Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NintenRob]

Guys... I don't think Min Min or ARMS in general is making it back.

What prompted this? I think there would be some drastic cuts for us to lose a first party franchise. And I'd probably put ARMS above some of the retros and maybe even Punch-Out and Wii Fit (punch out especially, despite Little Mac's western popularity doesn't offer much as a franchise)

 

[Garo]

Cutting the only 1st party fighting game rep from your cross-over fighting game seems stupid.

I also don't think Min Min's "polarizing design" is a point against her inclusion, at least as long as Sakurai's involved:

 

[Garo]

What prompted this?

Doramigi winning Lvl up expo I reckon.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Guys... I don't think Min Min or ARMS in general is making it back.

I think she will come back but more balanced. I don’t think there will be a new character or anything.

My opinion is that Spring Man would have been more one dimensional if he was picked instead.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Regarding Bowser, I can't decide if I would like his Final Smash to continue to be Giga Bowser or to have Fury Bowser be it. Fury Bowser is certainly much better as a Final Smash, but on the other hand Giga Bowser has become symbolic for the Super Smash Bros series since it started in Adventure Mode of Super Smash Bros Melee as the final boss when Bowser is defeated with the conditions that it should be on normal difficulty or higher and in the accumulated 18 minutes from the start of Adventure Mode. While in the subsequent games of the Super Smash Bros. series until Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, Giga Bowser existed as Bowser's Final Smash. Now if in Super Smash Bros. 6 or subsequent games in the series they replace Giga Bowser with Fury Bowser as a Final Smash I won't have a problem, but I wouldn't want Giga Bowser to be replaced for nostalgic reasons.

Both could co-exist if every fighter gets both cinematic and transformation Final Smashes.

 

[Will]

ARMS could make it back. We’re still on the Switch family and it’s an in-house game. They could even be making the sequel as I type this.

Besides, why cut her? She’s fresh enough, unique enough, goon catered popular enough

 

[DarthEnderX]

Cutting the only 1st party fighting game rep from your cross-over fighting game seems stupid.

If ARMS is a fighting game, then so is Punch-Out.

 

[FazDude]

Guys... I don't think Min Min or ARMS in general is making it back.

We'll probably still get some ARMS content - I can see the music making it back in at bare minimum, and Spring Stadium is a safer pick for returning stages.

That said, if Min Min herself comes back (or we get a new ARMS fighter) - I pray she gets reworked. She's a cool character, but her Ult kit is a huge miss for me.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And now I finally found the source.
Page 210 of The History of Sonic the Hedgehog.

View attachment 402139

Top 10 sentences that aged horribly.

If ARMS is a fighting game, then so is Punch-Out.

...What do you define as a "fighting game", Darth?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If ARMS is a fighting game, then so is Punch-Out.

Is that really a thing people debate?

It clearly is one.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Is that really a thing people debate?

It clearly is one.

It's Darth being a contrarian.

Only hardcore FGC people would argue that it's not a real fighting game.

 

[Laniv]

Guys... I don't think Min Min or ARMS in general is making it back.

Whoa what why, what happened

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's Darth being a contrarian.

He only cares about fighting people online who disagree with his adamant notions on stuff like no cuts, not actually fighting in Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Whoa what why, what happened

Just the general vitriol against Min Min and the longer we go without an ARMS sequel, the less likely I think it returning is. It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

Well it is the Mario Kart team, and no matter how much they want to make ARMS 2, they've been busy the past 8 years with:

• Tour
• The Booster Course Pass
• World

Your best best is that it would've only recently started development...and they won't make a Switch 2 version of Nintendogs for a while, because the MK/ARMS team also worked on those games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Just the general vitriol against Min Min and the longer we go without an ARMS sequel, the less likely I think it returning is. It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

Damn, those secret Star Fox, Mother, Duck Hunt, Ice Climber and Punch-Out sequels you got your hands to are pretty good, right?

