight, we can realize that Dark Pit was an easy clone to make, and that the Duck Hunt Dog is an iconic Nintendo character, but at the time all that some fans could see is red, and those fans were very loud and caused a lot of chaos in the community.

Expectations are a very dangerous thing. It's why I've made an active effort to address people whenever they say "I expect x" or "y is a shoe-in," because no character is a lock for this game until they are confirmed. Its the same with any theory or leak. The only reason I back box theory is due to the evidence provided, and the fact that any argument against it is as flimsy as cardboard. Of course, box theory itself is based on hypotheticals, but the way that they all come together perfectly makes me inclined to not call it coincidence. When I see people try to dispute it with "Incineroar and Ken can't be our next reveal" or "Sakurai always trolls his fans, there's sure to be more" or making other straw grasps to disprove it I see this speculation scene going down that same route that Sm4sh speculation did, and I don't want that. Especially because this speculation cycle has gotten a lot of people's hopes up for their favorite character, and I can all-too-clearly see those hopes crashing down when the full roster leaks, leading to something worse than the post-ESRB fallout for Sm4sh.

Mind you, it's okay if you don't want to believe box theory. If you want more characters, power to you. I also agree that those who are trying to temper expectations for the sake of the fandom shouldn't be so quick to jump at others. However, if you're going to try to disprove box theory, or argue that we're going to get more characters, you should have an actual argument. I mean examples, excerpts from Sakurai's interviews, parallels with previous speculation cycles (which shouldn't be used as concrete proof like they have been because this is a different speculation cycle, it's a precedent, and doesn't mean much), references to previous game's files, Nintendo's inner workings or current direction, etc. Not just "Sakurai always does this" or "x character isn't in this so I'm not going to believe it." Those are opinions. Not arguments. There's a difference.

Also, if you're going to swing at box theory, I expect an argument comparable to the one laid out for it, which I still have yet to see. All I've seen so far is a disconnected set of hypotheticals varying in quality, none of which compare to the connected evidence for box theory. I also dislike the vindictiveness of those who oppose box theory. I've seen people here, on this website, get hate thrown at them solely for playing Devil's Advocate. Not even supporting box theory, but just saying why it may be true, and getting hate and incredulity thrown at them because of that. This is speculation for a video game on the internet, not a violent political argument or epic battle for truth where one side needs to obliterate the other.

Like, can we just agree to disagree and drop the topic? If you don't believe box theory, fine, but just don't get your hopes up for 5-7 more characters. If you believe box theory, great, I say always plan for the worst and hope for the best, so whatever happens'll just happen. At this point fixation and confirmation bias have kicked in and neither side is going to convince the other of anything, so what's the point?

I'm going to finish my homework and go to bed. Hopefully when I come back we'll have finally put this damn box in the attic where it belongs.

EDIT: Also listen to Thinkaman Thinkaman . Dude knows what he's saying. That's it. Goodnight.
 
Last edited:

Luigi The President

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
9,728
Location
Rogueport
From the standpoint of someone who was a part of Sm4sh speculation, it's scary to see people get their hopes up like this. People vehemently denying Box Theory or discrediting Vergeben solely because they want more, or they want something different. I experienced similar things occur during Sm4sh speculation. When Gematsu became big people doubted it because it didn't have Ridley or K. Rool or Dixie. Fake leaks like Tower of Smash got attention solely because they contained popular characters and entertained the idea of characters being unlocked if you communicated between the two versions, which allowed fans to continue "speculation" (or keep their hopes alive instead of accepting reality). I also refuse to let people forget that the fanbase took "RIDLEY IS IN THE CLOUDS" seriously, because that's absolutely ridiculous.

Guess what happened when the ESRB leak came out and the Shulk trailer confirmed it a week after?