Joking aside, how long it's been since ARMS got a game would not be indicative of its chances of coming back to Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I believe ARMS's genre is Arena Fighter, along with other titles like Naruto Shippuden and Pokkén Tournament.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Damn, those secret Star Fox, Mother, Duck Hunt, Ice Climber and Punch-Out sequels you got your hands to are pretty good, right?

Joking aside, how long it's been since ARMS got a game would not be indicative of its chances of coming back to Smash.

The main difference is that those other franchises either have multiple games or are token surprise/retro characters.

Their inclusions also don't have the baggage Min Min seems to have.

Don't get me wrong, I still want ARMS to have a character. But with how the roster is near guaranteed to have a substantial amount of cuts, I don't think Min Min will be high priority.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I believe ARMS's genre is Arena Fighter, along with other titles like Naruto Shippuden and Pokkén Tournament.

And even then, it's so substantially different from them that there's a case to be made about ARMS not being that.

In true Nintendo fashion, it feels like its own thing that doesn't fit any category (like how Smash was before more platform fighters started to pop up, giving birth to that genre's name) but still has enough of the basic principles that you can still fit it in the broader "fighting game" umbrella.

The main difference is that those other franchises either have multiple games or are token surprise/retro characters.

Their inclusions also don't have the baggage Min Min seems to have.

Don't get me wrong, I still want ARMS to have a character. But with how the roster is near guaranteed to have a substantial amount of cuts, I don't think Min Min will be high priority.

Like Nelson, said, the Mario Kart devs were probably way too busy to really take a deep dive into ARMS again.

The only piece of damning evidence is Nintendo quietly canceling the graphic novel, which we found out 4 years ago but was so subtle and behind the scenes that I wouldn't be shocked if some people still believed it was happening.

And even that can be canceled out by Nintendo bothering to make a free Switch 2 upgrade. That's not insignificant given the lack of care ARMS has gotten since, ironically enough, Min Min got in Smash. Like I said, they could've easily just... done nothing.

 

[Laniv]

Just the general vitriol against Min Min and the longer we go without an ARMS sequel, the less likely I think it returning is. It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

Oh yeah, I know how that feeling goes

I can't really speak on ARMS itself getting a sequel but I feel like Min Min having a unique playstyle is enough for her to slip back in

 

[MBRedboy31]

IMO, the thing that denotes a fighting game is that it’s focused on fighting “equivalent” opponents, either real players who play as the same characters you can use, or against bots who also use playable characters and simulate how real players play.

The biggest thing about that is that good game design requires that enemy characters’ attacks must be telegraphed and reactable, but, since you’re fighting a human opponent (or a simulation of a real opponent,) it is a rare case where the enemy having unreactable attacks is permissible.

A beat-em-up (Streets of Rage, Final Fight, ect.) is focused on fighting weak mooks that are predictable. Punch-Out!! is focused on fighting large bosses that are predictable (but still very tough.) There’s a reason a lot of classic boss fights in actual fighting games (Akuma, Geese, Rugal, Gil, ect.) are so ludicrously infamous, since they are OP AND are unreactable.

ARMS is a fighting game, then, since you fight equivalent opponents using playable characters. I guess we have to debate why it’s not a third person shooter instead of a fighting game, though, and I’d argue that it does have the typical attack-block-grab triangle that’s usable by all characters, as well as a typical fighting game round system, although neither of those are as necessary to a fighting game.

 

[Will]

ARMS is a fighting game.

If it isn’t, then is Smash a party game like the haters who gatekeep us out of the FGC claim?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is that really a thing people debate?

It clearly is one.

Well, Garo just called Min Min "the only 1st party fighting game rep" in Smash. So they must not consider Little Mac to be one.

It's Darth being a contrarian.

Only hardcore FGC people would argue that it's not a real fighting game.

He only cares about fighting people online who disagree with his adamant notions on stuff like no cuts, not actually fighting in Smash.

Except that's literally the opposite of what I was saying, because I was saying ARMS and Punch-Out are both fighting games.

But nice of you guys to turn it into a personal attack.