Chaos. I often go to the example of a user cursing out the entire leaks group, and most of us remember how hated Dark Pit was at the time, as many saw him stealing a roster spot from their character (if there's one thing to be happy about, it's that this argument is all but dead this speculation cycle). Fans of the Duck Hunt Dog remember the ire drawn towards their character because he was the last to be officially revealed, and he wasn't a popular character. Now that we have hindsight, we can realize that Dark Pit was an easy clone to make, and that the Duck Hunt Dog is an iconic Nintendo character, but at the time all that some fans could see is red, and those fans were very loud and caused a lot of chaos in the community.

Expectations are a very dangerous thing. It's why I've made an active effort to address people whenever they say "I expect x" or "y is a shoe-in," because no character is a lock for this game until they are confirmed. Its the same with any theory or leak. The only reason I back box theory is due to the evidence provided, and the fact that any argument against it is as flimsy as cardboard. Of course, box theory itself is based on hypotheticals, but the way that they all come together perfectly makes me inclined to not call it coincidence. When I see people try to dispute it with "Incineroar and Ken can't be our next reveal" or "Sakurai always trolls his fans, there's sure to be more" or making other straw grasps to disprove it I see this speculation scene going down that same route that Sm4sh speculation did, and I don't want that. Especially because this speculation cycle has gotten a lot of people's hopes up for their favorite character, and I can all-too-clearly see those hopes crashing down when the full roster leaks, leading to something worse than the post-ESRB fallout for Sm4sh.

Mind you, it's okay if you don't want to believe box theory. If you want more characters, power to you. I also agree that those who are trying to temper expectations for the sake of the fandom shouldn't be so quick to jump at others. However, if you're going to try to disprove box theory, or argue that we're going to get more characters, you should have an actual argument. I mean examples, excerpts from Sakurai's interviews, parallels with previous speculation cycles (which shouldn't be used as concrete proof like they have been because this is a different speculation cycle, it's a precedent, and doesn't mean much), references to previous game's files, Nintendo's inner workings or current direction, etc. Not just "Sakurai always does this" or "x character isn't in this so I'm not going to believe it." Those are opinions. Not arguments. There's a difference.

Also, if you're going to swing at box theory, I expect an argument comparable to the one laid out for it, which I still have yet to see. All I've seen so far is a disconnected set of hypotheticals varying in quality, none of which compare to the connected evidence for box theory. I also dislike the vindictiveness of those who oppose box theory. I've seen people here, on this website, get hate thrown at them solely for playing Devil's Advocate. Not even supporting box theory, but just saying why it may be true, and getting hate and incredulity thrown at them because of that. This is speculation for a video game on the internet, not a violent political argument or epic battle for truth where one side needs to obliterate the other.

Like, can we just agree to disagree and drop the topic? If you don't believe box theory, fine, but just don't get your hopes up for 5-7 more characters. If you believe box theory, great, I say always plan for the worst and hope for the best, so whatever happens'll just happen. At this point fixation and confirmation bias has kicked in and neither side is going to convince the other of anything, so what's the point?

I'm going to finish my homework and go to bed. Hopefully when I come back we'll have finally put this damn box in the attic where it belongs.
Here is the problem.

Every single time a post like this occurs someone responds with a fitting counterpoint.
This counterpoint is dragged down for some reason or another.

We then go back.
And forth.
And back.
And forth.
And back.
And forth.

For a page and a half minimum.

It is an honest to god civil war in this thread.

I have seen complete attacks on both sides.

That's why this won't end until the good lord, named Vergey, comes down and blesses us with a straight answer to this box theory.

And that's my thesis thanks TPC back to you.
 

Soulsaint

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
163
Working on mine

Down Smash: Table Smash, buries opponents

Up B: no clue yet

neutral B: Fire Crotch blast (don't know what move he actually uses when he does that fire swirl thing)

Side B: Darkest Lariat

Down B: needs to be a command grab of.some sort, he is still a wrestler (could be switched with side B)

Final Smash: Malicious Moonsault

Throw: similar to mario spinning

Up throw: pile driver
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
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Messages
6,535
Location
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NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
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i haven't seen these anywhere, you got images or anything?
To be honest, if you want my personal opinion, the website icon stuff has been widely agreed to mean nothing.

It would require an implausible number of new characters, all from series like Wii Fit that are hard to believe. It's far more likely that the web designer started making black icons, realized that not all of the series needed them, and stopped at some indeterminate point that tells us nothing.
 

Luigi The President

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Messages
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Well. About time for me to go to bed.

Currently I'm praying that, as what happened this morning, Verge comes back tomorrow with an earth-shattering piece of info and we can go from there. Is that likely? I dunno man. I'm just hoping Verge's putting everything towards finding out if the Box Theory is the truth or not so this can end.

And I know. Yes. Verge is a leaker. He could be wrong.
But I will take that one dead king who died in battle if he can give us a credible leak.
 
Last edited:

Noipoi

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Messages
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Location
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Alright, to just, cool off a bit.


If we're mostly on board with Verg being right, what's Incineroar's Specials?


Side-B is obviously Darkest Lariat

And I imagine his standard B would be Fire Spin from his concept art
Neutral Special-Fire Fang.
Attacks with teeth made of flame from it's belt.

Side Special-Darkest Lariat.
Ignites it's fists and rushes side to side in a flaming tornado.

Up Special-Cross Chop.
Charges upwards with it's wrists crossed in an X formation. Uncrosses it's wrists sharply at the apex of it's jump and goes into free fall.

Down Special-Outrage.
Charges for a moment, then lashes out with several wicked punches, claws, bites and kicks.
The longer the charge, the more damage.
As sacrifice for it's massive damage, it damages the user quite a bit as well.
 

osby

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Messages
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From the standpoint of someone who was a part of Sm4sh speculation, it's scary to see people get their hopes up like this. People vehemently denying Box Theory or discrediting Vergeben solely because they want more, or they want something different. I experienced similar things occur during Sm4sh speculation. When Gematsu became big people doubted it because it didn't have Ridley or K. Rool or Dixie. Fake leaks like Tower of Smash got attention solely because they contained popular characters and entertained the idea of characters being unlocked if you communicated between the two versions, which allowed fans to continue "speculation" (or keep their hopes alive instead of accepting reality). I also refuse to let people forget that the fanbase took "RIDLEY IS IN THE CLOUDS" seriously, because that's absolutely ridiculous.

Guess what happened when the ESRB leak came out and the Shulk trailer confirmed it a week after?

Chaos. I often go to the example of a user cursing out the entire leaks group, and most of us remember how hated Dark Pit was at the time, as many saw him stealing a roster spot from their character (if there's one thing to be happy about, it's that this argument is all but dead this speculation cycle). Fans of the Duck Hunt Dog remember the ire drawn towards their character because he was the last to be officially revealed, and he wasn't a popular character. Now that we have hindsight, we can realize that Dark Pit was an easy clone to make, and that the Duck Hunt Dog is an iconic Nintendo character, but at the time all that some fans could see is red, and those fans were very loud and caused a lot of chaos in the community.

Expectations are a very dangerous thing. It's why I've made an active effort to address people whenever they say "I expect x" or "y is a shoe-in," because no character is a lock for this game until they are confirmed. Its the same with any theory or leak. The only reason I back box theory is due to the evidence provided, and the fact that any argument against it is as flimsy as cardboard. Of course, box theory itself is based on hypotheticals, but the way that they all come together perfectly makes me inclined to not call it coincidence. When I see people try to dispute it with "Incineroar and Ken can't be our next reveal" or "Sakurai always trolls his fans, there's sure to be more" or making other straw grasps to disprove it I see this speculation scene going down that same route that Sm4sh speculation did, and I don't want that. Especially because this speculation cycle has gotten a lot of people's hopes up for their favorite character, and I can all-too-clearly see those hopes crashing down when the full roster leaks, leading to something worse than the post-ESRB fallout for Sm4sh.