I believe ARMS's genre is Arena Fighter, along with other titles like Naruto Shippuden and Pokkén Tournament.

Aren't arena fighters considered a subdivision fighting games though?

The same way Smash is a "platform fighter", but platform fighters are still fighting games.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Aren't arena fighters considered a subdivision fighting games though?

The same way Smash is a "platform fighter", but platform fighters are still fighting games.

Ye.

In fact, part of the reason why I mentioned Pokkén Tournament was to avoid "but those aren't real fighting games" because arena fighters generally aren't taken seriously. Heck, I've even seen ARMS be referred to as "not even a game, but a tech demo".

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Except that's literally the opposite of what I was saying, because I was saying ARMS and Punch-Out are both fighting games.

But nice of you guys to turn it into a personal attack.

Oh... well, I'm kinda used to your opinions not matching mine so I'm sorry for that.

Still don't see Punch-Out as a fighting game outside of Wii's versus mode though. That's like calling Sifu a fighting game.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Just the general vitriol against Min Min and the longer we go without an ARMS sequel, the less likely I think it returning is. It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

I mean I'd kinda be surprised if we didn't get an ARMS sequel at some point considering it sold better than Xenoblade 2 by a little bit, but yeah Mario Kart is gonna kinda command that ARMS take a back seat for a bit since it's a much bigger series.

And of course all the stuff I said last night about us having never lost a full first-party playable franchise and all that. Plus like others have said, we are still on the Switch family of systems, and outside of DragxDrive I think it's still one of the newest IP Nintendo has in general, let alone ones in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Just the general vitriol against Min Min and the longer we go without an ARMS sequel, the less likely I think it returning is. It's almost been ten years since ARMS released.

Having vitriol against a character's moveset doesn't increase chances of getting cut.

After all, Sonic never got cut or remade despite desperately needing it

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Having vitriol against a character's moveset doesn't increase chances of getting cut.

After all, Sonic never got cut or remade despite desperately needing it

Insert another vitriolic tirade from me about how much Lucario sucks lmao

But yeah if the team knows about any vitriol I'd assume they'd just take that to mean she needs a rebalancing. After all, Meta Knight didn't get cut from 4, they just kinda kneecapped him, same with Bayo into Ultimate, though obviously she wasn't gonna get cut from that lol

 

[CosmicEternity44]

You know, I don’t think characters would get cut due to sucking or having poor movesets. If they did, aside from maybe Ultimate, the likes of Mewtwo would not have come back as DLC in Smash 4.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Still don't see Punch-Out as a fighting game outside of Wii's versus mode though.

I'd say it's just as much a fighting game as Yie Ar Kung-fu or Street Fighter 1 are.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You know, I don’t think characters would get cut due to sucking or having poor movesets. If they did, aside from maybe Ultimate, the likes of Mewtwo would not have come back as DLC in Smash 4.

Did people dislike Mewtwo's moveset back in Melee? I feel like that came about in SSB4, though that may have just brought the issue back.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Did people dislike Mewtwo's moveset back in Melee? I feel like that came about in SSB4, though that may have just brought the issue back.

I am pretty sure they did. In fact, I am pretty sure if I recall that Mewtwo was among the bottom tiers on the tier list, if not THE bottom tier.

 

[Ivander]

Did people dislike Mewtwo's moveset back in Melee? I feel like that came about in SSB4, though that may have just brought the issue back.

The biggest issue with Mewtwo in Melee was with how slow he was in both attacks and speed. You could easily attack him while he's starting up most of his attacks and he was slower than most other characters. He also had a Forward-Air that required you to be very precise to hit with it.
He became a much better character in Smash 4 simply because he got a much needed speed boost for his attacks and general speed and got a much more forgivable Forward Air. He's not the best in Ultimate, but he still feels very playable because he can move fast and he can actually hit other characters.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Well, with what I said initially above as well as the second thing, I would say that, assuming Mewtwo was hated more competitively than casually, that still did not mean he was cut for being a bad character. There are different reasons.