Mind you, it's okay if you don't want to believe box theory. If you want more characters, power to you. I also agree that those who are trying to temper expectations for the sake of the fandom shouldn't be so quick to jump at others. However, if you're going to try to disprove box theory, or argue that we're going to get more characters, you should have an actual argument. I mean examples, excerpts from Sakurai's interviews, parallels with previous speculation cycles (which shouldn't be used as concrete proof like they have been because this is a different speculation cycle, it's a precedent, and doesn't mean much), references to previous game's files, Nintendo's inner workings or current direction, etc. Not just "Sakurai always does this" or "x character isn't in this so I'm not going to believe it." Those are opinions. Not arguments. There's a difference.

Also, if you're going to swing at box theory, I expect an argument comparable to the one laid out for it, which I still have yet to see. All I've seen so far is a disconnected set of hypotheticals varying in quality, none of which compare to the connected evidence for box theory. I also dislike the vindictiveness of those who oppose box theory. I've seen people here, on this website, get hate thrown at them solely for playing Devil's Advocate. Not even supporting box theory, but just saying why it may be true, and getting hate and incredulity thrown at them because of that. This is speculation for a video game on the internet, not a violent political argument or epic battle for truth where one side needs to obliterate the other.

Like, can we just agree to disagree and drop the topic? If you don't believe box theory, fine, but just don't get your hopes up for 5-7 more characters. If you believe box theory, great, I say always plan for the worst and hope for the best, so whatever happens'll just happen. At this point fixation and confirmation bias has kicked in and neither side is going to convince the other of anything, so what's the point?

I'm going to finish my homework and go to bed. Hopefully when I come back we'll have finally put this damn box in the attic where it belongs.

EDIT: Also listen to Thinkaman Thinkaman . Dude knows what he's saying. That's it. Goodnight.
This post makes more sense when you look at your signature and icon.
 

Shroob

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I don't mean to be terse. It's just a little fatiguing to see people set themselves up for failure/disappointment, and let their biases invert the priority of their sources.

These are our first-order sources, either broadcast from the director of the game in a heavily edited video presentation to the entire world, or published in his personal column in Famitsu: (english sources quoted, links to Source Gaming where applicable)
Our first-order inferences are things which might not be explicit, but come from the games themselves. We only ignore these when we are explicitly told otherwise.
  • Every game has featured new characters, stages, items, Pokemon, and (since Brawl) Assist Trophies.
  • Every game has featured a few secret characters.
    • We were told explicitly that this will not be the case this time.
  • The following Smash 4 costumes are mysterious missing from footage so far, or the demo:
    • Daisy
    • Dark Samus
  • Assist Trophies characters are not playable characters.
  • The following noteworthy Assist Trophies from Smash 4 are mysteriously missing from footage so far:
    • Dark Samus
    • Isabelle
    • Magnus
    • Saki
    • Shadow
    • Skull Kid
    • Tingle
  • Most non-echo Smash characters are overwhelmingly:
    • A playable protagonist/Pokemon (53/68), a recurring series villain (6/68), or a recurring series princess (4/68).
      • Exceptions are Falco, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, Isabelle.
    • Relevant in games within the last ~8 years (60/68).
      • Exceptions are Ness, Ice Climbers, Roy, Ike, Lucas, ROB, Simon, and K. Rool.
  • Many new characters announced for Smash Ultimate were already a big part of Smash 4:
    • Wii U Trophies (7/9)
    • 3DS Trophies (6/9)
    • Mii Costumes (5/9)
  • Noteworthy Mii Costumes not directly connected to other Smash 4 DLC content or deconfirmed as Smash 5 fighters include:
    • Chrom
    • Daisy
    • Inkling
    • K. Rool
    • Isabelle
    • Barbara the Bat
    • Majora's Mask (Skull Kid)
    • Lloyd
    • Virigi
    • Geno
    • Gil
    • Tails
  • Echo fighters always match their original's series.
    • Falcon -> Ganondorf was a one-off exception in a different context; Melee's rushed development almost saw Ganon cut, and his Spaceworld model fitting Falcon's skeleton was considered "lucky."
  • At least one new character has been revealed during every Nintendo Direct or roundtable that highlights Smash.
    • 0 occurances of 3+ characters revealed at once
    • 5 occurrences of 2 characters revealed (2 of these were DLC pairs)
    • 11 occurrences of 1 character revealed (3 of these were DLC)
    • Only 2 non-secret characters (Robin and Shulk) were revealed in videos posted outside of a Direct.
    • We can't really establish a pattern for echoes with only 2 real data points.
  • Nintendo's Directs, counting only general Directs in every region + Smash-specific Directs, happen about every 2 months.
    • Mean: ~75 days
    • Median: 60 days
    • We had a Direct 5 days ago, and there are only 73 days until launch week. It would be unprecedented to either not have 1 more Direct, or to have 2 in that time.
Our second-order sources are people allegedly connected to development who are providing additional information, but have some claim to accuracy:
  • Vergeben has reported Ken and Incineroar from 4 sources, and "a Square Enix rep" from a single one. (With Vergeben himself suggesting perhaps it is DLC) He has also reported "some form of Minecraft representation." Vergeben was previously correct on:
    • No cuts from 4
    • ICs and Snake
    • Ridley
    • Simon
    • Isabelle
  • CoroCoro stated that there are 108 stages in their article on the 8.8 Direct, under the screenshot of the 103 stages.
    • This contradicts both the Direct and Sakurai's column, and CoroCoro themselves did not acknowledge the difference or treat it as new information.
Our second-order inferences are our observations about official game materials. We only ignore these if we can plausibly generate a more likely story for their existence.
  • The ordering of characters on the side of the special edition box render is very peculiar. While the author made sure to remove Isabelle and the remaining character slot, the consistent order of the characters suggests an empty spot (for an echo) on only the lower row of the opposing side.
    • This would match Ken, and could not match Shadow or Dixie.
  • There are unexplained additional series icon assets on the website for series with multiple characters, as well as a few other series with only one character.
    • It seems dubious that our "few" new characters would come from series such as Wii Fit or Duck Hunt.
  • The website is updating characters, stages, items, assist trophies, and Pokemon at a rate that very closely lines up with the December 7th release date, suggesting there there will be minimal new material to cover further.
    • While blog posts continued for Brawl and Smash 4, those updates mostly covered unlock able secret content that could not be covered before release day.
  • Unofficial polls attempting to guess to simulate the results of the official Smash Ballot.
    • These tend to only sample a single region, and selectively oversample a particular sub-community, so accuracy is limited.
Past this, we just have gut feelings that amount to nothing factual--just an echo chamber of random people on the Internet talking to each other about tertiary video game characters and background furniture.

Keep things anchored to reality, and we'll all be a lot happier.
Should you add Chrom to this?


Swole Ike had a Chrom color palette that got cut, though I'm unsure if it's due to the whole "4 baby man Ike, 4 macho man Ike"
 

DaybreakHorizon

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Here is the problem.

Every single time a post like this occurs someone responds with a fitting counterpoint.
This counterpoint is dragged down for some reason or another.

We then go back.
And forth.
And back.
And forth.
And back.
And forth.

For a page and a half minimum.

It is an honest to god civil war in this thread.

I have seen complete attacks on both sides.

That's why this won't end until the good lord, named Vergey, comes down and blesses us with a straight answer to this box theory.

And that's my thesis thanks TPC back to you.
I'm back.

Let's talk about DLC.