In fact, I am sure Sakurai did not like the idea of Smash being competitive at all. That is why he added random tripping in Brawl where Mewtwo was cut from.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'd say it's just as much a fighting game as Yie Ar Kung-fu or Street Fighter 1 are.

Okay, I can agree with that take now. Very good comparisons.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

This could be my personal bias, but I don't think Min Min is near the top of the list to return.

While no first party series have been cut in Smash history aside from Icies in 4 due to 3DS tech problems, I feel like that's less a solid rule and moreso something that just hasn't had a chance to happen yet. Since Ultimate by its nature didn't cut anyone, the most recent step in this line of thinking was when no first party series were cut from Brawl to Smash 4. There were 33 First Party Vets then, now there are around 66-71 depending on how you count the miis and swap characters, literally double. In comparison to the number of series represented, there were 17 first parties series in Brawl with a fighter, compared to 25 now in Ultimate.

Put simply, 'all first party series should be brought back' just because it happened from Brawl to Smash 4 and ig Melee to Brawl just doesn't seem right to me given how different the playing field is. I haven't mentioned third parties yet, but they've come to cut out a larger and larger piece of Smashes roster as it's gone on, so the question of how necessary any one series is in terms of cuts has to be different now than it was then considering Brawl had just 2 Third Parties to consider, whereas Ultimate has 15 on the table with three having a secondary rep.

Min Min then, being so incredibly unpopular to fight, especially in Japan, I think genuinely might be solid reasoning for Sakurai to look over her when bringing other fighters back. I see Sonic not being cut mentioned as reasoning as to why this wouldn't happen, which I can see the logic in, but he's Sonic, I think it's fair to say he has bit more going for him outside of Moveset then Min Min does.

I guess to sum up, she just sorta fell on her face from the hype on reveal, to the moveset she got, to even the kinda unfortunate fate of ARMS as a game and series. I'm not a prophet, and the game still sold well enough to warrant a Smash inclusion a few years later, so idk, but I just don't see Min Min as a safe choice to stick around, especially if one of the best things going for her is simply that we haven't seen someone in her category come and go. If anything, I think that may be evidence she should be one of the first out the door, but that's just me.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well, with what I said initially above as well as the second thing, I would say that, assuming Mewtwo was hated more competitively than casually, that still did not mean he was cut for being a bad character. There are different reasons.

Given that he was planned to be in Brawl, it's likely that good ol' time constraints is what got him out, especially since he actually had some work done based on what was found.

Sakurai doesn't look at public perceptions as reasons to cut characters.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Given that he was planned to be in Brawl, it's likely that good ol' time constraints is what got him out, especially since he actually had some work done based on what was found.

Sakurai doesn't look at public perceptions as reasons to cut characters.

EXACTLY, Unikorn! If anyone thinks Sakurai did look at public perceptions while looking to cut characters, I find that astounding, and not in the positive way.

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think it'd be pretty cool to see the Elder Scrolls represented in Smash somehow, especially Oblivion. But DOOM probably has a better chance of getting in as Bethesda representation.

 

[chocolatejr9]

That's like calling Sifu a fighting game.

insert joke about the Game Awards here

I mean I'd kinda be surprised if we didn't get an ARMS sequel at some point considering it sold better than Xenoblade 2 by a little bit, but yeah Mario Kart is gonna kinda command that ARMS take a back seat for a bit since it's a much bigger series.

And of course all the stuff I said last night about us having never lost a full first-party playable franchise and all that. Plus like others have said, we are still on the Switch family of systems, and outside of DragxDrive I think it's still one of the newest IP Nintendo has in general, let alone ones in Smash.

Plot twist: we get ARMS 2, and they add the OG cast to Mario Kart as guest characters to promote it.

Real talk, though, I feel kinda 50/50 on ARMS getting a sequal. I wouldn't be surprised if it did, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. Feels like one of THOSE situations, if you ask me. Not sure what that would mean for Min Min in Smash, but frankly the next game already has a ton of unknown factors (including whether or not it even EXISTS), so who really knows here?