  • How many characters do you think we're getting?
  • Who do you think will be the first DLC character?
  • Which character(s) do you think would cause the most hype, be it in the community or overall?
  • What additional series/companies would you like to see represented as DLC or could see being represented as DLC?
  • Do you think there'll be a focus on third party DLC or first party DLC, or a balance of the two?
  • Who would you like to see as DLC?
  • How do you think DLC will be structured?
  • Will characters be sold in packs or separately? Will there be a season pass?
  • Do you think we'll get more than just characters and stages (maybe more Mii Costumes, or a new class of purchasable items)?
  • What are some potential character packs you can think of/would like to see?
  • Do you think we might see new modes as DLC?
  • Will you support DLC for this game? What would make you want to purchase it or not want to purchase it?

That should be enough questions. Hopefully it lasts us two pages. That'd sure be nice.
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

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At the risk of sounding like an old geezer, 10 years ago we waited 631 days for the game, without all these fancy video presentations. And if we didn't get our favorite character in our roster of 39? DLC? No, we had to wait 2417 days for the next game.

178 days of waiting, for a game of probably 76 characters? Followed by DLC for years? Easy mode, baby.
 

PsychoIncarnate

The Eternal Will of the Swarm
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I don't mean to be terse. It's just a little fatiguing to see people set themselves up for failure/disappointment, and let their biases invert the priority of their sources.

These are our first-order sources, either broadcast from the director of the game in a heavily edited video presentation to the entire world, or published in his personal column in Famitsu: (english sources quoted, links to Source Gaming where applicable)
Our first-order inferences are things which might not be explicit, but come from the games themselves. We only ignore these when we are explicitly told otherwise.
  • Every game has featured new characters, stages, items, Pokemon, and (since Brawl) Assist Trophies.
  • Every game has featured a few secret characters.
    • We were told explicitly that this will not be the case this time.
  • The following Smash 4 costumes are mysterious missing from footage so far, or the demo:
    • Daisy
    • Dark Samus
  • Assist Trophies characters are not playable characters.
  • The following noteworthy Assist Trophies from Smash 4 are mysteriously missing from footage so far:
    • Dark Samus
    • Isabelle
    • Magnus
    • Saki
    • Shadow
    • Skull Kid
    • Tingle
  • Most non-echo Smash characters are overwhelmingly:
    • A playable protagonist/Pokemon (53/68), a recurring series villain (6/68), or a recurring series princess (4/68).
      • Exceptions are Falco, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt, Isabelle.
    • Relevant in games within the last ~8 years (60/68).
      • Exceptions are Ness, Ice Climbers, Roy, Ike, Lucas, ROB, Simon, and K. Rool.
  • Many new characters announced for Smash Ultimate were already a big part of Smash 4:
    • Wii U Trophies (7/9)
    • 3DS Trophies (6/9)
    • Mii Costumes (5/9)
  • Noteworthy Mii Costumes not directly connected to other Smash 4 DLC content or deconfirmed as Smash 5 fighters include:
    • Chrom
    • Daisy
    • Inkling
    • K. Rool
    • Isabelle
    • Barbara the Bat
    • Majora's Mask (Skull Kid)
    • Lloyd
    • Virigi
    • Geno
    • Gil
    • Tails
  • Echo fighters always match their original's series.
    • Falcon -> Ganondorf was a one-off exception in a different context; Melee's rushed development almost saw Ganon cut, and his Spaceworld model fitting Falcon's skeleton was considered "lucky."
  • At least one new character has been revealed during every Nintendo Direct or roundtable that highlights Smash.
    • 0 occurances of 3+ characters revealed at once
    • 5 occurrences of 2 characters revealed (2 of these were DLC pairs)
    • 11 occurrences of 1 character revealed (3 of these were DLC)
    • Only 2 non-secret characters (Robin and Shulk) were revealed in videos posted outside of a Direct.
    • We can't really establish a pattern for echoes with only 2 real data points.
  • Nintendo's Directs, counting only general Directs in every region + Smash-specific Directs, happen about every 2 months.
    • Mean: ~75 days
    • Median: 60 days
    • We had a Direct 5 days ago, and there are only 73 days until launch week. It would be unprecedented to either not have 1 more Direct, or to have 2 in that time.
Our second-order sources are people allegedly connected to development who are providing additional information, but have some claim to accuracy:
  • Vergeben has reported Ken and Incineroar from 4 sources, and "a Square Enix rep" from a single one. (With Vergeben himself suggesting perhaps it is DLC) He has also reported "some form of Minecraft representation." Vergeben was previously correct on:
    • No cuts from 4
    • ICs and Snake
    • Ridley
    • Simon
    • Isabelle
  • CoroCoro stated that there are 108 stages in their article on the 8.8 Direct, under the screenshot of the 103 stages.
    • This contradicts both the Direct and Sakurai's column, and CoroCoro themselves did not acknowledge the difference or treat it as new information.
Our second-order inferences are our observations about official game materials. We only ignore these if we can plausibly generate a more likely story for their existence.
  • The ordering of characters on the side of the special edition box render is very peculiar. While the author made sure to remove Isabelle and the remaining character slot, the consistent order of the characters suggests an empty spot (for an echo) on only the lower row of the opposing side.
    • This would match Ken, and could not match Shadow or Dixie.
  • There are unexplained additional series icon assets on the website for series with multiple characters, as well as a few other series with only one character.
    • It seems dubious that our "few" new characters would come from series such as Wii Fit or Duck Hunt.
  • The website is updating characters, stages, items, assist trophies, and Pokemon at a rate that very closely lines up with the December 7th release date, suggesting there there will be minimal new material to cover further.
    • While blog posts continued for Brawl and Smash 4, those updates mostly covered unlock able secret content that could not be covered before release day.
  • Unofficial polls attempting to guess to simulate the results of the official Smash Ballot.
    • These tend to only sample a single region, and selectively oversample a particular sub-community, so accuracy is limited.
Past this, we just have gut feelings that amount to nothing factual--just an echo chamber of random people on the Internet talking to each other about tertiary video game characters and background furniture.

Keep things anchored to reality, and we'll all be a lot happier.
Dillon is also missing as an AT from Smash Wii U and 3DS. Maybe he's not that big, but is Saki?
 

staindgrey

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To be honest, if you want my personal opinion, the website icon stuff has been widely agreed to mean nothing.

It would require an implausible number of new characters, all from series like Wii Fit that are hard to believe. It's far more likely that the web designer started making black icons, realized that not all of the series needed them, and stopped at some indeterminate point that tells us nothing.
Which is much more likely than people outside of web design think.

The website I made for our furniture store, then the one I made for its sister company, both had a bunch of test images and junk pages that I had no reason to go back through and clear out. Hosting a website isn't exactly super expensive; it's not like you need to make every byte count. So if you're not using an asset anymore, it would actually take more time and effort to go back in and delete it than to just leave it alone.
 
Last edited:

WolfCypher

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Expectations are a very dangerous thing. It's why I've made an active effort to address people whenever they say "I expect x" or "y is a shoe-in," because no character is a lock for this game until they are confirmed..
If nothing else, please, take this away from his post, ppl.
 

Luigi The President

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Rogueport
I'm back.

Let's talk about DLC. How many characters do you think we're getting? Who do you think will be the first DLC character? Who would you like to see as DLC? How do you think DLC will be structured? Will characters be sold in packs or separately? Will there be a season pass? Do you think we'll get more than just characters and stages (maybe more Mii Costumes, or a new class of purchasable items)? What are some potential character packs you can think of/would like to see? Do you think we might see new modes as DLC?

That's way more than enough questions. Hopefully it lasts us two pages. That'd sure be nice.
Oh boy. Oh boy. I love ya TPC.

Okay.

DLC. We're gonna get a whole lot more than 4 that's for sure. We got 7 there, despite the Wii U's very poor lifestyle and the short post-release dev cycle of that game. So with the Switch's landmark success and this dev cycle I'm expecting, well, a damn lot of newcomers.

First DLC depends on the base roster. Can't really say there. Hoping it'd be someone like Banjo-Kazooie. Hoping for Geno.
DLC will probably come out like every 4-6 months. Come out probably separately and at the end of 4 character releases sold in a pack together. Season pass most likely. I could see more Mii Costumes definitely.

Echoes character packs. I doubt new modes will be DLC.

At the risk of sounding like an old geezer, 10 years ago we waited 631 days for the game, without all these fancy video presentations. And if we didn't get our favorite character in our roster of 39? DLC? No, we had to wait 2417 days for the next game.

178 days of waiting, for a game of probably 76 characters? Followed by DLC for years? Easy mode, baby.
...that's...mindblowing actually. Thanks for this perspective.
 

Darkraid

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,467
Location
Kalos
I'm back.

Let's talk about DLC.

  • How many characters do you think we're getting?
  • Who do you think will be the first DLC character?
  • Who would you like to see as DLC?
  • How do you think DLC will be structured?
  • Will characters be sold in packs or separately? Will there be a season pass?
  • Do you think we'll get more than just characters and stages (maybe more Mii Costumes, or a new class of purchasable items)?
  • What are some potential character packs you can think of/would like to see?
  • Do you think we might see new modes as DLC?

That should be enough questions. Hopefully it lasts us two pages. That'd sure be nice.

As much as possible. Will support all the way, no questions asked
 

Thinkaman

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Nintendo has been vocal about the success of Smash 4 DLC in their investor briefings, referencing it as the model for their future online content plans as an organization. They have also been very aggressive in updating ARMS, Splatoon, and Mario Kart. (The series most similar to Smash)

Robust DLC support has a lot of evidence for it, it's not just a fan dream nor mere common sense. I would guess we'll hear the start of a robust DLC plan in the final Smash Direct.
 

staindgrey

I have a YouTube channel.
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I'm back.

Let's talk about DLC.

  • How many characters do you think we're getting?
  • Who do you think will be the first DLC character?
  • Which character(s) do you think would cause the most hype, be it in the community or overall?
  • What additional series/companies would you like to see represented as DLC or could see being represented as DLC?
  • Do you think there'll be a focus on third party DLC or first party DLC, or a balance of the two?
  • Who would you like to see as DLC?
  • How do you think DLC will be structured?
  • Will characters be sold in packs or separately? Will there be a season pass?
  • Do you think we'll get more than just characters and stages (maybe more Mii Costumes, or a new class of purchasable items)?
  • What are some potential character packs you can think of/would like to see?
  • Do you think we might see new modes as DLC?

That should be enough questions. Hopefully it lasts us two pages. That'd sure be nice.
For the sake of steering us toward a more positive discussion:

I think we're in for a similar, if not identical, DLC structure as in Smash 4. I don't see Sakurai liking the idea of a season pass that promises X amount of characters by Y date; he seems to genuinely approach DLC post-launch outside of the initially planned characters, like Mewtwo and Lucas.

I think characters will be sold individually for $5, there will be no season pass, there will be no more echo characters, and we will see more Mii costumes and stages. It's the safe bet, I know, but I just don't see any motivation to change it. Assuming that the Switch stays Nintendo's flagship console for a long time and Smash (and its DLC) sells well, I could see them consistently updating it with new paid content, a la SFV, over the course of the next three years, unless they begin planning for Smash as a launch title on whatever their next console is. But I think they'll be content with just supporting Ultimate long-term and harvesting all that DLC money.
 
Last edited:

Jedisupersonic

Eight Leaves One Kame Style
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I kind of hope we get some cosmetic DLC too, the mii costumes seemed to be a testing ground, or so I assumed.
 

Darkraid

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I would love ninty to promote ATs and mii costumes into playables + echoes. We need plenty of echoes
 
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